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No Luck Needed posted:Bitter Grognards Wait, what? How am I a bitter grognard by just saying the mechanics you want to use don't work well especially considering I even suggested a better alternative? I got into a car accident tonight and I'm still amped from it. I'm not going to say the kind of poo poo I want to post because this probably is just a dumbass troll.
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Jun 3, 2016 05:50
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No Luck Needed posted:Bitter Grognards I'm almost insulted that I'm not on that list.
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Jun 3, 2016 06:03
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I'm almost insulted I'm on the list I'm on.
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Jun 3, 2016 06:38
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Can we get a Bitter Grognards gangtag?
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Jun 3, 2016 06:40
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I had butter grognards for desert last night. Ironically they were too sweet.
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Jun 3, 2016 07:42
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chaos rhames posted:I had butter grognards for desert last night. Ironically they were too sweet. That's a lie, I saw you eating dumplings. We did order the groggiest ones we could for you though.
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Jun 3, 2016 07:44
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Who knows whats in a melbourne dumpling really.
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Jun 3, 2016 07:51
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chaos rhames posted:Who knows whats in a melbourne dumpling really. I think we established that it's latte art and laneway graffiti. On-topic, what do people think is the best level window for 4E? 1st is a bit boring (not enough options/things to do), and epic always seems too far in the other direction to me (although if you've played the first 20 levels it's less of an issue, since everyone knows how their characters work already).
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Jun 3, 2016 07:58
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:I think we established that it's latte art and laneway graffiti. I suspect this depends how many interrupts people have because that is what makes combat a shitstorm. Things as so much faster after I gently put my thumb on the scale and got people to get rid of them. Also, themes make level 1 more playable. Going to go with 3 (utility + 2nd encounter) or 5 (2nd daily) through about 16ish but limited experience.
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Jun 3, 2016 08:12
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:I think we established that it's latte art and laneway graffiti. With experienced players, probably 9th- 15th. By 9th, you're at the point where you have a full suite of abilities, and you can get all your team synergies down for paragon, and then paragon I feel is where the game shines. You get a whole bunch of cool things that you can do, if a bit cheesy, like radiant mafia and frost abuse, but at the same time the abilities are super cool and really show off the game well. The system math holds best together during these levels, before you start getting into upper paragon where the really crazy poo poo starts to happen. Epic is fun, but it drags on a lot if one player has analysis paralysis, there are so many different things that you can do. With inexperienced players, that still know the system 5th level is a little bit better as they still have fun stuff without being slapped with analysis paralysis.
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Jun 3, 2016 08:14
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:On-topic, what do people think is the best level window for 4E? 1st is a bit boring (not enough options/things to do), and epic always seems too far in the other direction to me (although if you've played the first 20 levels it's less of an issue, since everyone knows how their characters work already). 12-20 for me & mine. Long enough stretch for a campaign if we wanted it to go that long, high enough starting level that you could do some more interesting mechanical things right out the gate if so inclined, and the power of the PCs hasn't quite rocketed off like it can in epic. Though I'd add to that, while I found the above range to be the most consistently fun, I've had the most fun in the 3-8 range by overcoming encounters we weren't meant to and turning around surprise attacks that had us against the wall from round 1; lots of table talk & trying to figure out how the gently caress to survive with our limited options.
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Jun 3, 2016 08:15
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I'm genuinely impressed by what heroic tier characters can do at as low a level as two. Level 6 is probably a decent place to start, though, since by that point everyone will have their two at-wills, two encounters, two dailies, and two utilities. Options, but not overwhelming. I began as a fresh new player around 7-8 in a campaign that started without me, and I felt pretty comfortable jumping in around that point. If I were to pick a favorite range, though, 11-16 is it. Paragon feats and Paragon paths are amazing and I don't feel my characters are complete without them. Builds really come together at this stage, even outside of Frostcheese, Radiant Mafia, or polearm shenanigans. Plus it's fun being able to tell the DM that you can just bypass an area because you can fly at level 12. "How long can you fly?" the DM asks. "Minor action to sustain," I answer. "So, indefinitely."
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Jun 3, 2016 08:32
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I'm glad I'm on both lists! My single line of snark cut real deep apparently. If I think of examples from fantasy novels that are actually good, rather than garbage D&D tie in novels, I can think of a couple of examples of groups where everyone is on a similar "level". But to use a more universal example that's been brought up before, it's true that Jimmy Olsen and Superman probably aren't on the same level, but if you're playing D&D you're playing the Justice League who are on the same level, if with different specialisations. And while different tiers of combat ability are fine amongst a party in some games, those (ideally) still have the characters possess equal narrative agency to affect the game, whereas in D&D 4e both your combat and out of combat powers come from levels and are linked, as well as combat being a primary focus. Not even mentioning how even a few levels difference create a huge insurmountable gap because of how the game math works.
