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Desmond posted:I didn't say it was the same thing, in fact pointed out it wasn't the same thing as being sent to camps. If you haven't seen the movie yet, the suicide was prompted by the parents' severe religious over-protection to begin with. No, it wasn't. The parents were religious and overprotective, but they're not abusive, they're not violent, and they don't go around the bend until the youngest girl, Cecilia, jumps out of her bedroom window after previously attempting to kill herself by slitting her wrists. Cecilia's suicide is never explained in such clear and facile terms; in the book, the boys across the street even find and read her diary, trying to figure out why she'd kill herself, and there's nothing it in that explains anything. Her diary entries (which also feature in the movie) don't explain her suicide. The psychiatrist's theory that she killed herself because of sexual repression is just as facile and nonexplanatory. The neighbors' varying explanations, that she just did it as a way to get a boy's attention, or for unrequited 13-year-old love, are just as facile and nonexplanatory. That's a big part of the point: you, the viewer, are like the boys and like the girls' parents, watching them from afar and knowing what they do, but not knowing who they are. The book and the film (which is a masterpiece, it's an amazing film that was infinitely better than the similar _American Beauty_ of the same year) have a *lot* more going on in them than "religious nutbag parents drove their children to suicide." Phanatic has a new favorite as of 22:38 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 22:26
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The book is also really good. I like Jeffrey Eugenides a lot.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:30
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Crow Jane posted:The thing that kills me about my friend who had to go through that is that she is genuinely one of the sweetest, kindest, most generous people I've ever known. Once I had to cancel plans with her due to coming down with the flu, and she dropped by my apartment with a pint of miso soup and a couple DVDs on her way to the venue, because she wanted me to have a nice evening even if I couldn't go out. I can't imagine any parent not being proud of someone like that. I didn't meet her til we were both in our early twenties, and I've never met her parents, but goddamn do I have some choice words for them. Of course, the hosed up thing is that they would probably claim responsibility for her being such a great person. Their "intervention" really worked miracles! (And see? It obviously does NOT mess kids up; she's perfect evidence)
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Jun 9, 2016 22:35
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When I pointed out to my fundamentalist mother-in-law that my wife and I (both irreligious) are both good and decent people without Jesus her explanation was that this is because we were raised by Christians, implying that our son will not be a good person because of our lack of Jesus. So yes, they would claim responsibility for her positive qualities.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:47
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Imagined posted:When I pointed out to my fundamentalist mother-in-law that my wife and I (both irreligious) are both good and decent people without Jesus her explanation was that this is because we were raised by Christians, implying that our son will not be a good person because of our lack of Jesus. So yes, they would claim responsibility for her positive qualities. This argument never works with my fundie friends & family, either. (My wife was raised fundamentalist Christian and I was in that environment for about 10 years myself, but never as a child.) The answer is usually "but without Jesus in your heart it's all for naught" In other words, it's not about your actions or character, it's only about jeebus in your heart. I tried to show my wife some of the kidnapping posts and she couldn't finish reading them. She found them too upsetting, having known a couple of her childhood friends that went to some camp(s) of similar nature. And while the camps may be going away, there are other things taking their place. A good example is "Journey With Christ", a drat-near kidnap-type experience for a 3-4 day weekend in isolation with other youth. The kids get broken down over a couple days, then "rebuilt in his image". It's terrible and while not as outwardly terrible as the camps, it's still plenty bad.
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Jun 9, 2016 23:01
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Basebf555 posted:drat I'm a Jew who's never been anywhere except the East and West coast of the country. If I ever went to some of these southern states it would probably feel like I stepped into a bizarro universe. It would probably be a bit scary to be honest. My now best friend is a non practicing Jew who moved from San Diego to Austin during my high school years, back in the early 2000's. He loathed everything about Austin, Texas's most progressive city, so I don't doubt your experience would be much different. If you hate humidity, bugs, Latinos, gentrification, country Bros, heat and hippies, you'll find something to hate in Austin.
