|
Also I heard that she's invulnerable - or at least has invul frames - while grappling. I can't actually test that but if so jesus christ
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 09:51 |
|
|
Countblanc posted:No, because she's mainly a problem with really good players having the ability to wipe most of a team when left even vaguely uncontested which really requires cranking out headshots. Keep her ability to quickly kill a single target because that's what snipers are for, but reduce her charge speed or increase her ammo consumption or something. Idk I think good players should be rewarded. Some of the cooler moments in this weekend's tournaments involved Widows dumpstering pushes. There are already so many boring w+m1 heroes in this game and I'd hate to see them ruin a hero that actually requires aim. Honestly I wonder if most of this animosity toward her isn't just coming from Casualwatch players that see good Widows tear it up but don't want to put the time in to learn how to aim.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:23
|
|
|
fadam posted:Idk I think good players should be rewarded. then why nerf anything ever
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:34
|
|
|
like i get what you're saying, but i dont really care if something looks cool to a spectator if it's really unfun to play against and also centralizes the game at a certain level around "we need to dedicate significant resources to protecting/destroying this character" and that's exactly what widow is. competitive players have talked about this, where when they have a worse widow than the other team they just have to immediately play double winston on several maps (gibraltar being the big one) because of how much power that one character has to completely stymie/decide a push. it's really dumb that whichever team wins the sniper duel just gets to tear rear end for the next 20-30 seconds when they're over so abruptly. no widow isn't so immediately stupid at a glance because 2x widow is rarely as useful as 2x mccree (and stacking classes is one of the most noticeable signs that a character is busted), but she's an issue especially once you factor in how lenient head hitboxes and other hit-detection related things are in this game
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:39
|
|
|
fadam posted:Idk I think good players should be rewarded. Some of the cooler moments in this weekend's tournaments involved Widows dumpstering pushes. There are already so many boring w+m1 heroes in this game and I'd hate to see them ruin a hero that actually requires aim. Anyone who's even decent at aiming can destroy teams with widowmaker. Powerful sniper rifles need a trade off. Semi auto rifles should be weaker to compensate for their high fire rate. Widowmaker has way, way too many tools. - An ULT that gives an entire team wallhacks with no global sound or notification - Mines that deal damage over time and reveal your location. Even when these mines are destroyed, they still alert the Widowmaker that someone is coming. - A sniper rifle with high damage, and a high charge rate. No sway, can be fired as a semi auto rifle. Can also be used as an assault rifle for respectable close range fighting. - 200 health, more health than Zenyatta, a high risk character with no escape mechanisms or self heals. Same health class as Soldier 76, a front line fighter. - Grapple Hook Escape Reducing the fire rate drastically, increasing the time it takes to charge, and adding recoil would be quick fixes to these problems. This character is NOT difficult to break.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:41
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:then why nerf anything ever McCree probably needs a nerf because any shmohawk can click RMB and get a kill on practically any hero. I'm hesitant to say Widowmaker needs a nerf because she's only a real problem in the hands of good players, and good players know how to deal with her.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:42
|
|
|
widowmaker should have a delay between her scoped shots it doesn't penalize headshots, just spamming down poor zenyattas from across the map with bodyshots. it'd also help pharah because she gets shat on by even moderately decent widowmakers
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:44
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:like i get what you're saying, but i dont really care if something looks cool to a spectator if it's really unfun to play against and also centralizes the game at a certain level around "we need to dedicate significant resources to protecting/destroying this character" and that's exactly what widow is. competitive players have talked about this, where when they have a worse widow than the other team they just have to immediately play double winston on several maps (gibraltar being the big one) because of how much power that one character has to completely stymie/decide a push. I don't get it though, why is it a big deal that the team with the better player has an advantage?
