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the game is cool
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Jun 9, 2016 17:38
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Rakthar posted:Because it loving sucks to chase AI armies around your territory and not catch them AND have them sack your cities in the process. I don't agree that Chaos should be unplayable because you don't build walls, to be quite honest.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:39
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Rakthar posted:I believe the big change is that you can go into Force March even if you've moved that turn. I'm pretty sure in Rome 2 you couldn't. This would spike the difficulty for chaos and make them much more annoying to play as. Sack-> encamp is a mainstay of using their armies well. As is, it makes razing a tactical choice, since it leaves you more vulnerable at the end of your turn than just sacking.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:39
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Stanley Pain posted:Re: The AI having crazy movement. I have seen this several times in my Dwarf campaign against Grimgor. He's moved his army across the badlands to hit Iron Rock or a reinforcing army north of it, attack, and then move far enough away that the army can't be seen again.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:40
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madmac posted:I don't agree that Chaos should be unplayable because you don't build walls, to be quite honest. I don't agree that the 10 lovely neighbors around you should be able to sack your cities at will even though you have a stack trying to kill them for 'horde gameplay.' Is Chaos that important to you to make the campaign lovely for every faction? People do not enjoy chasing whack a mole Sack stacks, there has been no shortage of feedback on that. The second most popular mod is the 10% own territory movement speed mod for that reason.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:41
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Rakthar posted:Because it loving sucks to chase AI armies around your territory and not catch them AND have them sack your cities in the process. That's why you build garrisons, agents, or use ambush mode? Or pay the price if you take the risk and don't? If there wasn't a risk of an army going on a rampage through your undefended economic cities, wouldn't garrisons, agents, all those mechanics to defend yourself from sackers, just be for suckers?
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Jun 9, 2016 17:41
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Fangz posted:That's why you build garrisons, agents, or use ambush mode? Or pay the price if you take the risk and don't? If there wasn't a risk of an army going on a rampage through your undefended economic cities, wouldn't garrisons, agents, all those mechanics to defend yourself from sackers, just be for suckers? Isn't that what Armies were used for ,to kill enemy armies? or no? I guess no since they could never catch them, historically?
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Jun 9, 2016 17:42
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Rakthar posted:Isn't that what Armies were used for ,to kill enemy armies? or no? I guess no since they could never catch them, historically? You can kill them if you use ambush mode.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:43
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Rakthar posted:Isn't that what Armies were used for ,to kill enemy armies? or no? I guess no since they could never catch them, historically? Its not trivial to force engagements with someone avoiding it, no.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:44
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Fangz posted:You can kill them if you use ambush mode. This is reddit.txt stuff. What happens if you don't roll the 50% on that ambush and they move past you? You'll never be able to catch up to them. Is that your fault for not having the perfect defense of agents and garrisons ready for every opportunity even though you're limited on funds, armies, slots, and money for the first 50 turns? Chasing armies around that can keep loving with you and you can't catch sucks. If this is the only way to make Chaos work, I propose finding another way.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:45
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Rakthar posted:I don't agree that the 10 lovely neighbors around you should be able to sack your cities at will even though you have a stack trying to kill them for 'horde gameplay.' Is Chaos that important to you to make the campaign lovely for every faction? People do not enjoy chasing whack a mole Sack stacks, there has been no shortage of feedback on that. The second most popular mod is the 10% own territory movement speed mod for that reason. Outside the first few turns of a campaign this almost never happens to me, because I build walls and use agents and ambush stance when needed to trap attackers. Late game it happens occasionally but at that point having a single small city sacked is pretty much a yawn-worthy event that sets the settlement back a couple turns. Even the odd razed minor settlement doesn't merit much more than "whatever" late game.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:46
