Questioner86 posted:If the community decides they want head popping simulator then I'm sure they'll make that desire known. Hint: that's what is happening right now.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:12
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Questioner86 posted:Sorry to hear you guys don't like the revised resist system, but I'm going to go ahead and deny any requests for heads on sticks. I've been play testing A LOT over the last couple of weeks and had some of the most intense and fun experiences playing KF2 in those final playtests once the system really started to take shape and I'm not keen on firing anyone the company because they had fun during a play test. http://store.steampowered.com/app/232090/ quote:We see Early Access as an opportunity to involve you, the community, and actually incorporate your feedback as we balance and put the finishing touches on the game. For example, we know how to nail the feel of Killing Floor 2’s weapons, but perfect gameplay balance can only come from large scale play testing. looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
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Jun 10, 2016 04:21
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Questioner86... They got you too, didn't they?
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Jun 10, 2016 04:24
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Questioner86 posted:We'll have to keep gathering feedback and see. If the community decides they want head popping simulator then I'm sure they'll make that desire known. what do you think the last several dozen posts have been? e: like yes, this sounds pretty hostile. I'll admit that up front. But how many times do you believe the playerbase needs to hear 'it tested well internally' as an opening argument to balance changes we hate? especially since this is a beta! What's the point of a beta if not to gather feedback? And yet you open the post with "actually, it's good" which is, effectively, telling us we're all wrong? What in the gently caress? like I get it, you worked hard on this and are frustrated that the response is an avalanche of anger. I get that. It's hard not to be defensive in that situation, I get it. But just for a second, consider it from our perspective: how many times do you think the playerbase will take "it playtested well internally" as an answer? For a beta, where supposedly our perspective is relevant? LM's post is that of a frustrated player who wants to like this game and hates how, patch after patch, it's always one step forward and one step back. Honest mode to on: You and I both know that's happened for the last 14 loving months. Please, give us a little credit. We want this game to be good probably more than you do. Psion fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 04:29
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That sounds like a lot of justification for a system no one asked for or apparently seems to want. I know Tripwire is horrible as poo poo when it comes to communicating stuff like this, but maybe you guys could have actually put feelers out if the community wanted a change in this direction before actually doing it? I mean, I get why you didn't, because everyone would have said no. The game has strategy enough to it without the devs blatantly making it artificially more difficult to play with these seriously ill thought out "resistances". If you wanted your zeds to have kevlar skin, maybe just make a new one that's covered in body armor instead of arbitrarily deciding "We're going to make the game as unfun as possible by making two guns worth taking". I love how the response to Medic+Beserker is to ruin everything.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:31
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Hint: that's what is happening right now. Oh, poo poo. I guess I had better put on my boots, drive to work and start my 72 hour-learning-to-code-and-then-coding-game-changes marathon. Or instead we can let the changes soak for longer than 12 hours and see what shakes out. Seriously, pal. I tell you that I'm sorry you don't like the changes, tell you what the intent behind the changes are and assure you that if the community doesn't like the changes we'll figure something out. You don't need to break off a bunch of attitude to me in order to make your point, I promise you. 
