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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago quote:Which is why they asked Admiral Jellicoe yesterday for a response to the Germans. It’s 10:35am today before he sends any report, just as his flagship Iron Duke is returning to Scapa Flow. It’s a masterpiece of brevity, summarising British losses with devastating accuracy and making the most pessimistic estimation possible of German damage. It’s really all he can say until he’s returned to port and had a chance to properly confer with his subordinates and find out what the hell went on out there, since nobody could be bothered to tell him at the time. But it also seems to confirm in most respects the contents of the German press release. Wow, what a time to be humble.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:41
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Tomn posted:The "36-Hour War" article you link in there is pretty interesting - apparently by November 1945 someone had already worked out the basic underpinnings of deterrence as the best way to "win" a nuclear war.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:57
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spectralent posted:IIRC they only got compensation recently, didn't they? I'm vaguely remembering something like 2005. I don't know how recently it was, but yeah West Germany kept the Nazi regime's anti-homosexuality laws on the books until 1969. It was only later that the German government began to acknowledge homosexuals as victims of the Holocaust.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:21
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It's pretty depressing how many of the ships at Jutland seem to sink with no survivors. Is that how it usually goes in naval battles, was that typical of WW1 ships, or is it a fluke for some reason or another? e: I enjoyed the Japanese sabotage munitions blog post btw.
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Jun 7, 2016 04:36
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aphid_licker posted:It's pretty depressing how many of the ships at Jutland seem to sink with no survivors. Is that how it usually goes in naval battles, was that typical of WW1 ships, or is it a fluke for some reason or another? The British ships sank suddenly after just a few shots. German accounts told of huge explosions tearing the boats in half. Analysts have attributed this to lax safety procedures during the battle. The British ships had orders to maintain maximum fire rate, which meant cutting a bunch of corners. Loose cordite strands laying around from ripped bags that didn't get cleaned up, extra cordite bags lying around near the gun to reload it as fast as possible, blast doors propped open to make it easier to move shells and cordite through, etc. Combine all that with the mass of men and confusion of battle. A fire in the gun turret had nowhere to go but down the elevator shaft, where it detonated the main magazine. The BBC just had a bunch of specials on Jutland and they went through the whole analysis. At least six of the British ships (killing at least 5,000 men) went down that way.
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Jun 7, 2016 04:49
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aphid_licker posted:It's pretty depressing how many of the ships at Jutland seem to sink with no survivors. Is that how it usually goes in naval battles, was that typical of WW1 ships, or is it a fluke for some reason or another? I think it's the effect of an explosion in a confined space. Most/all the dudes on the ship are basically dead before the ship goes under, and it goes under FAST so even the guys who were stunned or whatever aren't going to make it. Also the water is probably drat cold.
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Jun 7, 2016 04:50
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aphid_licker posted:It's pretty depressing how many of the ships at Jutland seem to sink with no survivors. Is that how it usually goes in naval battles, was that typical of WW1 ships, or is it a fluke for some reason or another? Magazine detonations are bad poo poo. The battlecruisers at Jutland all exploded into two parts and sank instantly. This is roughly how big a magazine explosion is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdrISbwy_zI Unlike Barham, the battlecruisers exploded almost instantly, which meant that all the sailors were still stuck below decks. So yeah no survivors. This can happen to any warship, which is why naval designers stacked heavy armour around the magazines. Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 04:52
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British battlecruiser style losses are usually the exception. There's pretty much two kinds of losses of ships. Either the ship takes some time to sink and there's other ships/land nearby or there isn't. The explosions are a lot rarer than the nobody around option.PittTheElder posted:On an unrelated note, how many Fast Battleships did Britain have around in WWII? Did they not have an even stronger advantage of numbers even early on in that conflict, since Germany is initially rolling with a fleet of 3 capital ships (Bismarck, Scharnhorst, Gneisnau, maybe 5 if you could Scheer and Deutschland; e: oh, there's the 4 Hippers I guess too)? Basically I'm trying to figure out if the pursuit of Bismarck was actually a big deal, or just a publicly highly visible event? The big thing about the Bismarck is that catching it freed up multiple big ships, since they needed to be able to get a superior force going at any given time, which means multiple times the ships on hand, and you probably don't want to let a battleship run amok even if it isn't the most efficient thing in the world.