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You can even plan ahead by not building a garrison building in one minor settlement and put your defensive army in ambush mode outside of it. It looks like a nice, easier target than your other settlements with walls and draws the AI to you.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:46
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I mean if you want to play the 'historically' card, you can look at all the times the Mongols ran rings around their enemies and where it took many times the force across several armies to corner say, Spartacus' rebel slaves. In the end, yeah, sacking is strong in this game. *That's why you can sack as well*. You should do it and run rings around the enemy, and lure them into traps and leave their economy in flames. It's fun, and a good changeup from previous games. Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 17:46
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Rakthar posted:Because it loving sucks to chase AI armies around your territory and not catch them AND have them sack your cities in the process. Build walls, block movement, and ambush stance all help with this. I used to think this was a bigger problem, but after playing and watching people rage about literally impossible scenarios I'm pretty sure it's just a combination of mechanics ignorance and people wanting the game to exactly conform to their preferred style of play.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:49
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Well, I'm glad that we've decided that the AI's ability to sack you is great stuff and that people enjoy the CA gameplay as delivered. Hell they've captured the flavor of the mongols and the roman rebels. They're just giving the fans what they want to great critical and financial success. So the next time the AI moves past your defending stack, sacks your city, and ends the turn outside your movement range - remember. People love that poo poo.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:51
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Fangz posted:I mean if you want to play the 'historically' card, you can look at all the times the Mongols ran rings around their enemies and where it took many times the force across several armies to corner say, Spartacus' rebel slaves. History is full of battles between armies that both thought they could win or knew they needed to win or all was lost. One side forcing the other to fight just by chasing them down is comparatively quite rare. I wouldn't say no to Chaos having a sack+encamp option and that just being a horde thing.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:51
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Rakthar posted:Well, I'm glad that we've decided that the AI's ability to sack you is great stuff and that people enjoy the CA gameplay as delivered. Hell they've captured the flavor of the mongols and the roman rebels. They're just giving the fans what they want to great critical and financial success. Adjust your strategy, or download mods to change things bro. It's not a universal problem, and your mad posting isn't going to change it.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:52
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Rygar201 posted:Adjust your strategy, or download mods to change things bro. It's not a universal problem, and your mad posting isn't going to change it. Exactly, this guy loving loves it. Get good scrubs.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:53
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Rakthar posted:Well, I'm glad that we've decided that the AI's ability to sack you is great stuff and that people enjoy the CA gameplay as delivered. Hell they've captured the flavor of the mongols and the roman rebels. They're just giving the fans what they want to great critical and financial success. It sucks when you are outplayed by the AI yeah. But I'd rather that than a system where I can't lose. If you want that, then I guess there's mods for that. And yes, I do loving love it when I raid the undefended belly of an enemy empire for 30k, or when I trick the AI with an ambush stack and smash the poo poo out of him.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:53
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Stanley Pain posted:Re: The AI having crazy movement. I don't see how this is a cheat since it is something I do all the time (move to a city, sack it, and then move away). As for your second point, I think there should be a way to hover over an enemy army and 'see' their movement range on the campaign map. It is pretty funny that the AI can manage to stay just out of my range, I will get a +% campaign movement bonus from a magic item or something, and the next turn they will still be juuuust out of range. If not an even better option might be just to tweak the AI to not have perfect knowledge of your armies movement range (so at times they waste movement going too far away, and at times you can still catch them).