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Jun 3, 2016 09:56
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My favourite level window is about 8-16, and coincidentally my group's characters range from level 8 to 16 so it all works out quite well.
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Jun 3, 2016 10:11
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Noxin of Shame posted:Your fun is wrong sorry for not giving out participation trophies I know that historically D&D has always been such a hopeless mess that it doesn't matter which rules you ignore or gently caress up, but 4e is genuinely better for everyone when you actually pay a little attention to them
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Jun 3, 2016 11:17
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No Luck Needed posted:so easy is fun? We all get participation awards now? gently caress that. In D&D you have to earn levels, earn magic items, earn gold, and earn that prestige i love this, dude thinks he's punishing the players who missed the game by making them weaker but he doesn't realize that he's also punishing his players that always show up by making them drag a bunch of chains around oh and he has to softball them encounters (you know because easy is fun) also both mario and candycrush are single player games (also mario has tons of mechanics nowadays to help struggling players along) but seriously you should talk about it with your players are they enjoying themselves? cuz if people are skipping your game to play league maybe they enjoy lovely experiences and you aren't being rough enough.
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Jun 3, 2016 11:58
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Really Pants posted:sorry for not giving out participation trophies
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Jun 3, 2016 13:07
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ImpactVector posted:That's not entirely fair though, because counting XP for participation actually is a rule. We're the ones suggesting he use house rules. oh D&D is fair now?
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Jun 3, 2016 13:25
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:I think we established that it's latte art and laneway graffiti.
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Jun 3, 2016 13:45
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Pharmaskittle posted:The punishment for missing a session is that you don't get to play Dungeons and Dragons with your friends that night. Really Pants posted:did you seriously think I said "let's all do a fun thing" Pharmaskittle posted:I do want to ask a non dnd philosophy question, tho. I'm playing an Ardent in my Dark Sun game and, while I crank out heals like nobody's business, I'm finding myself getting downed almost every fight. I've taken a halberd to get myself a little distance, and I think I'm probably one of the more tactically proficient players in the group at 4e, but I'm still getting wrecked and counting on a hybrid healer to get me up in the last quarter of most fights. We tend to play pretty mercilessly no matter who's DMing since we know the system can handle a balanced fight with no punches being pulled, but no other characters seem to be having this issue. Any generic advice? How good a job are your party's Defender(s) doing? They should be keeping the heat off you.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:19
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:On-topic, what do people think is the best level window for 4E? 1st is a bit boring (not enough options/things to do), and epic always seems too far in the other direction to me (although if you've played the first 20 levels it's less of an issue, since everyone knows how their characters work already). I start people at 4, and give them 5 after the first big fight (or end of the first session) - they have one Daily, one Utility and two Encounters, so a good amount of mechanical complexity to customise their character with, you immediately hand them a second Daily (which is cool, and also gives them more tactical decisions to make), and then 6 and 7 also come with extra powers.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:28
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:I think we established that it's latte art and laneway graffiti. It depends on how new the group is. With a bunch of newish players, I will always start at first level. You have enough powers, especially with themes, to keep things interesting, and allow the players to learn the system. With a more experienced group I find the sweet spot for starting is probably 5 or 8.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:33
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After playing 4e for like 8 years, we are diving into Epic tier for the first time within the next handful of sessions. I think my favorite range is mid-Heroic to mid-Paragon, though, at least so far.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:37
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It definitely feels like 5-15 is the level range where things are most interesting and don't get bogged down, yeah. Also, congrats on the 8 year campaign.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:45
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Lemon-Lime posted:It definitely feels like 5-15 is the level range where things are most interesting and don't get bogged down, yeah. At 20th level now, we've already exceeded our previous level limits. But going into Epic tier ... man, that's uncharted territory, there. The strength of the Zeitgeist adventure path (and the relatively strong encounter design) are giving us a good boost.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:12
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The first 4e campaign I started right after the rules dropped went on for three years and we went from 1-30. It was loving rad. Fighters own.
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Jun 3, 2016 17:35
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Slight hitch in my plan for Paragon Path-based enemies in that the warlock player wants to go with Hexer, which pretty much just mass-curses enemies and doesn't really provide super interesting abilities, plus I have to give that enemy some sort of curse mechanic now, but I'll make the best of it. Might base it on a Mummy from MV, actually. Mass curse the party to take ongoing damage or be slowed, hmmm...