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:44
|
|
|
fadam posted:McCree probably needs a nerf because any shmohawk can click RMB and get a kill on practically any hero. I'm hesitant to say Widowmaker needs a nerf because she's only a real problem in the hands of good players, and good players know how to deal with her. Yeah man O. Sagat is perfectly fine
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:46
|
|
|
Night Blade posted:- An ULT that gives an entire team wallhacks with no global sound or notification -Jumps higher than other heroes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:47
|
|
|
fadam posted:I don't get it though, why is it a big deal that the team with the better player has an advantage? Because more than any other hero Widowmaker rewards that skill difference, and it's rewarded to such an extent that the game gets warped entirely around that skill disparity
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:48
|
|
|
fadam posted:I don't get it though, why is it a big deal that the team with the better player has an advantage? The meta is really loving boring if every team needs both a Widowmaker and specific counterpicks if their Widowmaker is better.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:48
|
|
|
Brannock posted:Yeah man O. Sagat is perfectly fine O. Sagat is a greasy character in a game filled with greasy characters so he actually is fine. Maybe the solution in Overwatch isn't to nerf one of the most mechanically rewarding heroes in the game, but to buff boring low tier shitters to a level where they can get played competitiely.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:51
|
|
|
I got flanked by a Pharah and Lucio as Widowmaker in close quarters and not only managed to survive, I had enough time to scope in and shoot the Lucio as I ran away. I love Widowmaker but giving her 200 HP was such a dumb idea.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:54
|
|
|
Lady Naga posted:The meta is really loving boring if every team needs both a Widowmaker and specific counterpicks if their Widowmaker is better. Why don't I see equivalent bitching about most teams running Mercy, Lucio, Reinhardt, McCree in every game too? People are always going to pick top tier if money is on the line.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:54
|
|
|
fadam posted:Maybe the solution in Overwatch isn't to nerf one of the most mechanically rewarding heroes in the game, but to buff boring low tier shitters to a level where they can get played competitiely. I agree, double everyone's health so they stand a chance against Widow.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:54
|
|
|
Multiply everyone's numbers by 2 except for Widow. "Don't worry Widow didn't get nerfed." e:gently caress
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:55
|
|
|
fadam posted:O. Sagat is a greasy character in a game filled with greasy characters so he actually is fine. This is functionally equivalent to nerfing Widow, but requires literally 20 times as much work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:56
|
|
|
fadam posted:Why don't I see equivalent bitching about most teams running Mercy, Lucio, Reinhardt, McCree in every game too? People are always going to pick top tier if money is on the line. You're absolutely blind if you don't see people bitching about most teams running McCree. Mercy, Lucio and Reinhardt aren't overtuned either they're just the only game in town, once more supports and actual defensive tanks get added they'll drop off some in popularity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:58
|
|
|
Squinty posted:This is functionally equivalent to nerfing Widow, but requires literally 20 times as much work. Sure, but a game filled with strong heroes is always going to be more fun than a game filled with weak ones. Maybe the extra work will be worth it if we avoid filling the game with z-tier heroes like Mei, D. VA Zen, Torr and Bastion.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 06:58
|
|
|
fadam posted:McCree probably needs a nerf because any shmohawk can click RMB and get a kill on practically any hero. I'm hesitant to say Widowmaker needs a nerf because she's only a real problem in the hands of good players, and good players know how to deal with her. I hadn't played an FPS in like 10+ years and in my first game as Widowmaker, we shut out a team on Volskaya A defense, I got POTG, didn't die once. She's ridiculously easy to pick up and play. There's a pretty simple solution to her and that's to make her M2 bolt action. The fact that you can just unload scoped shuts without even a thought of reloading is completely stupid. But I would rather they just remove her altogether because the fun aspects of this game are medium- to short-range skirmishes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:00
|
|
|
Lady Naga posted:You're absolutely blind if you don't see people bitching about most teams running McCree. Maybe they should just make Hanzo good and add that support sniper so there's variety in the sniper department too, then.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:00
|
|
|
I mean, Widow could really be 150 and have a slower fire rate. I don't think that would destroy her, but it would make her more fragile and make full charged bodyshots less derpy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:01
|
|
|
fadam posted:Maybe they should just make Hanzo good and add that support sniper so there's variety in the sniper department too, then. None of that will matter if Widowmaker is still the perceived "best sniper".
