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open24hours posted:Is your imagination so limited that locking people up in prison the only way you can think of to deter crime? Noooo, and I don't know how you got that from what I said to you... Oh, you're pissed off because I called you an idiot. Well, okay.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:30 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:26 |
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chyaroh posted:Put it this way. Two people commit the same crime. One is rich, one is not. The offence has an option of either jail or paying a large fine and wandering off scott free afterwards. Can you say justice is served if the poor person goes to jail and the rich one pays a fine and goes back to their life? This isn't about buying your way out of prison, and there's no world in which I'd argue that rich and poor offenders should receive different sentences based on their ability to pay. Sending people to prison doesn't make the world a better place, it doesn't improve the lives of victim or the perpetrator, it's very expensive and it causes all sorts of social problems. It's something that should be avoided if at all possible, and for people who don't pose a risk to public safety there is absolutely no value in locking them up other than sating the blood-lust of the more sadistic parts of society. Starshark posted:Noooo, and I don't know how you got that from what I said to you... Oh, you're pissed off because I called you an idiot. Well, okay. If there are viable alternatives, and you are aware of them, then why would you ask how else we could deter people from committing crimes? open24hours fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jun 10, 2016 |
# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:33 |
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open24hours posted:This isn't about buying your way out of prison, and there's no world in which I'd argue that rich and poor offenders should receive different sentences based on their ability to pay. The "different sentences based on their ability to pay" seems to be exactly what that article was arguing for. That's the bit that's objectionable. On the other hand, I agree that there have to be better options for the judges than just "lock 'em up and throw away the key" for crimes that are non-violent, and for people that need genuine help rather than being stuck in a cell. In a perfect world jail would be both a deterrent/punishment, AND a place where prisoners could be rehabilitated. Unfortunately we are stuck with the system as it is at the moment with a lack of will on all parties to change it up.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:40 |
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Prison should always be a last resort. Violence involved or not. The only purpose it serves is to separate someone from society. This is part of what makes mandatory sentencing of any kind ridiculous and self defeating. If financial poo poo smear McMoneybags is likely to continue clubbing or cheating grannies for spare change then he needs to be separated from society regardless of whether they can pay back what they stole. It is already the case that the wealthy have a better deal with the courts (seeing as how they can afford to actually use them). gently caress giving them more privileges. http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/behead.html beheading was pretty popular until quite recently in Europe.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:47 |
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V for Vegas posted:Prison does deter many, many people from committing crimes. All because it is not a perfect deterrent doesn't invalidate it. A strong argument always leads with a "no, you" statement. Eh look it's more to do with how humans behave. In a perfect/crazy world, if you did something wrong, you'd be punished/whatever right then and there, because then you would ~associate~ that action with the punishment. The threat of that punishment would therefore be a deterrent. I would argue that it's probably something like injunctive norms which deter people from just committing a shitload of crime. People have an expectation on how they shoud behave, as well as how others should behave. The injunctive norms are free to vary across society, and explains why people still perform actions which are considered illegal (because the individual feels like they can behave in that manner). I'd argue that due to the lengthy delay between action -> gaol, going to gaol is actually a ~consequence~ of your action. Punishment, by definition, is supposed to reduce the frequency of some behaviour and really gaol isn't an effective punishment/deterrent. I'm personally fine with gaol being a consequence for the action, but I think any punishment in this system right now is the immediate loss of freedoms/restrictions placed on the individual immediately after they are taken into custody. In many cases, this can be after "getting caught", so really this person may just aim to not get caught in the future. This is also why rehabilitation/education/support in prison is a cool and good thing because we want to break this cycle of disenfranchisement. That's why it's poo poo when we cut support programs inside prisons because we are being "too soft on crime".