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Jun 9, 2016 23:06
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Since I'm still playing catch up reading the thread, I did want to say thank you so much for the write ups Droogie. I remember when the West Mesa thing hit the news and people talking about it on the bus with our driver mentioning he'd known some of the women who turned up dead as they'd been on his bus. The Desert Sands, I go past there regularly on my way to UNM Main. I look forward to any more write ups you do and if you ever write a book, you've got a guaranteed sale with me.
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Jun 9, 2016 23:15
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Phanatic posted:No, it wasn't. The parents were religious and overprotective, but they're not abusive, they're not violent, and they don't go around the bend until the youngest girl, Cecilia, jumps out of her bedroom window after previously attempting to kill herself by slitting her wrists. Cecilia's suicide is never explained in such clear and facile terms; in the book, the boys across the street even find and read her diary, trying to figure out why she'd kill herself, and there's nothing it in that explains anything. Her diary entries (which also feature in the movie) don't explain her suicide. The psychiatrist's theory that she killed herself because of sexual repression is just as facile and nonexplanatory. The neighbors' varying explanations, that she just did it as a way to get a boy's attention, or for unrequited 13-year-old love, are just as facile and nonexplanatory. That's a big part of the point: you, the viewer, are like the boys and like the girls' parents, watching them from afar and knowing what they do, but not knowing who they are. The book and the film (which is a masterpiece, it's an amazing film that was infinitely better than the similar _American Beauty_ of the same year) have a *lot* more going on in them than "religious nutbag parents drove their children to suicide." gently caress, it was a simple recommendation for people who might be interested in religious neglect/abuse/bizarre behavior that this movie has some of that even though it isn't like sending your child to torture camp--which I clarified in my first post. But do go on putting words in my mouth and arguing with those words  From the author's site (http://jeffreyeugenides.weebly.com/the-virgin-suicides.html): quote:Religion Jenny of Oldstones has a new favorite as of 00:08 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 00:00
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Goons gotta goon
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Jun 10, 2016 00:26
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Crow Jane posted:It'd be one thing if it were Bauhaus. At the time, her favorite band was Belle and frickin' Sebastian. How on earth her parents found that threatening is beyond me. They have an album called The Boy With The Arab Strap. I'm not going to inquire as to how a pair of fundies knew what an Arab strap is, but if they're ignorant of the music and saw the album name I can well understand them thinking it was perverted and ungodly.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:17
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The "Jesus Camp" specific movement is known as the Charismatic Movement and is closely related to Pentecostalism. Most people in the south are familiar with Pentecostals because of some of their more wacky, sometimes niche beliefs like the handling of venomous snakes, speaking in tongues, and "holy rolling". (As an aside, my grandparents are Pentacostal... or at least, were when they were in better health and could drive themselves to the nearest church that's about an hour away. Some of the stories that my gran has told me of things going on in their services terrify me - for instance one woman was thrashing on the ground and was left under a pew for the whole service because they thought that God was on her. Turns out she had epilepsy and got so worked up she had several seizures all in a row.) Personally, I find this entire offshoot of belief pretty drat unnerving on it's own. Like... I mean... what? Ok, go grab that venomous snake, it's all good this one line in this book says it's ok and it won't bite you if you believe enough? Sure, right, got it. So all this Jesus torture camp stuff got me to wondering - do things like this exist in other religions and places in the world? I mean, clearly in certain Muslim areas there are even worse punishments for the "girls that just want to be a hairstylist" types ie: being thrown in a pit and stoned to death by all the men in their village but like.. What about Hindus? Tao/Shinto/other Asiatic religions? Or is it the fact that the core belief system / nature of the beliefs in Christianity are structured in a way that this is a uniquely American Christian thing? I feel like it must be, because we're the only country that's rich enough to pay someone to do this poo poo to our children. Also, here is a link with some more really  accounts of kids that were sent to one of these places: https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/q6is0/in_september_2009_after_admitting_to_my_parents/ edit: Damnit, as soon as I hit post I found this subreddit, which is a goldmine of horror for stories of survivors. https://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/17y4pr/american_companies_torturing_teens_for_profit_you/ That Damn Satyr has a new favorite as of 01:48 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 01:44
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Is there no way to protect kids from this type of abuse? Why are these camps even allowed? E: i went to 'church camp' as a kid with my youth group, but that was far and away different from the internment camps described above. We just played outside, worshipped and did a few little lessons. My last time at camp, we went whitewater rafting.  Aside from the church part, it was pretty fun.