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Jun 9, 2016 17:53
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Rakthar posted:Well, I'm glad that we've decided that the AI's ability to sack you is great stuff and that people enjoy the CA gameplay as delivered. Hell they've captured the flavor of the mongols and the roman rebels. They're just giving the fans what they want to great critical and financial success. this is actually fun for me because it makes the game more challenging and creates the potential for me to lose. I know some people don't like losing, but hey, sometimes that's part of life buddy.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:54
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Rakthar posted:This is reddit.txt stuff. What happens if you don't roll the 50% on that ambush and they move past you? You'll never be able to catch up to them. Is that your fault for not having the perfect defense of agents and garrisons ready for every opportunity even though you're limited on funds, armies, slots, and money for the first 50 turns?  Anytime my ambush doesn't trigger I can catch the armies because they spent a bunch of movement points moving towards me.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:54
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Rakthar posted:Exactly, this guy loving loves it. Get good scrubs. Try building walls, seriously. The AI will almost never attack a walled settlement without stopping to build towers, giving you all the time in the world to react. madmac fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 17:55
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drat Dirty Ape posted:I don't see how this is a cheat since it is something I do all the time (move to a city, sack it, and then move away). As for your second point, I think there should be a way to hover over an enemy army and 'see' their movement range on the campaign map. It is pretty funny that the AI can manage to stay just out of my range, I will get a +% campaign movement bonus from a magic item or something, and the next turn they will still be juuuust out of range. You can click on any enemy unit or agent in the strategy layer and it overlays a red area showing their movement range. I'm not sure if this includes stances, it might just be normal movement.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:56
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It's not "the perfect defense", it just means you have to remember that you have to recruit and use agents (which are good for more than this as well), build up a bit more slowly so you have garrisons ready, and remember that ambush mode exists. I got creamed on my first Empire campaign on Normal because I didn't want to waste money and building slots on garrisons and didn't bother with agents or ambush. I have since learned to do these things. I still lose the occasional city (as dwarfs on Hard now) due to overreaching or bad luck, but that's part of the fun. It would be boring to steamroll over everything and not be kept on my toes. If you don't like that, CA has made it very easy to mod to your preference, but it is very possible to play within the vanilla constraints and have fun, and I would rather the game take a bit of learning than have it tweaked to be easier for most while breaking Chaos. There are definitely issues like with the AI being hyper efficient about using and leveling agents, but campaign movement is fine. Sacking settlements and running away before armies can catch them has been your standard barbarian/horde M.O. for tens of thousands of years.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:57
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Ugh the strategy layer is boring, the AI is so hapless! Ugh the strategy layer is terrible, the AI is always outmaneuvering me and sacking my undefended settlements! Christ, are you serious? If you just want to slam armies together play custom battles or multi player.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:59
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Fangz posted:You can click on any enemy unit or agent in the strategy layer and it overlays a red area showing their movement range. I'm not sure if this includes stances, it might just be normal movement. It actually does include stances, which makes it nearly useless. If they're in Encamp or Raid stance, their move bubble is drastically reduced even though they can swap out of that stance on their turn and march-murder you. I've tried exactly what you're describing and it doesn't always help
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Jun 9, 2016 18:00
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Rakthar posted:This is reddit.txt stuff. What happens if you don't roll the 50% on that ambush and they move past you? You'll never be able to catch up to them. Is that your fault for not having the perfect defense of agents and garrisons ready for every opportunity even though you're limited on funds, armies, slots, and money for the first 50 turns? Train agents to block armies. It makes it easy to catch them, and blocking generally has a higher success rate than assassination. Also the AI blocks armies frequently and I think sometimes people just click through the agent news without noticing that one or more of their armies got blocked. e: Fangz posted:You can click on any enemy unit or agent in the strategy layer and it overlays a red area showing their movement range. I'm not sure if this includes stances, it might just be normal movement. Huh, how did I not notice this. Woops! Kaza42 posted:It actually does include stances, which makes it nearly useless. If they're in Encamp or Raid stance, their move bubble is drastically reduced even though they can swap out of that stance on their turn and march-murder you. I've tried exactly what you're describing and it doesn't always help Doh! Damn Dirty Ape fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 18:01
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Kaza42 posted:It actually does include stances, which makes it nearly useless. If they're in Encamp or Raid stance, their move bubble is drastically reduced even though they can swap out of that stance on their turn and march-murder you. I've tried exactly what you're describing and it doesn't always help Ah okay, yeah I'd consider this an UI bug. It should just always show normal movement range.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:03