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Jun 7, 2016 05:16
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aphid_licker posted:It's pretty depressing how many of the ships at Jutland seem to sink with no survivors. Is that how it usually goes in naval battles, was that typical of WW1 ships, or is it a fluke for some reason or another? For what it's worth, during the Age of Sail cannons weren't really well-developed enough to reliably sink enemy ships, so "all hands lost with almost no survivors" as a deliberate consequence of battle was pretty rare, though it did happen sometimes in the event of a magazine explosion or a really bad fire. On the other hand, "surrendered following either a boarding action or sustained heavy fire" was a lot more common and since everybody is aboard a single ship there's no real possibility of escape once the ship has surrendered, so as far as the losing side goes it's effectively a total loss of ship and crew. Less sure about how things went in the Ancient period, though I know ramming was a decent way of outright sinking enemy ships for a time. Boarding should work out the same way as the Age of Sail, so there's that.
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Jun 7, 2016 08:55
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Mycroft Holmes posted:How is Robert McNamara remembered? Is he seen as good or bad? I was just watching Fog of War and he really sidesteps around some of the questions. Bewbies has covered a lot of it, but one of the tragedies of McNamara was that he was possibly had the worst temperament to be Secretary of Defence while the US was in the middle of a counterinsurgency war. He came from a automotive background as a "whiz-kid" manager who got scooped up by the USAAF during WWII to work on bombing efficiencies, which he did (along with a fellow group of automotive managers) to great effect. He was really into statistical analysis and having hard data to make decisions from, which as Bewbies pointed out is great if you are trying to wring the inefficiencies out of a large organisation like the US Military. Unfortunately it's one of the worst attitudes to have when you are responsible for the conduct of a controversial anti guerrilla war where winning over the local populace is paramount. McNamara was famous for refusing to make decisions without some kind of data to go off, and was one of the major drivers of "body count" as a measure of success since it was a hard number that he could work with. He was very dismissive of bad news when it came without some kind of numbers to back it up, which led to unfounded optimism where body count was seen to be going well and reports from junior officers on the poor morale & sentiments in the population and ARVN were ignored due to lack of 'evidence'. He was also fond of technological solutions to problems where it was inappropriate, like the very expensive but poorly performing McNamara Line. I don't think he is remembered as poorly as Westmoreland (and rightly so) but I think a lot of people would agree that his policies and conduct on the Vietnam war were pretty bad. The fact that he showed contrition and the way he left the job garners a lot of sympathy though, unlike Westy who until his death was convinced that he was on the verge of victory if only the politicians and the public had not stabbed him and his brave boys in the back. I am one of those people who knows him as "the Vietnam guy" though, so I can't speak to this other achievements or politics which might end up showing him in a better light.
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Jun 7, 2016 09:01
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McNamara needs to be seen in the context of the time, in which he was very much one of the calmer guys in the decision making room. See for example his actions during the Cuban missile crisis, and installing permissive action locks on nuclear weapons (which LeMay promptly disabled). It's quite possible he saved the world several times over, but we'll never know.