DicktheCat has a new favorite as of 02:23 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 02:19
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DicktheCat posted:Is there no way to protect kids from this type of abuse? Why are these camps even allowed? In america children are considered the property of their parents, and legal authority can be transferred by contract. There's nothing anyone can do short of getting the camps shut down.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:29
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There seem to be a few motions to police this more, but... gently caress. From that reddit thread: https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/s1667 https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/hr3126 This seems a place teeming with people who want to fight these organizations: http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/index.php E: this is horrible and I hate it so much. I just want to put it right and I can't. I'm going to go play loco roco and pretend humans aren't real. This shouldn't be happening here. This shouldn't be happening anywhere. DicktheCat has a new favorite as of 03:26 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 03:11
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Have there been any incidents where kids get out once they turn 18 just to come back and murder a bunch of people at these places? Kids flip their poo poo being bullied at school I can't imagine these camps don't breed killers.
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Jun 10, 2016 03:39
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FalloutGod posted:Have there been any incidents where kids get out once they turn 18 just to come back and murder a bunch of people at these places? Kids flip their poo poo being bullied at school I can't imagine these camps don't breed killers. The first thing that came to mind was the dude that did the 2011 shootings in Norway, but that was a politically sponsored camp and he was just mad over Muslims. And anyway, it seems like if you try to go any sort of legal route these shithole places have the grounds to protect themselves. quote:http://powelltribune.com/news/item/14918-owners-of-clark-treatment-facility-sue-detractors-for-libel So... It doesn't really seem like there's any protection, period. The best you can hope for is that your friends find out what happens, educate themselves, and that they somehow manage to educate your parents - which is the purpose of the subreddit linked in the previous post. It's all a drat shame and my heart breaks for these kids because I know I was || close to being one of them, too.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:05
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I had an ex that went to one of those troubled teen places. She talked about them doing basically all of the poo poo that people have been talking about here. It was near where I went to college so I met a few other people who graduated from there and they all pretty much said the same thing. This was probably around eight years ago and the place has since closed down. We're still Facebook friends and apparently the place was never accredited so the diploma she got from there was bullshit, and she didn't find out until she tried to go back to college like a year ago.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:25
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The girl got released from the camp: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/09/lesbian-teen-released-from-gay-cure-camp-following-campaign-by-supergirl-actor-cousin/quote:But Mark Gregston, founder and executive director of Heartlight Ministries, which operates the Christian school in Texas, has now released a statement saying that Sarah has been released. I wonder if Sarah will speak out. Is she back living with her parents now? That seems awful.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:09
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Interestingly specific statement from the camp--I imagine their line is that you can't make gay people straight but can condition them to either be celibate or enter loveless marriages with other conditioned gays so that they never act on their genuine desire--and that such desires cause depression and self-esteem issues.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:42
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"Behavioral issues", my rear end. It's the same drat thing that happened to JFK's sister Rosemary, except in her case they had a prefrontal lobotomy performed on her, simply because she was a rebellious and assertive teenager. E: Seriously, this is part of one program's "teen assessment": quote:• Had any changes in behavior and / or mood? (i.e. sad, angry, withdrawn, etc.) E2: That drat Satyr posted:The first thing that came to mind was the dude that did the 2011 shootings in Norway, but that was a politically sponsored camp and he was just mad over Muslims. What Breivik did has absolutely no relation to these types of "camps". The island camp he shot up was a normal summer camp for members of AUF, the Norwegian Labour Party's youth organization. I can assure you that absolutely no brainwashing goes on there apart from the usual benign political party groupthink, and that everyone was there voluntarily. I know you're probably not trying to draw any parallels, I just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea 
KozmoNaut has a new favorite as of 10:09 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 09:34
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FalloutGod posted:Have there been any incidents where kids get out once they turn 18 just to come back and murder a bunch of people at these places? Kids flip their poo poo being bullied at school I can't imagine these camps don't breed killers. I had thoughts about this of course but I dismissed them because I'm not a psycho. I will say that the idea that none of the staff in Tranquility Bay will be held accountable does bother me even years later. Accountability was a big thing for me in general. I'm pretty sure everyone involved with it got away with it save a small civil lawsuit or two.