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Rakthar posted:Because it loving sucks to chase AI armies around your territory and not catch them AND have them sack your cities in the process. Im going to agree here. As a new player / not super total warhammer elite player it can be really frustrating to have the AI dance corners around you. If you miscalculate your ambush, or dont deploy exactly right the AI player dances around your armies, sacks the town way behind you and runs away outside of your engagement range. As a new player it can be hard to find out how to stop this, the game doesn't display that information well, nor does it tell you you can attack and change your stance to run away. What the player instead sees is being unable to catch the AI army to initate a battle, which is frustrating.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:06
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Fangz posted:Ah okay, yeah I'd consider this an UI bug. It should just always show normal movement range. Realistically it should show all 3 using different colors in layers, like how the UI can show multiple moves in different colors. Also, forced could probably be taken away after an offensive action for no real loss once people adjusted. Sack should stay mostly free, and encamp should stay. But seriously, they really need to allow you to reset your move if you haven't deselected an army. The number of times I've clicked incorrectly and burned an agents move points is kinda infuriating. Disable it if you march into an ambush or zone of control, but at least let me clear my clicking fuckups without having to constantly quick save. Mazz fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 18:07
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Mazz posted:Realistically it should show all 3 using different colors in layers, like how the UI can show multiple moves in different colors. I think having multiple colours like that would overcomplicate things. The threat range is the only really useful range. Also undo is something persistently asked for in strategy games but typically not offered because of hidden information - your agent, by going to a location has revealed stuff for you. Not just fog of war, but stuff like the absence of ambushing enemies and stuff like that. Even if you did intelligently disable undo, it might come across as confusing when and when not the feature is available. Edit: I'd say that the biggest relevance for forced-after-attack is that it allows two chaos stacks to participate in the same battle and avoid attrition afterwards. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 18:17
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One of the most amusing/irritating things is watching the AI actively gently caress with you. I don't know whether it's poor AI logic or really good AI logic, but watching a stack hop back and forth between two spots as you try and chase it in circles rather than retreat back to home like its clearly trying to do is really pretty funny. Is there a way to game underway interceptions or something because christ almighty watching an orc army hop from one side of a mountain to the other for six turns is kind of grating.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:21
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The main reasons I save scum in this game are misclicks and/or misunderstanding the rules, which happens often enough I generally save at the beginning of every turn (I dislike that auto-save happens on the end of a turn).
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Jun 9, 2016 18:24
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drat Dirty Ape posted:The main reasons I save scum in this game are misclicks and/or misunderstanding the rules, which happens often enough I generally save at the beginning of every turn (I dislike that auto-save happens on the end of a turn). 
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Jun 9, 2016 18:31
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Wilekat posted:Is there a way to game underway interceptions or something because christ almighty watching an orc army hop from one side of a mountain to the other for six turns is kind of grating.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:34
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I feel like there might be too many underwhelming or "trap" skills on Lords and could contribute to the AI being weaker as the game goes on and lords gain levels. A example from confederating and taking over two dwarf lords just now. One had full combat skills without foe seeker unlocked, he had 3 points in charge for +9 total damage on a charge and 3% personal weapon damage against greenskins only. The other had 6% chance of intercepting underway armies, -1 siege holdout time (when they can hold for 15 turns) and +3 leadership during underway battles.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:37
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Yeah I generally junk AI lords I confederate or relegate them to troop transport duty. Is it possible to mod AI behavior such that they choose to spec combat, army, or support oriented lords as needed? The current system hurts the AI and then the player when they confederate.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:40
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Dwarf lords also get that sick ability to put down 15% attrition damage every turn in a siege, when arguably they need something like that the least. Against a high level garrison and full stack defended town, that is like 400 casualties a turn.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:43
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They should just give armies bigger zones of control. Half the reason AI armies are so annoying is it that it's basically impossible to impede movement in any way (besides an agent action). Hell you can be in the middle of a loving mountain pass and they'll walk right by you even without the underway. Zones of control are stupid small as may well not exist in the current implementation. If you have an army parked in the middle of a road/pass it should be basically impossible for the enemy to just walk right around you without so much as slowing down.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:49
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