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Jun 10, 2016 04:32
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Skoll posted:I love how the response to Medic+Beserker is to ruin everything. Just bring the Microwave Gun. It's basically good against everything that is particularly dangerous. Questioner86 posted:Seriously, pal. I tell you that I'm sorry you don't like the changes, tell you what the intent behind the changes are and assure you that if the community doesn't like the changes we'll figure something out. You don't need to break off a bunch of attitude to me in order to make your point, I promise you. Don't make condescending posts that effectively dismiss the plethora of concerns that have been aired. Given the quality of development thus far, you'll have to forgive me for finding it hard to take serious the idea that Tripwire will "figure something out," since that's always taken 6+ months in the past for a fix that is almost always mediocre at best. E: Resistances were already in the game, and people already played around them. Microwave for Scrakes, Explosives for Pounds, etc. That sort of thing could have been lightly tuned. Instead, most enemies now resist most damage types, in exchange for being vulnerable to one damage type. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 04:40
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There was already some strategy to team composition; you didn't need to add stupid and unintuitive Pokemon bullshit to Zeds to make people pick a "diverse" layout. Here's an example; two or more Commandos didn't really help the team compared to one commando, but it wasn't a death sentence if you had two like it is now. You could still have a Microwave Gun Firebug and Flamethrower Firebug working side by side without idiotic resistances forcing them to pick to fully go into one or the other. Hell, I've done it often when I picked Firebug when there was already one on the server in Suicidal. What if I want to level up my Gunslinger in a Suicidal sever but there was already one on there when I joined? Pre-update, I would still roll GS and kick rear end (maybe pop Scrakes if the other GS and the rest of the team wasn't doing it, for example), but now I have to switch to another class because having more than one of a class is an active hindrance to the team. Hell, what if I just wanted to make it rain Scrake head gibs in a Suicidal server with a GS already there? Nope, don't even think about it. Not to mention the resistances themselves are brain-dead and make no sense. A butt-naked 5 foot tall woman can shrug off a shotgun blast at point blank range, a fat man can absorb headshots from .500 S&W magnum rounds like he was getting hit with a BB gun, a naked man can survive a brick of C4 blowing up near him like it was nothing, and an extremely malnourished woman can tank nearly everything like she was decked out in a mini-suit of chobham armor. I don't expect full realism at all, but at least make it make some sort of sense. An enemy being a bullet sponge except to one or two damage types is ok with the Fleshpound (because he's supposed to be a mini-boss), but not every goddamn enemy in the game. And people like the head-popping, no matter the difficulty. It's part of the core of the game and one of the main draws, and removing it for a half-baked attempt at adding strategy makes it seem like you completely missed the point of the game in favor of Pokemon bullshit to please the tryhards and theorycrafters on the official forums. I wouldn't play KF2 for nearly a long time if I had to struggle to kill a basic Zed in any difficulty because of stupid resistances. In fact, I'd drop it pretty drat fast and go to another game. If you want people to mix up which perks they choose, change the perks, not the enemies, because that just makes things frustrating for everyone playing. Give them more options, like what you're trying to do, and things will flow from there. closeted republican fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 04:41
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I absolutely despise this update so far but I do like how the new character looks like that Melody Hensley lady if you put the black wig on her.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:49
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Theta Zero posted:I absolutely despise this update so far but I do like how the new character looks like that Melody Hensley lady if you put the black wig on her. I would like the new character more if her face didn't look like it was made out of plastic.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:51
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Questioner86 posted:Oh, poo poo. I guess I had better put on my boots, drive to work and start my 72 hour-learning-to-code-and-then-coding-game-changes marathon. Or instead we can let the changes soak for longer than 12 hours and see what shakes out. realchat dude, opening a post with "it playtested well internally" was possibly the worst option; we're mad and you're mad. I'd be glad to discuss this out of the thread if you want, but ...this is not a good change so far and you're not giving me anything to work with on wanting to go back and play more of something I find actively unfun right now in the potential hopes I might be able to overcome the dread ~internal playtest~. e: why do I keep repeating sentences in these posts? ugh Psion fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 04:55
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Psion posted:realchat dude, opening a post with "it playtested well internally" was possibly the worst option; we're mad and you're mad. I'd be glad to discuss this out of the thread if you want, but ...this is not a good change so far and you're not giving me anything to work with on wanting to go back and play more of something I find actively unfun right now in the potential hopes I might be able to overcome the dread ~internal playtest~. Honestly, the resistance system is so bad I don't plan on playing until it's reverted or nerfed into near uselessness. It is that bad.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:56
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Theta Zero posted:I absolutely despise this update so far but I do like how the new character looks like that Melody Hensley lady if you put the black wig on her. Rae's pretty cool, for sure
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Jun 10, 2016 04:59
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Psion posted:realchat dude, opening a post with "it playtested well internally" was possibly the worst option; we're mad and you're mad. I'd be glad to discuss this out of the thread if you want, but ...this is not a good change so far and you're not giving me anything to work with on wanting to go back and play more of something I find actively unfun right now in the potential hopes I might be able to overcome the dread ~internal playtest~. ^ Pretty much this. Not to sound too much like a crybaby bitch but KF 1 so far is more fun than where KF 2 is right now, and these changes you're gonna be putting it is gonna further nudge it backwards. I already have people on my friends who have reinstalled KF 1 to play that instead. I get you guys wanna evolve the game and you want to make the classes distinctive, but making to where you are forcing the players to only bring this or that isn't fun. All this change is going to do is make the few hundred people that still play it switch to the microwave gun instead of whatever it is they might have preferred before.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:03
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I want to know in what world where the list of resistances shown here: is acceptable. The stats (not how they're presented; the stats period) make the Siren look like an enemy for an overcomplicated WRPG made in the late 90s based on an equally clunky PnP system, not an FPS made in 2015. How could anyone look at that and think "Yeah, that makes sense and is easy to understand!", not "What the gently caress is this poo poo?".