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Jun 7, 2016 10:39
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago The Brusilov Offensive is always making me sad: Incredibly succesful, but crippling the Russian army as bad as the Austrian-Hungarian. There will no coming back from this, the repercussions from this offensive will be felt throughout this year and the next.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:06
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PittTheElder posted:Well, they were among the few large German surface combatants, and the British did take to calling them Pocket Battleships. They displaced more and were more heavily armed than the Deutschlands, so if you count them you probably have to count the Hippers too. Sure they're way smaller than Hood or the George V's, but so was most everything in the German fleet. Nope, it's the Deutschland-class that were the pocket battleships, because they had 6x 11in guns which is rather large for a cruiser. Hippers had a rather more normal 8in armament. Edit: 8" looks to be within the Washington treaty limits for cruisers, actually (bang on, in fact). Displacement not so much but various navies happily lied about that anyway. I certainly don't think cruisers have ever in common usage been considered capital ships. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 12:40
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Mycroft Holmes posted:How is Robert McNamara remembered? Is he seen as good or bad? I was just watching Fog of War and he really sidesteps around some of the questions. He got really lucky with history placing so much of the blame on Johnson and Nixon, frankly. Most people today don't know he sabotaged the presidents constitutional monopoly on the decision to use force, by conveniently forgetting to deliver a message from the pacific commander, that he was not certain a reported missile attack had happened, or wether even there were north vietnamese craft in the AO. From wikipedia, so I don't how reliable, but take a peep: quote:By early afternoon of August 4, Washington time, Herrick had reported to the Commander in Chief Pacific in Honolulu that "freak weather effects" on the ship's radar had made such an attack questionable. In fact, Herrick was now saying, in a message sent at 1:27 pm Washington time, that no North Vietnamese patrol boats had actually been sighted. Herrick now proposed a "complete evaluation before any further action taken."[22] C'mon thread, give me the sweet Bluetooth knowledge  Tias posted:Can someone tell me about Harald Bluetooth? I know he built fortresses and kept out german settlers, but there seems to be a great deal of disagreement on whether he was bested and forcibly christianized by Otto I, or if it happened in other ways.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:50
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feedmegin posted:Nope, it's the Deutschland-class that were the pocket battleships, because they had 6x 11in guns which is rather large for a cruiser. Hippers had a rather more normal 8in armament. The Hipper-class was outrageously over the limit - standard displacement was almost 16,000 tons, 18,000 tons loaded. Other nation's treaty CAs only hit about 15,000 tons loaded.
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Jun 7, 2016 13:26
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The Hipper-class was outrageously over the limit - standard displacement was almost 16,000 tons, 18,000 tons loaded. Other nation's treaty CAs only hit about 15,000 tons loaded. Still a cruiser by anyone's normal pre-treaty standards, still claimed as a cruiser by the Nazis even if they were being pretty blatant about it, still not what anyone then would have called a capital ship.
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Jun 7, 2016 13:52
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The Hipper-class was outrageously over the limit - standard displacement was almost 16,000 tons, 18,000 tons loaded. Other nation's treaty CAs only hit about 15,000 tons loaded. But their raw stats don't seem to be better than other post-treaty CAs. For example, the Tone-class appears to fit comparable levels of armor/speed/firepower at ~15,000 tons fully-loaded and still sneak in a few seaplanes. So where did that extra ~3,000 tons go? golden bubble fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 14:09
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golden bubble posted:But their raw stats don't seem to be better than other post-treaty CAs. For example, the Tone-class appears to fit comparable levels of armor/speed/firepower at ~15,000 tons fully-loaded and still sneak in a few seaplanes. So what did that extra ~3,000 tons go? The protection scheme was pretty different for the Tone since all the armament was carried forward of the bow, so the total weight of armor was lower. The Tones were lightly built, overloaded mand top heavy (though not as bad as previous Japanese CA designs). I am also seeing the 15,000t figure as standard, not loaded, so it's only about 1,500 tons lighter than the Hippers. edit I am pretty sure that in a World of Tanks style nonsense empty ocean battle that the Hipper would clean out the Tone pretty fast because the Tone would have a difficult time using its superior speed and any of its armament successfully.
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Jun 7, 2016 14:19
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Libluini posted:The Brusilov Offensive is always making me sad: Incredibly succesful, but crippling the Russian army as bad as the Austrian-Hungarian. There will no coming back from this, the repercussions from this offensive will be felt throughout this year and the next. If only Evert and Kuropatkin hadn't been massive cowards and/or fuckers. I'm reading Brusilov's memoir and he really detests them and looks down on the imperial family, especially the Tsarina.
