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I just beat ff9 last night and while I'd never say it's worse than ff3 boy did I not like that final boss gauntlet one bit making it the irritating capstone to my general widespread dislike of ff9.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:48
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:LR is one of the three Final Fantasy games with good, fun gameplay, neat bosses that actually stress using the different mechanics of combat and has a decent sense of humor about itself. I really don't get why people seem to think that FF12's gambit system is intended for you to simply eliminate the need to participate in a game. Considering it's at-will in terms of what gambits you set, you can really establish as much or as little control as you personally feel like, but even so, that doesn't mean you can just stop paying attention entirely. The gambit system does something very useful for a turn-based combat engine: it eliminates redundant button pressing. If you contrasted it to a typical battle in Final Fantasy VII, this becomes clear. Battle begins. You have three enemies, all of whom are weak enough to kill in one hit. You tap Attack for one character, then you select it for another, and then another. The characters attack, the enemies are vanquished. In Final Fantasy 12, that scenario plays out instantaneously--your characters all attack based upon the gambits you've established, and all the enemies die without input. Now, say in FFVII you encounter a more complicated group of enemies, perhaps enemies that put up defensive abilities? Well, you may want two characters to just keep attacking each round while the third applies buffs or healing abilities or deals with enemy attacks. There's no real need for you to just tap the attack button for the two other characters--having them auto attack allows for you to focus on support or spell casting or more strategic commands. This system is further added whereby combat is no longer segregated between two seperate zones. You traverse and engage in combat in the same plane, which means you can have battles on a larger scale than other FF games, and the combat system actually rewards and encourages you to try and chain big groups of kills together for experience bonuses or better drops. In my playing of the game I never felt like I was not participating actively in the combat--rather, I felt like I had a far broader range of control over what I was doing. The Urgen Yensa Sandsea, which everyone hates, was one of the funner areas for me because I'd just never stop fighting, chaining my way through more and more and more of those bug guys, swapping out characters to let them recover MP, managing my resources, and effectively utilizing a full six-man team to get something like 300 kill chains from one end of the map to the other. It was great fun, and more importantly, I didn't feel like I was restricted from doing things that I could do in previous FF games. In fact, due to how open the new system was, I felt that it had untethered itself from the classic turn-based styles and in the process had unlocked new potential.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:48
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I really don't get why people seem to think that FF12's gambit system is intended for you to simply eliminate the need to participate in a game. Considering it's at-will in terms of what gambits you set, you can really establish as much or as little control as you personally feel like, but even so, that doesn't mean you can just stop paying attention entirely. Because it does. Once you set up good gambits you can just stop paying attention. FFXII's problem is the combat system is very simplistic so the simple if-then commands actually do render 99% of fights in no need of button presses. FF always has simple combat systems but normally they have ways around that. FFXIII does it by making the simplicity part of the system. Older games allow for the illusion of interaction. FFXII is a game where you can set up automation of things you did in previous FF games and the end result is that it emphasizes just how shallow most of the fights are. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 23:52
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Aren't there pc ports of the 13 series? That'd be easy to port over to ps4.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:55
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Barudak posted:I just beat ff9 last night and while I'd never say it's worse than ff3 boy did I not like that final boss gauntlet one bit making it the irritating capstone to my general widespread dislike of ff9. Isn't it just two bosses? You can just leave after Deathguise.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:58
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ImpAtom posted:Because it does. Once you set up good gambits you can just stop paying attention. FFXII's problem is the combat system is very simplistic so the simple if-then commands actually do render 99% of fights in no need of button presses. But you're not at all obligated to do that. The only thing that really demands you set up a fully automated system is the super fight against Yiazmiat and its ilk. I could set up the game to automate only the stuff I wanted to, like automatically stealing at the start of a fight, attacking flying enemies with priority, things like that. It gave me far more control overall, not less. Then I could select the stuff I liked, like magic I'd never automate since I'd probably want a different spell combo for every other situation.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:58
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Schwartzcough posted:My favorite final boss is the abstract concept of death. Necron is my favorite final boss, design-wise.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:58