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Jun 10, 2016 05:05
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Questioner86 posted:You don't need to break off a bunch of attitude to me in order to make your point, I promise you. You reap what you sow. No, seriously, you're being kind of a huge rear end in a top hat right now. I've actually enjoyed conversing with you previously in the thread but your posts about this latest update reek of your taint-scent. Congratulations on having fun while the game becomes more and more of a chore, I guess, but for the rest of us who don't get paid to play KF2 it's pretty fuckin' dumb when you roll out a patch that nerfs every class across the board and then targets Berserker (because god forbid one of the few useful perks get to stay useful), Commando (which already sucked???), and Demo (lol splash damage, get that outta here) specifically for further nerfs. But, hey, I'm sure once we give it 24, 48, 72, however many hours the internet will stop being mad about it. Don't worry about making the game worse, the tiny playerbase you have left will adapt.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:06
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It's pretty telling the first response that is clearly not what TWI expected is "oh well, you guys are just mad now give it some time and we'll see" as opposed to "wow, maybe we did something wrong here, we should ask questions and figure out what specifically is wrong?" so for everyone here: if this patch had just added Sharp, Rae, the maps, and fixed Hans, and not the resists: would it be like 10/10 best loving patch? i vote yes
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Jun 10, 2016 05:13
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Psion posted:It's pretty telling the first response that is clearly not what TWI expected is "oh well, you guys are just mad now give it some time and we'll see" as opposed to "wow, maybe we did something wrong here, we should ask questions and figure out what specifically is wrong?" I think they went overboard with the Zerk nerfs and the Commando rebuild made him weaker, but it would've been a good patch without resistance. The Sharp, Hans rework, and GUI improvements are great.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:16
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I think someone earlier pitched a good idea re: new monsters. If TWI wants to introduce elements that require a little more teamwork, why not design new enemies and give them these stats? This way the expectations / gameplay on the existing enemies doesn't change, while adding the additional degrees of difficulty with new monsters that have these resistances or abilities. Just a thought.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:31
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No one can seem to break the Hans bubble before he drains, but are now encouraged to shoot him anyway. Practical effect: Hans soaks even more damage (and more importantly, more ammo). Then he has more overall health to "compensate." Commando handgun with the +60% perk at level 20+ appears to take about 5 headshots to kill a Gorefast on Suicidal. Headshotting a siren at t2 seriously takes 6-10 headshots (you know, the class that is supposed to be good at this according to that chart). Literally no reason to use Sharpshooter weapons as a sharpshooter until level 5. Like the demo, can be spoofed as a support with the Strength perk more effectively than base class. Dev comes to thread to say that feedback was that perks were too one-sided, so they fixed that... By releasing the most comically one-sided perk sets yet. But I think I know what was being gotten at. The previous meta was that basically nothing in this game mattered except effectiveness at killing scrakes and fleshpounds. Now every class has stopping power issues at all points in the game. Yay!