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Jun 7, 2016 14:43
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golden bubble posted:But their raw stats don't seem to be better than other post-treaty CAs. For example, the Tone-class appears to fit comparable levels of armor/speed/firepower at ~15,000 tons fully-loaded and still sneak in a few seaplanes. So where did that extra ~3,000 tons go? The Japanese cruisers were structurally suspect at best and needed strengthening, so they're less of a good comparison than the Algerie, Zara, and so on. Treaty cruisers are going to be making sacrifices by the very nature of the numbers, so it's a matter of figuring out what about the ship is compromised. I think a lot of it is that the Germans armored a lot more length of the ship, which is actually not the worst idea for a raider navy. A raider doesn't need to be sunk to be doomed by a hit far from home. However the ships were quite heavy and took a really large crew. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 14:55
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aphid_licker posted:It's pretty depressing how many of the ships at Jutland seem to sink with no survivors. Is that how it usually goes in naval battles, was that typical of WW1 ships, or is it a fluke for some reason or another? In addition to the explosions, there's also the fact that a huge ship can pull down a lot of water as it sinks. So even if you're somehow lucky enough to jump off in time, the sinking ship can still drag you behind it.
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Jun 7, 2016 15:44
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The protection scheme was pretty different for the Tone since all the armament was carried forward of the bow, so the total weight of armor was lower. The Tones were lightly built, overloaded mand top heavy (though not as bad as previous Japanese CA designs). I am also seeing the 15,000t figure as standard, not loaded, so it's only about 1,500 tons lighter than the Hippers. Imperial Japanese Navy Heavy Cruisers 1941–45 says 15000t is full load. But I'll definitely admit IJN cruisers loved to skimp on their structural supports and crew amenities.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:13
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I was going off of combinedfleet.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:15
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Tomn posted:Less sure about how things went in the Ancient period, though I know ramming was a decent way of outright sinking enemy ships for a time. Boarding should work out the same way as the Age of Sail, so there's that. Ancient sea battles generally occured within sight of the shore I think. Triremes and such aren't really ocean going vessels and anything worth fighting over(Bosphorous, Salamis, etc) would be close to shore anyway. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I am pretty sure that in a World of Tanks style nonsense empty ocean battle that the Hipper would clean out the Tone pretty fast because the Tone would have a difficult time using its superior speed and any of its armament successfully. Well most oceans are pretty empty. It's not unrealistic. 
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Jun 7, 2016 16:42
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Oceans are pretty empty but cruisers, especially the Tone, which is really strongly set up for fleet support, squaring off against each other isn't that common. I guess it might make sense because a float plane cruiser hunting for a surface raider isn't the worst use of resources, but the defenders usually try to gather a squadron against raiders.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:47
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Mycroft Holmes posted:How is Robert McNamara remembered? Is he seen as good or bad? I was just watching Fog of War and he really sidesteps around some of the questions. If you thought McNamara was dodgy in Fog of War, you should really check out The Unknown Known by the same director.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:06
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Throatwarbler posted:Ancient sea battles generally occured within sight of the shore I think. Triremes and such aren't really ocean going vessels and anything worth fighting over(Bosphorous, Salamis, etc) would be close to shore anyway. World of Warships actually has loads of massive islands everywhere to provide cover.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:30
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spectralent posted:World of Warships actually has loads of massive islands everywhere to provide cover. When you play on the one map that doesn't, you immediately understand why.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:33
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I managed to ram a few islands before I stopped playing. Warthunder every day! Probably. Usually two matches.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:55
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago All these Jutland posts really show the strengths of taking a day-by-day approach to WWI, since seeing how it comes up again and again in everyone's accounts tells us more about the aftermath than any paragraph summarizing its impact could. I'm also really interested in Connes' story, since WWI POWs are something I basically know nothing about-- especially outside the context of the Siege of Kut, where I learned a little after I was so worried about Edward Mousley I looked up what happened to him.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:45
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Related to all this battle boat talk, I watched Michiel de Ruyter (or Admiral as it's called on U.S. netflix) and it was pretty enjoyable. I'm no expert on Dutch history but it seemed fairly accurate outside of overplaying freedom-loving, Republican, man of the people all the way de Witt and the English waging war on them because THEY HATE US FOR ARE FREEDOMS, but that's Hagueywood what do you expect. Likewise, I'm no expert on ships of sail--except that they're really cool and very pretty--but nothing jumped out to me as horribly off; I would love someone who knew what they were talking about to correct me on that or Dutch politics of the time though. Some sweet naval battles, fun clothes and sets, would recommend. And Charles Dance as Charles II!