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Jun 10, 2016 11:31
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That drat Satyr posted:libel suit Haha gently caress, forcing kids to write positive reviews online so they can point to them later when the kids are finally able to speak out "Nuh huh! Look, you said right here on ratemytorturecamp.com that our place was awesome and that you'd totally send your own kids there!" How much time do these people spend coming up with new ways to be despicable monsters (in the name of Jesus)
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Jun 10, 2016 13:41
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You guys should watch the movie Sleepers. It's about a group of kids who got send there and who gets their revenge
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Jun 10, 2016 13:49
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TotalLossBrain posted:This argument never works with my fundie friends & family, either. (My wife was raised fundamentalist Christian and I was in that environment for about 10 years myself, but never as a child.) This is actually one of the founding beliefs of all branches of all Protestant sects descended from Lutheranism, the Reform Church, or Anabaptism. All of them argued for works being essentially meaningless and that faith is the only measure of someone's character. Hence why Anglicans, Catholics, and Episcopals all have some variant on the Righteous Heathen belief, but most American Protestants don't. Martin Luther and John Calvin were huge racist assholes who taught that every Jew and pagan was going hell, so now their follows continue that belief.
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Jun 10, 2016 14:08
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Grimlook posted:You guys should watch the movie Sleepers. It's about a group of kids who got send there and who gets their revenge I have to wonder how often one of the kids shivs a guard and runs
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Jun 10, 2016 14:13
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Cumslut1895 posted:I have to wonder how often one of the kids shivs a guard and runs Not very often. The camps are straight up designed to invoke feelings of helplessness and engender the kids with the idea that they can't do anything to overcome authority. While it sounds cool to think that that sort of treatment would cause people to rebel, usually they just give up and take it.
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Jun 10, 2016 14:15
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Crow Jane posted:It'd be one thing if it were Bauhaus. At the time, her favorite band was Belle and frickin' Sebastian. How on earth her parents found that threatening is beyond me. That's especially tragic because Stuart Murdoch, lead singer of Belle and Sebastian, is a committed Christian. He even runs his local church choir.
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Jun 10, 2016 14:32
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Imagined posted:You don't understand these people. I'm from Oklahoma. I know these people. The Devil is very literally real to them, and so anything that isn't explicitly, overtly pro-Jesus is actively anti-Jesus. I could go on, but you get the picture. Oklahoma is VERY fundamentalist. I moved to North Dakota, which is just as Republican, but mostly populated with Scandinavian Lutheran and German Catholic immigrants. It's worlds apart. Sure, they might vote for some stuff that makes me twitch, but they teach evolution and sex ed in schools without many complaints. Jedit posted:They have an album called The Boy With The Arab Strap. I'm not going to inquire as to how a pair of fundies knew what an Arab strap is, but if they're ignorant of the music and saw the album name I can well understand them thinking it was perverted and ungodly. I have no idea what an Arab strap is (something sexual?) but I'm assuming "Arab" is all they'd need to see to think it's Satanic.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:46
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KozmoNaut posted:"Behavioral issues", my rear end. This is a very recent leaflet sent out to schools/parents in the UK 
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Jun 10, 2016 15:50
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Jose posted:This is a very recent leaflet sent out to schools/parents in the UK So every teenager on this planet, right?
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Jun 10, 2016 16:11
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pookel posted:I have no idea what an Arab strap is (something sexual?) but I'm assuming "Arab" is all they'd need to see to think it's Satanic. It's a cockring, basically.