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Jun 10, 2016 05:40
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Hey, you know what? Questioner, if you haven't ignored me yet, instead of radically changing how Zeds absorb damage to fix a problem that wasn't there, maybe radically change the loving perk/skill whatever the gently caress it's called choice system instead so people don't end up with the same goddamn choices because it's really obvious which one is better than the other. Throw the "every five levels, pick one of two choices" system out the window. Get it outta here. Keep the skill choices, but don't lock them to a certain level. Every five levels into a perk, allow the player to select one of the eight perk skill whatevers. At level 20, the player gets to have half of them. It's basically the same as it is now, except less poo poo and any choice that's an obvious "this perk needs this skill to not be absolute poo poo" is 1) accessible extremely early on (instead of, say, needing to be level 15 in Demo before Sirens don't completely ruin your offense) 2) not a huge deal because one skill choice of the possible four means there's three more skill choices for interesting variety. A Support with Supplier *and* increased ammo capacity! Oh gently caress that sounds overpowered!!! oh wait no then he's used half his skills on poo poo that's currently available at level 5 and can only pick two of the remaining six skills. I feel like this would also improve perks overall since skills would be balanced against all the other skills the perk has, instead of just the other binary choice. Then again, Tripwire can't seem to make even binary choices interesting, so gently caress it. Ughhhhhh. You know why we're so mad about this poo poo, Questioner? Because there's a good loving game in here somewhere. There is a very loving good game waiting to be released within Killing Floor 2, but Tripwire seems very intent on making sure there's a huge, glaring issue with the game at all times that pushes the playerbase away. I just want to play the great loving game Killing Floor 2 should be, instead of the scrotal trauma it insists on being.
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Jun 10, 2016 06:00
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I mean, surely some people at Tripwire played Killing Floor, right? Popping heads is really fun in that game... I feel like it should be fun in this game, too.
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Jun 10, 2016 06:01
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The resistance system isn't just needlessly complex and nonsensical (12 different damage types--apparently there's a difference between "assault rifles" and "rifles"), it's got a number of random exceptions. For example, handguns do 0.3X damage to Bloats, except for 9mm, which do 0.6. For all other enemies, the 9mm appears to use the same multipliers as handguns. The AR15 also gets a special multiplier for Bloats.
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Jun 10, 2016 06:33
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Questioner86 posted:Sorry to hear you guys don't like the revised resist system, but I'm going to go ahead and deny any requests for heads on sticks. I've been play testing A LOT over the last couple of weeks and had some of the most intense and fun experiences playing KF2 in those final playtests once the system really started to take shape and I'm not keen on firing anyone the company because they had fun during a play test. You make other classes better at dealing with certain threats by making them kick rear end against those threats. Not by loving over other classes, while making the "intended" class merely deal Normal/Bordering on normal damage anyways. Oh wow, a Microwave gun deals Proper damage against a Siren? Wowie loving zowie, better buy a heavy and expensive Tier 4 weapon just to deal with a common midtier enemy. Sure let's make 90% of the guns loving garbage against sirens and make shotguns moderately effective but still waste half their pellets bouncing off their metal harness if your penetration isn't up to snuff. This isn't a goddamned MOBA where "Counter pick team comp" should even be a thing. People will Still be picking "Medic+Zerker" even if they get their damage slammed into the pavement because that's what's often needed for people to even survive, all you will do is make things more lovely for everyone, and it will make MORE people flock to Medic+Zerker because they will need more healing to stay alive, and zerkers won't rely on ammo as much while you make using the "wrong" gun take way more ammo to kill even basic trash. "Well I brought an assault rifle, but apparently those are loving trash against almost everything." "I brought a flamethrower, apparently those are loving trash against almost everything too." "Why are we paying for ammo again? gently caress it, Zweihanders and medic guns for everybody." You'll probably get a ton of people calling this the most amazing realistic immersion ever though, because there are always people who only think the most obtuse ball busting hurdles = "I'm a pro hardcore gamer!" EDIT: Mad at videogames. This is really disheartening and you wanting to double down on this is probably going to be a nail in the coffin for me ever wanting to pick this back up properly and get good enough to handle suicidal. Because loving hell I'm getting tired of devs adding obtuse layers of extra difficulty in what should be a relatively straightforward game and acting like it's the most pro of metas. OneThousandMonkeys posted:Commando handgun with the +60% perk at level 20+ appears to take about 5 headshots to kill a Gorefast on Suicidal. Holy loving poo poo I am just going to uninstall like a huge baby if that makes it live. Trash always being trash was kind of important. I had some incentive to try harder difficulties because I could always count on being able to clear out trash even with middling aim. Now why even bother unless I'm loving robocop, to kill a GOREFAST, because I picked the "wrong class" even though I took the talent meant to make popping trash with the 9mm fun and practical. I'd imagine that also means no more decapitating stalkers and gorefasts with single knife M1 swipes when using... whatever the backup talent is replaced with in backwards land. Section Z fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 06:34
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Please, please, please, Tripwire. Don't take people saying "I really like Sharpshooter just because it's the only thing that kills enemies like it used to" as a go-ahead to nerf Sharpshooter.