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8-Bit Scholar posted:But you're not at all obligated to do that. Yes you are because: A) The interface is awful and designed with the idea of automation B) There's no reason NOT to.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:59
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ImpAtom posted:Because it does. Once you set up good gambits you can just stop paying attention. FFXII's problem is the combat system is very simplistic so the simple if-then commands actually do render 99% of fights in no need of button presses. That's why they won't add a Steal gambit; so you always have to pay attention to steal stuff intelligently.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:00
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Schwartzcough posted:That's why they won't add a Steal gambit; so you always have to pay attention to steal stuff intelligently. Huh? There's a Steal gambit.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:05
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HD DAD posted:Necron is my favorite final boss, design-wise. Ultimecia actually had some pretty cool designs throughout the fight. Except for uh, whatever the final form was. If FF8 was a tougher game I could see the final boss fight being one of the most challenging. Four bosses in a row, with the ability to remove dead characters permanently and blow away part of your power source.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:05
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ImpAtom posted:Yes you are because: The first point I can't say much on, it's been far too long since I last played the game and maybe the interface is far worse than I remember. I didn't have any troubles, though, and controlled my party members largely manually while automating things that made things easier for me--like setting my mages to cast buffs as soon as they ran out. I found it engaging, at the very least. The second point, I dunno. If that's how it went for you, but I'd say the reason not to is that it becomes boring that way, so why do it? 8-Bit Scholar fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 00:07
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ApplesandOranges posted:Isn't it just two bosses? You can just leave after Deathguise. Its two slooooooow boss fights and I didn't know you could leave after deathguise. Legitimately it was so simultaneously boring and unfun that if the continue feature on mobile versions didn't exist I'd never have beaten it after wiping to necron after wiping to Kujas counter mechanic of boredom my first attempt. FF13 was leagues better and I would have given the edge to 9 in having a plot that made sense but boy that endgame of 9 is roughly a hojillion times worse than I remember it as a child.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:07
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ImpAtom posted:Huh? There's a Steal gambit. Nothing like "If Item=Held, Use:" or what have you. All you have is a slapdash "Enemy HP=100%" and hope you make off with some loot before they die.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:07
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I'll never forgive Necron for stealing Kuja's thunder, and also stealing the coveted title of final boss music away from the awesome Dark Messenger, but thanks to a mod of IX I played, I mainly hate Necron now because of his mechanics. "Necron" only has one or maybe two moves, everything else is some invisible, unbeatable enemy which means Necron can get three or four turns in a row?? I'll never forget getting nailed with Grand Cross and Meteor back-to-back.ApplesandOranges posted:Ultimecia actually had some pretty cool designs throughout the fight. I can confirm. She is an absolute nightmare in Final Fantasy VIII Requiem for precisely those reasons. Very fun, though. ZenMasterBullshit posted:LR is one of the three Final Fantasy games with good, fun gameplay, neat bosses that actually stress using the different mechanics of combat and has a decent sense of humor about itself. I find it kind of odd to insult XII's story and final boss in the same post you praise Lightning Returns. Bhunivelze does not exactly receive a lot of praise for being an interesting villain. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 00:08
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ImpAtom posted:Huh? There's a Steal gambit. There isn't a "if enemy has item" gambit so it's the one non perfectly automate able thing which is annoying and glaring.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:09
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My favorite final boss is my dad.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:10
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8-Bit Scholar posted:The first point I can't say much on, it's been far too long since I last played the game and maybe the interface is far worse than I expected. I didn't have any troubles, though, and controlled my party members largely manually while automating things that made things easier for me--like setting my mages to cast buffs as soon as they ran out. I found it engaging, at the very least. The second point, I dunno. If that's how it went for you, but I'd say the reason not to is that it becomes boring that way, so why do it? Well, because there's no particular way to play FFXII that I found engaging. In other FF games I can do gimmick runs or low-level runs or whatever which can make certain previously unusual or seemingly weak ability combinations viable or there are unique abilities which are frequently interesting. FFXII's core combat system is very simple even for a Final Fantasy game so there's no reason not to automate because there's very little in the way of things to do in the combat system that are not automation. I could theoretically automate FFV for example but FFV has a bunch of cool job systems which I enjoy playing around with. Even the Zodiac Job System in FFXII just serves to fix the original flavor problem of "everyone is basically identical and has no distinctive features." FFXII has a good core basis but they needed to come up with more for your characters to do and didn't. Pyroxene Stigma posted:Nothing like "If Item=Held, Use:" or what have you. All you have is a slapdash "Enemy HP=100%" and hope you make off with some loot before they die. Yeah, but Steal is a gambit option, it's mostly just a case of weird gambit design that they don't have that and you have to fudge around it. I set up a gambit chain that got me occasional steals in regular fights and was swimming in money anyway so it isn't a big issue unless you're trying to get the Genji Gear or anything.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:13