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Jun 4, 2016 12:15
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My Lovely Horse posted:Slight hitch in my plan for Paragon Path-based enemies in that the warlock player wants to go with Hexer, which pretty much just mass-curses enemies and doesn't really provide super interesting abilities, plus I have to give that enemy some sort of curse mechanic now, but I'll make the best of it. Might base it on a Mummy from MV, actually. Mass curse the party to take ongoing damage or be slowed, hmmm... I've been meaning for years to play a Revenant Vestige Warlock as a mummy, actually. A dead priest of dead gods.
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Jun 4, 2016 15:38
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Level 5 is a good place to start. Two feats provides some customization to builds, two dailies at 5 is nice to have some choice rather than "this is the one where I daily". I like 10 through 18 or so - a lot of PPs best features come in at either 11 or 16, so having a few levels to play with them is nice. The E17s are usually cool too. But encounters definitely start to drag at high paragon.
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Jun 4, 2016 16:26
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I'm a bit confused as to who is arguing what now. This thread tends towards CharOp discussion quite a bit, but the whole point of a balanced design like 4e is it doesn't require a lot of System Mastery. Like the one thing you have to do is put at least a 16 in your class's primary ability (18's better obviously, but the system was designed with 16 as the base line.) Beyond that, you can do whatever, play a Gnome Warlord or give your Paladin an axe because the Order of St.Badass trains everyone as lumberjacks. That said, the jump between levels is big enough that yeah, all the PCs should be the same level.
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Jun 4, 2016 20:21
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Maxwell Lord posted:I'm a bit confused as to who is arguing what now. But the main thing I think is that 4e isn't actually perfect as written. It's kind of buggy and there are a lot of sacred cows that could still do with slaying, especially in the earlier stuff. It's probably still the most well balanced edition ever, warts and all, but there are still a lot of issues that can crop up when going just by the books. And I think most of us have internalized the accepted fixes to the point where we don't remember it being any other way.
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Jun 4, 2016 20:56
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Maxwell Lord posted:I'm a bit confused as to who is arguing what now. Nobody's saying everyone has to op everything. We're saying that 4e creaks at the seams when PCs get more than a couple of levels apart, and breaks outright when those levels are across tiers, because the game will either be boringly trivial or frustratingly difficult depending on whether you're of the lower or higher level, and depending on which levels the monsters are. If everyone's playing at the same levels and broadly the same level of optimisation, the DM can pitch the level of game at the right point. If not, it becomes a lot harder. Pharmaskittle posted:I do want to ask a non dnd philosophy question, tho. I'm playing an Ardent in my Dark Sun game and, while I crank out heals like nobody's business, I'm finding myself getting downed almost every fight. I've taken a halberd to get myself a little distance, and I think I'm probably one of the more tactically proficient players in the group at 4e, but I'm still getting wrecked and counting on a hybrid healer to get me up in the last quarter of most fights. We tend to play pretty mercilessly no matter who's DMing since we know the system can handle a balanced fight with no punches being pulled, but no other characters seem to be having this issue. Any generic advice? Ardents are difficult - they're a frontline melee class without frontline melee defences, armour proficiencies, or HP, and without the initiative to get out first for the majority of builds. I played one for a while and found much the same thing. Talk to your defender and/or controller, and work on your tactics, is my only really useful advice assuming your build is decent.
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Jun 6, 2016 09:35
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Valorous bard can also cover some of the same stuff if you aren't wedded to being a power point psionic class. If you can swing your stats you might also be able to pick up scale proficiency and something like hafted defense on your polearm, but that's not much of a band-aid.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:09
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Yeah, it's sad but Bards can do basically everything Ardents can do only better and not as fiddly.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:52
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It is Dark Sun, though, so Arcane and Divine are kind of out of the question, right?
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Jun 7, 2016 18:54
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Eh, kinda I guess.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:08
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There's nothing a bard can do that can't be reskinned as psychic.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:12
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I think No luck needed is just proof that playing bad RPG systems eventually gives you Elfgame-PTSD. Only with years of therapy and a good counsellor, can you overcome your addiction to versimilitude, charts, and Thac0. It's not his fault he's a lovely DM, all of his experiences have led him to this point. Just feel sorry for him.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:20
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Drewjitsu posted:I think No luck needed is just proof that playing bad RPG systems eventually gives you Elfgame-PTSD. Only with years of therapy and a good counsellor, can you overcome your addiction to versimilitude, charts, and Thac0. It's not his fault he's a lovely DM, all of his experiences have led him to this point. Just feel sorry for him. Come on, don 't be an idiot. There's nothing wrong with liking or playing 2e or previous editions of the game, and he wasn't wrong or lovely for enjoying those. The problem was that he was taking preconceptions about how to run the game from those editions and applying them to 4e, and those preconceptions don't fit 4e. That's a mistake, and an honest one, not some lovely elfgames disorder.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:38
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thespaceinvader posted:Eh, kinda I guess. I'm just saying: All Warlords, All the Time.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:38
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