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:47 |
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Recoome posted:This is also why rehabilitation/education/support in prison is a cool and good thing because we want to break this cycle of disenfranchisement. That's why it's poo poo when we cut support programs inside prisons because we are being "too soft on crime". It's also to do with the crazy societal ethics we seem to have where the further up the rich/white scale you are, the less responsible you have to be, hence the victim-blaming of the LNP on poor/not-so-white. If rich = automatically good, then there's already a bias. And you can't be "tough on crime" as a politician and punish members of your own social class, can you. On the other hand, witness the difficulty NT "justice" has had with integrating some tribal law into the system so that young offenders can be policed by their tribe rather than the throw-away-the-key system. But this offends racist whites, so they fight back. Recently they built a lovely new jail in the middle of nowhere, so far away that it makes it difficult for family visits. And the government refused to make transport available. NT does tend to be rather obvious in these ways, but it's the same but more subtle in the rest of the country. Options? Don't make me laugh, there's been plenty of options for decades.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:01 |
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Oh cool Labor is supporting the Coalition with cuts to family payments
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:07 |
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open24hours posted:Sending people to prison doesn't make the world a better place, it doesn't improve the lives of victim or the perpetrator, it's very expensive and it causes all sorts of social problems. It's something that should be avoided if at all possible, and for people who don't pose a risk to public safety there is absolutely no value in locking them up other than sating the blood-lust of the more sadistic parts of society. All but the last clause of this is 100% spot on, but I do remember the reality of hearing CFOs and directors saying "you can't do this, I'll go to jail". And I wish I could think of something that inspired anywhere near as much fear. Regardless of your wealth you only have maybe 2.5 billion seconds on this planet, and it's a great equalizer
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:16 |
You Am I posted:Oh cool Labor is supporting the Coalition with cuts to family payments They are making the hard decisions. Like they always do, to take away from those most in need. They wont make the hard decisions like close corporate tax loopholes. gently caress the ALP with a bus.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:33 |
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Recoome posted:A strong argument always leads with a "no, you" statement. I think this is the 3rd or 4th time the deterrence/rehabilitation argument has washed through the auspol thread.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:38 |
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Twinkle twinkle little star Shorten copies some policies and goes too far
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:40 |
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You Am I posted:Oh cool Labor is supporting the Coalition with cuts to family payments Yeah it's on the front page of the Telegraph as "REVEALED: SHORTEN SLASHES FAMILY WELFARE"
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:59 |
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the correct deterrence for white collar crime is a bullet
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:14 |
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Solemn Sloth posted:the correct deterrence for white collar crime is a bullet That's not very environmentally friendly, we want sustainable multiple use killing machines. It rhymes with Kill-o-tine.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:29 |
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My office is engaged in a political debate about dole bludgers and the HR manager is actually advocating work for the dole because 'they can just pick up garbage or something' yeah ok so we will just pay every dole bludger 60k a year which is roughly what a full time garbo gets then? oh no no no guys you dont pay them the same amount as someone who WANTS to do the work you pay them the same as they currently get on the dole soooo you will pay them less than minimum wage to do the same job as someone else with the only difference being one person was offered the job and someone else wasnt? yes This was after i pointed out that the vast majority of welfare goes to old people and not dole bludgers, with proof from this thread.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:32 |
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Big story out of Victoria that could have federal ramifications - Jane Garrett has resigned as Emergency Services minister over the CFA/UFU stoush. The Herald Scum is going to have a field day over this http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/emergency-services-minister-jane-garrett-has-resigned-20160610-gpg0on.html The Age posted:Daniel Andrews' Emergency Services Minister Jane Garrett has quit the cabinet over the proposed deal with the militant firefighters union.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:36 |
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V for Vegas posted:I think this is the 3rd or 4th time the deterrence/rehabilitation argument has washed through the auspol thread. Thanks for your insightful and meaning contribution
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:55 |
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hooman posted:That's not very environmentally friendly, we want sustainable multiple use killing machines. Not if you pronounce it correctly it doesn't.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:03 |
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Its rhymes with creatine
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:08 |