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Ah, that's fine then. I rarely if ever do gimmick runs or whatnot--I first learned about those during FFX and it just seemed like abject madness after awhile, with no sphere, no aeon, whatever runs. I guess then from a filthy casual perspective, FF12 seemed to just give me a lot of options and didn't make me feel too restricted in any particular way. I felt far more limited with FF13's battle system, for instance, because there was really nothing to be done in order to prepare for a fight, it was just a matter of figuring out the proper sequence of classes to use at the proper time. But I also fully admit something about that battle system has never clicked with me, so I'm not exactly an impartial judge. I also liked that I could always move in FF12--I could run away from a giant enemy and make enemy trains, or try to back away from an enemy who was attacking, even though I knew they'd hit regardless of my distance. Kinda wish FF12 did AoE attacks in FF14's style, now that I think about it...
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Jun 7, 2016 00:17
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ApplesandOranges posted:Ultimecia actually had some pretty cool designs throughout the fight. Yeah Ultimecia is right up there in my favorite bosses.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:19
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My main issue with FFXII is the bazaar system, and how you never seem to have enough gil to get everything you want.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:23
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ApplesandOranges posted:My main issue with FFXII is the bazaar system, and how you never seem to have enough gil to get everything you want. The only way to have enough gil is to grind Mirrorknights and chain them to collect Mirror Mails and...something else. Sadly, they only appear in an area pretty much at the end of the game.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:25
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Sakurazuka posted:Lulu is really bad yeah.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:32
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I like how Lulu got TV pregnant in X-2. Gonna have a baby? Yeah sure whatever. No I'm not removing my corset or belt-skirt, why?
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Jun 7, 2016 00:34
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I don't think that is fair. Has anyone here ever played the early game without her? I think I even asked in here once about when it was that Lulu became crap and consensus was...maybe Bevelle? It was fairly late in the story that she loses her usefulness.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:41
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NikkolasKing posted:I find it kind of odd to insult XII's story and final boss in the same post you praise Lightning Returns. Bhunivelze does not exactly receive a lot of praise for being an interesting villain. You're right about BhunBhunGod-chan not being that interesting, but him be a huge rear end in a top hat was kind of set up in back story stuff for 13 and 13-2 and actively set up with the FakeSerah/Emotionless Lightning storyline. Meanwhile, the entire game before that was about doing good things to help people to claim their souls for him, specifically the Big 5 souls of your old friends/enemies. It's all about his plans for the souls and you hunting them down for him. Meanwhile 12 Prince What'sHisFace has no ties to the narrative, minus the 3 or so times the plot has to cut away between cutscenes to assure you that he still exists and is killing some old fucks you don't know and don't care about, and maybe the scenes to explain where Larsa's going. What I'm saying is they're both not great when it comes to narrative, but there's enough jokey fun poo poo in LR that at least it's enjoyable. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 00:42
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NikkolasKing posted:I don't think that is fair. Has anyone here ever played the early game without her? I think I even asked in here once about when it was that Lulu became crap and consensus was...maybe Bevelle? It was fairly late in the story that she loses her usefulness. I pretty much swapped in everyone when I fought an encounter they were super effective against but I remember she was perks benched in usefulness by like thunder road for me.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:52
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CeallaSo posted:My favorite final boss is my dad.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:53
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NikkolasKing posted:I don't think that is fair. Has anyone here ever played the early game without her? I think I even asked in here once about when it was that Lulu became crap and consensus was...maybe Bevelle? It was fairly late in the story that she loses her usefulness. She stops being useful the moment you can get Yuna some of her spells or replicate her damage type anywhere else. How early that is depends on your Sphere Grid and such but it's fairly early.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:59
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Oh poo poo I just remembered something: the cutscenes at the top of the Pharos with HD voice acting. Day one purchase, all complaints invalid. 