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Jun 10, 2016 16:48
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How is it that people who make it back to civilization don't hit up Department of Children's Services with allegations of child neglect? The statute of limitations doesn't end on your 18th birthday.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:22
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The futility of trying to get them busted was also probably beat into their heads as part of their "treatment." "Go ahead, call the cops. They won't find evidence of anything wrong here, and you'll be arrested for filing a false report. Then, we'll sue your family into oblivion for slander." It doesn't have to be true, just convincing enough.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:59
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Nth Doctor posted:How is it that people who make it back to civilization don't hit up Department of Children's Services with allegations of child neglect? The statute of limitations doesn't end on your 18th birthday. It's psychological conditioning. Another major major aspect is the idea that anybody who gets out of one of those places and manages to get back home will do anything to avoid going back. ANYTHING. Without going too far into personal details I spent the rest of my childhood doing whatever I could to make sure that he didn't send me back to a place like that. When you finally get away from a situation like that the feeling of relief greatly overrides that of revenge. That and simply not thinking about it is really the only thing you can do. I once joined a support group on Facebook for people that had been to TB to see how other people who had been sent there have been affected. The people there that dwelled on it the most seemed the most outwardly crazy by far. In fact it's pretty difficult to find a normal person who went through a category 5 facility when they were young. Crash_N_Burn has a new favorite as of 22:17 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 21:48
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pookel posted:One of the guys in my brother's D&D group had to tell him mom he was playing "military strategy games" because she'd heard D&D was satanic. This isn't particularly unnerving, but I had a boyfriend in college whose parents were extremely religious (Catholic). When he developed an interest in herpetology (reptile studies), his mom went, weeping, to their priest, concerned that their only son was worshiping the devil because he wanted to get a pet snake. The priest had to gently inform her that the whole snake in the garden of Eden thing was a metaphor and that snakes are god's creatures too, etc. etc. She finally relented and he ended up becoming a really fantastic reptile vet before he died tragically. 
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Jun 10, 2016 22:28
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Cumslut1895 posted:I have to wonder how often one of the kids shivs a guard and runs my friend went to one of these and if you disobeyed once you lost your shoe priveleges, even in winter. he managed to run away once though in spite of that, someone that lived nearby was kind enough to feed him and let him stay there for a while and did not call the police or the "school". also at that school the three big fat creeps that would physically restrain kids were named dick, woody, and cummings, but as far as I know there was no creepy sex poo poo going down at that place at least. when he got back home from there he was ripped and pissed (thanks to being forced to do pointless jobs like dump pebbles on a gravel road from sun up to sun down) and i watched him actually land roundhouse kicks and spinning backfists in street fights and poo poo haha but hes mellow now so thank god that place couldnt break him. his parents got him there by telling him his younger brother had a horrible accident and was in the hospital, and they needed to go be with him immediately. HORMELCHILI has a new favorite as of 23:04 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 23:00
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Maggie Fletcher posted:This isn't particularly unnerving, but I had a boyfriend in college whose parents were extremely religious (Catholic). When he developed an interest in herpetology (reptile studies), his mom went, weeping, to their priest, concerned that their only son was worshiping the devil because he wanted to get a pet snake. The priest had to gently inform her that the whole snake in the garden of Eden thing was a metaphor and that snakes are god's creatures too, etc. etc. drat I think I've got emotional whiplash from reading this little story
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Jun 10, 2016 23:03
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pookel posted:One of the guys in my brother's D&D group had to tell him mom he was playing "military strategy games" because she'd heard D&D was satanic. One of the kids in my school growing up wasn't allowed to watch Dragonball/Dragonball Z for similar reasons. Goku is the devil.
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Jun 10, 2016 23:20
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We weren't allowed to watch In Living Color but that's because my dad was a huge racist
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Jun 10, 2016 23:28
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So you didn't grow up screaming "Let me show you something!" impersonating Fire Marshall Bill?
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Jun 10, 2016 23:33
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