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:02
|
|
|
Lady Naga posted:None of that will matter if Widowmaker is still the perceived "best sniper". Sure, but the same goes for your point about Reinhardt, Mercy, Lucio etc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:03
|
|
|
Dias posted:I mean, Widow could really be 150 and have a slower fire rate. I don't think that would destroy her, but it would make her more fragile and make full charged bodyshots less derpy. Can't fire scoped shots unless you have a specific charge percentage, let's say somewhere between 25-50% I'd like my royalty check now Blizzard, I also accept payment in loot boxes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:05
|
|
|
fadam posted:Sure, but a game filled with strong heroes is always going to be more fun than a game filled with weak ones. Maybe the extra work will be worth it if we avoid filling the game with z-tier heroes like Mei, D. VA Zen, Torr and Bastion. Actually the other heroes (except D.Va) are already fine and the problems are Widow and McCree and fixing the bullshit aspects of both does not make them unrewarding.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:05
|
|
|
Widow has a lot of counters. Tracers, genjis, dvas and apes can all hunt her down and destroy her. If no one tries to do so then yeah its easy to play her But like, duh For every good widow who gets lots of kills in a game i see 100 bad or mediocre ones as well. Mcree requires no skill, just toss the flashbang when someone is close Zzulu fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jun 7, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:05
|
|
|
chumbler posted:Actually the other heroes (except D.Va) are already fine and the problems are Widow and McCree. Not at all actually.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:06
|
|
|
fadam posted:Sure, but the same goes for your point about Reinhardt, Mercy, Lucio etc. A support sniper especially will never be a replacement for Widowmaker unless they're broken beyond repair since they fundementally won't be able to do what a Widow does, and even if you buffed Hanzo he's still a projectile sniper.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:07
|
|
|
Why is Tracer considered to be a counter to Widow? She can oneshot Tracer with a bodyshot, and a lot of the time she perches herself on some platform Tracer can't even reach.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:07
|
|
|
My biggest issue with Widow is her 30 shots before reloading.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:08
|
|
|
Zzulu posted:Widow has a lot of counters. Tracers, genjis, dvas and apes can all hunt her down and destroy her. If no one tries to do so then yeah its easy to play her Having a character so powerful that you need to directly counterpick them is not good game design.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:08
|
|
|
Zzulu posted:Widow has a lot of counters. Tracers, genjis, dvas and apes can all hunt her down and destroy her. If no one tries to do so then yeah its easy to play her And her team just lets them get to her? Some of you must not have faced great teams with a better widow because it's a pain to fight. Regarding your edit that's a cop out. There's always good and bad players that doesn't invalidate the argument.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:09
|
|
|
Well im level 55 now and personally i cant say i feel widowd are much of a hassle at all Mcree is, on a lot of maps though
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:10
|
|
|
fadam posted:Not at all actually. Kinda is. Consider this is mostly concerning high-level play, and not our scrublord level. McCree nullifies every other close range class, can insta-gib tanks with all cooldowns and actually deals okay damage at longer ranges. Widow is an insane sniper that can kill 200 HP characters without having to take headshots, is considerably resilient and has a get-out-of-jail-free card in her grappling hook. Even their counters aren't super HARD counters. Winston is already picked all the time but as long as the Widow has her cooldown, she can just gently caress off and shoot him while he flails impotently. McCree...gently caress, I don't even know what COUNTERS him. So how do you balance characters to be around that level? You mentioned Lúcio, and Lúcio is also insane IMO. He's a bit harder to balance because if you nerf him based on comp you'll probably destroy him, since people pick the dude for utility.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:13
|
|
|
Broken Cog posted:Why is Tracer considered to be a counter to Widow? She can oneshot Tracer with a bodyshot, and a lot of the time she perches herself on some platform Tracer can't even reach. I have no idea and it always confuses me when people say that. Genji I get but Tracer is absolutely not a Widow counter and arguably the opposite is true though map dependent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:14
|
|
|
Lady Naga posted:A support sniper especially will never be a replacement for Widowmaker unless they're broken beyond repair since they fundementally won't be able to do what a Widow does, and even if you buffed Hanzo he's still a projectile sniper. Okay, and unless they add heroes that literally have a moveable 2k shield, a res, and a speed boost, I don't see Reinhardt, Mercy or Lucio going anywhere. They all bring very specific utility pieces that are mandatory on most maps. Widowmaker's the same way. I guess at the end of the day I'm fine if they adjust Widowmaker, I just hope they go about it in the right way for the right reasons. Blizzard had a bad habit of completely neutering heroes to unplayable status in HotS because people would catch feel bads and bitch constantly instead of learning their matchups. There are already a ton of bad, unplayable heroes in this game and I'd hate to see Widowmaker become another.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:15
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:I have no idea and it always confuses me when people say that. Genji I get but Tracer is absolutely not a Widow counter and arguably the opposite is true though map dependent. if you can get up in a Widow's face you can wreck her poo poo as a tracer and she can't really escape but that's a big ol "if" fadam posted:Okay, and unless they add heroes that literally have a moveable 2k shield, a res, and a speed boost, I don't see Reinhardt, Mercy or Lucio going anywhere. They all bring very specific utility pieces that are mandatory on most maps. Widowmaker's the same way. Lady Naga fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jun 7, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 09:51 |
|
|
Also you can think of it as "does this hero makes another hero a terrible pick or just irrelevant"? McCree dominates all frontline fighters and flankers. Widow makes Hanzo look bad and Zen kinda unpickable. Lúcio is also very strong, I just think he's harder to balance. Mercy will always be a thing in comp because she's the Medic. But Mercy doesn't really take anyone's place, not even Lúcio's.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2016 07:18
|
|