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Jun 7, 2016 01:05
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Bevelle is like maybe halfway gameplay-wise. Honestly she has no worth outside of one-shotting Elementals early on, even more useless once Rikku joins because you have reliable AoE damage/heal for basically no cost by then. The biggest problem with Lulu is that she's also slow as poo poo which is extra bad in FFX's battle system.
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Jun 7, 2016 01:07
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ImpAtom posted:She stops being useful the moment you can get Yuna some of her spells or replicate her damage type anywhere else. How early that is depends on your Sphere Grid and such but it's fairly early. Rikku is your only choice for elemental items as far as I recall and that's a good bit into the game. It's also kind of counterproductive to switch over to Rikku because she's so incredibly weak when she joins. You will have to grind her up for a while before she can take more than one hit. Also you really will only be grinding with her in a completely new and challenging area. In all ways it makes more sense to stick with Lulu. Also Rikku would only have access to lightning items here and she is thus even more useless in the Thunder Plains which means you still need Lulu to kill elementals. I have never taken Yuna down a black mage path so dunno about that.
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Jun 7, 2016 01:08
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I think you no longer really need Lulu after Macalania. She's still a little useful for Via Purifico and the Calm Lands but she definitely falls off at Gagazet, because the Bombs there need to be Mental Broken.
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Jun 7, 2016 01:11
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NikkolasKing posted:I don't think that is fair. Has anyone here ever played the early game without her? I think I even asked in here once about when it was that Lulu became crap and consensus was...maybe Bevelle? It was fairly late in the story that she loses her usefulness. The only reason she's "good" in the early game is because she's set up as the counter to specific enemy types, and that's only because she's the only one who starts with black magic. But the stats in her part of the grid suck. She's slow as poo poo (must be all the belts) and Yuna gets more magic than her. She barely gets more magic than Wakka.
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Jun 7, 2016 01:23
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NikkolasKing posted:Rikku is your only choice for elemental items as far as I recall and that's a good bit into the game. It's also kind of counterproductive to switch over to Rikku because she's so incredibly weak when she joins. Or running Kimarhi into Rikku's grid as early as Mihen even in the original sphere grid. Or pushing Yuna down the black magic path in the expert grid which you can do immediately. And Rikku's only weakness when you get her is her tiny HP pull but the first sections of her grid (in both versions of the Sphere Grid) have more than enough HP Ups to get her to where she can take a hit or two. Lulu's entirely pointless outside of the first few hours in the normal game or the 3 fights you have her but not Yuna if you're playing on the Expert Grid.
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Jun 7, 2016 01:26
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NikkolasKing posted:Rikku is your only choice for elemental items as far as I recall and that's a good bit into the game. It's also kind of counterproductive to switch over to Rikku because she's so incredibly weak when she joins. Rikku is incredibly strong from the moment she joins if just for her ability to one-shot machines and only gets stronger.
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Jun 7, 2016 01:27
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If you don't use friend sphere or some other gimmick to have Yuna travel along Lulus path you're just flat out missing out. It doesn't hurt that Yuna also has an overdrive worth a drat. There's a reason she got replaced with Paine in the sequel
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Jun 7, 2016 01:28
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I keep all the characters on their respective paths so I can use everyone. Especially Lulu. Lady's got as much respect from me as Scully for the poo poo she can do in heels.
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Jun 7, 2016 01:35
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I really don't get why people seem to think that FF12's gambit system is intended for you to simply eliminate the need to participate in a game. Considering it's at-will in terms of what gambits you set, you can really establish as much or as little control as you personally feel like, but even so, that doesn't mean you can just stop paying attention entirely. The gambit system does something very useful for a turn-based combat engine: it eliminates redundant button pressing. If you contrasted it to a typical battle in Final Fantasy VII, this becomes clear. My problem is that I love redundant button pressing
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Jun 7, 2016 01:36
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I've played through XIII twice and I think every single time I paradigm shifted into auto battle I didn't stop hitting X through every attack animation even though I know it doesn't do anything. For like 80 hours of my life at this point probably
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Jun 7, 2016 01:37
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