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This was assumed yesterday but here's the confirmation. "Police confirmed Sourian did not stab anyone and the three bystanders, who include an 82-year-old woman and 65-year-old woman, are in a stable condition in hospital." Man with knife runs at cops, cops open fire and shoot knife man and 3 bystanders. EDIT: Apparently it wasn't even a knife, it was a pair of scissors. hooman fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jun 10, 2016 |
# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:15 |
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Labor removing natural alternative health scams from private insurance rebate lmao nice
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:17 |
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wombat74 posted:Big story out of Victoria that could have federal ramifications - Jane Garrett has resigned as Emergency Services minister over the CFA/UFU stoush. The Herald Scum is going to have a field day over this Bad luck, we're heading into a weekend, and it could bugger up plans for the new week's narratives. And since it's a State issue it'll fizzle nationally. Dan might have made a strategic error though, this gives Garrett ammo for the future. Expect the issue to blow up during the summer.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:17 |
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Still banging on about budget repair tho
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:19 |
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wombat74 posted:Big story out of Victoria that could have federal ramifications - Jane Garrett has resigned as Emergency Services minister over the CFA/UFU stoush. The Herald Scum is going to have a field day over this I doubt if anyone outside of News Corpse will care about this story. Probably the first big hit to the Andrews Government though
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:29 |
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You Am I posted:I doubt if anyone outside of News Corpse will care about this story. Given Turnbull showed up at the CFA rally last weekend and the Lib talking points were how the ALP didn't send anyone, they'll definitely try and turn it into an issue. At the very least to try and shift attention away from Parakeelia
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 05:12 |
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Well that sure escalated UPDATE: The government has given the Country Fire Authority board until 5pm to accept the controversial deal with the firefighters' union — or face dismissal. The ultimatum was delivered on Friday afternoon by Deputy Premier James Merlino, as he was announced as a replacement for former Emergency Services Minister Jane Garrett.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 05:52 |
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Other posted:Well that sure escalated I believe there's also a court injunction preventing them from meeting to accept the deal until Tuesday 4:30.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:09 |
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:11 |
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hooman posted:This was assumed yesterday but here's the confirmation. Good to know police are fuckups here too. If that edit is true though, god drat.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:19 |
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https://twitter.com/AntonyGreenABC/status/741133973817053184
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:27 |
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Police take running with scissors very seriously.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:28 |
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can't wait for the no anti paedophile party to be the deciding vote
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:31 |
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Ooooh boy
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:36 |
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Magog posted:Good to know police are fuckups here too. If that edit is true though, god drat. A couple of the witnesses spoke about scissors and there's a photo of the scissors on the ground at the scene so it seems that way at the moment, but not officially confirmed yet.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:38 |
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Shame, Shame, Shame Australia
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:38 |
Isn't voting due to start in a month?
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:43 |
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tbf to the coppers, a pair of scissors are like double the knife! So what's the deal with not randomising the ballot papers? Just to make the job easier for vote counters and scrutineers?
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:43 |
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Change ballot papers to circles, with text aligned along the radius such that there is no first position.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:57 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:tbf to the coppers, a pair of scissors are like double the knife! I'd imagine they are printed like newspapers. And that doing multiple runs and coming up with a way to randomise them is too much work/money.
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# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:57 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:26 |
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I made a formal report at the local police station earlier, regarding the vehicle that reversed into me and my motorbike yesterday. I'm happy that the plates matched the description of the vehicle, and given it was a hit and run I'm hopefully, almost certain to be reimbursed for damages. The plates were registered to an address in Ballarat... Maybe that explains why he was so uncooperative, possible UPF soldier?? On the reals, I'm quite happy that I memorised the plates correctly until I arrived where my exam was about to be underway.. what a loving day. I just hope I can get the money back for my destroyed tire and towing bills... Disclaimer: I don't advise riding anywhere with a blown front tire, because holy poo poo. But I had an exam to attend *shrugs* Redcordial fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jun 10, 2016 |
# ? Jun 10, 2016 07:00 |