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Jun 7, 2016 19:52
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The talk about English swordsmen mucking around in the colonies got me curious about the 19th century. Anyone have good stuff about the Anglo-Afghan wars to share?
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Jun 7, 2016 22:01
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Siivola posted:The talk about English swordsmen mucking around in the colonies got me curious about the 19th century. Anyone have good stuff about the Anglo-Afghan wars to share? This happened- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul Everyone died in horrible ways while crossing the Hindu Kush mountains in winter while being shot at. Edit: 1 person survived. Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 22:20
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And that was just the first time too.
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Jun 7, 2016 22:25
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stranger danger posted:In addition to the explosions, there's also the fact that a huge ship can pull down a lot of water as it sinks. So even if you're somehow lucky enough to jump off in time, the sinking ship can still drag you behind it. Isn't this a myth? I am pretty sure this doesn't happen.
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Jun 7, 2016 22:33
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1639, Freiberg, Saxony Oberst Carl Bose's second regiment of dragoons, which he formed by beating four companies of Swedish dragoons back in 1635 and enlisting its inhabitants as his own, is stationed in Freiberg under the command of Oberst Lieutenant Andreas von Haubitz. They're being besieged by General Baner, who eventually leaves off and heads toward Pirna. After they withdrew, Haubitz rode out to visit the Swedish Oberst Wittemberg on "parole," a word of safe conduct. On the way back, "because he was drunk," he "wandered too far to figure out whether the enemy was gone or not." ("undt...ist der Obriste Lieutenant haugwitz uff parole Zum Obristen Wittembergk heraus geritten, undt hat sich trunckenerweise im rückwege Zu weit vergangen, umb etwas Zu recognosciren, ob der feindt ganz wegk oder nicht"). At that point a troop of Swedes, "who didn't know that he had parole from Wittemberg, met him, charged at him, fatally wounded him, and brought him as a prisoner to the camp before Pirna, at which place he died." ("da er dann von einem troupp, unwißend der Wittembergischen parole, angetroffen, chargiret, tödtlich verwundet, undt gefangen ins lager vor Pirna bracht, woselbst er gestorben") The body was sent back to Freiberg and buried here. Please Dragoon Responsibly. edit: He died as he had lived HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jun 8, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 22:38
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Its not suction, its all the escaping air from the ship coming up. You cant swim in air, so you sorta 'fall'.
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Jun 7, 2016 22:39
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Saint Celestine posted:Everyone died in horrible ways while crossing the Hindu Kush mountains in winter while being shot at. SeanBeansShako posted:And that was just the first time too.  I'm suddenly starting to understand exactly which part of Asia one shouldn't have a land war in.
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Jun 7, 2016 22:46
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Siivola posted:The talk about English swordsmen mucking around in the colonies got me curious about the 19th century. Anyone have good stuff about the Anglo-Afghan wars to share? A professor of mine did some work on the Empire and she was talking to a quartermaster who had served over there. He told her a story of an Afghani who said he had found some interesting weapons. The quartermaster was expecting some American or Soviet stuff but was instead shown a pretty big cache of British rifles dated around their second gently caress-up in Afghanistan. e: ˅˅surely Switzerland is bizarro-Afghanistan since Afghanistan started that shtick way earlier with Alexander. Pontius Pilate fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 22:58
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Afghanistan is the Bizarro-Switzerland. Instead of Afghans leaving their home country to murder everyone, everyone feels compulsed to go there to get murdered.
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Jun 7, 2016 23:07
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