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Jun 10, 2016 06:39
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:No one can seem to break the Hans bubble before he drains, but are now encouraged to shoot him anyway. Practical effect: Hans soaks even more damage (and more importantly, more ammo). Then he has more overall health to "compensate." I've had pretty great success against Hans on Normal and Hard just running up to him as soon as he grabs someone and shooting him with an RPG or railgun. Last handful of games we've killed him without a single heal. And by handful I mean we played like 10ish games and got Hans 9 of those times because gently caress my luck I guess. I like the new Hans! There aren't even servers with good ping on suicidal/HOE to test that stuff.
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Jun 10, 2016 06:59
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I think watching tripwire damage control their patches is more fun than the game itself at this point. Thanks for the continued entertainment, questioner.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:11
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Section Z posted:EDIT: Mad at videogames. This is really disheartening and you wanting to double down on this is probably going to be a nail in the coffin for me ever wanting to pick this back up properly and get good enough to handle suicidal. Because loving hell I'm getting tired of devs adding obtuse layers of extra difficulty in what should be a relatively straightforward game and acting like it's the most pro of metas. Honestly, I'm upset because the entire thing is completely unnecessary and ruins a good game for the sake of terribly implemented teamwork, skill, and tension. Turning all of your weapons into pea-shooters is one of the worst ways to make things harder and encourage teamwork because all it does is make it frustrating to play and gently caress you over if you don't have the specific weapon for a specific enemy, like you're playing a bad game of Pokemon or some poo poo. Plus, Questioner's response shows that the team seems to have completely missed the point of KF2 in favor of an awful "hardcore" system that makes the game far, far more complicated than it should be, presumably to please the tryhards and theorycrafters on the official forums and Reddit.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:21
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Questioner, can you explain this basic design change please, I've got 200 odd hours in KF1 and 100 in 2 and I very rarely see an entire team clumped together to hold a single choke point. We usually take different areas in smaller groups and maybe move around for the bigger zeds. Adding these resistances means we need every team member in one place, surely? Do you want us to go back to the old days of KF1, everyone hiding behind a single desk, firing through a single doorway for the entire match?
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Jun 10, 2016 07:28
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lol top 4 thingies on Reddit are people saying the resistance update is bad
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Jun 10, 2016 07:28
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All this is going to get ignored because gently caress you, we already devoted the dev time to it anyway.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:29
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I need a loving protractor to figure out how to shoot people now. What the gently caress
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Jun 10, 2016 07:29
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:I need a loving protractor to figure out how to shoot people now. What the gently caress Don't worry friend, just read this spreadsheet and you can figure out how to kill a Crawler or Stalker with ease. 
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Jun 10, 2016 07:31
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can I EV train my gun's
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Jun 10, 2016 07:32
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closeted republican posted:Don't worry friend, just read this spreadsheet and you can figure out how to kill a Crawler or Stalker with ease. Gonna have to configure the aimbot to only target Stalkers when Im playing as a Firebug now.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:33
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:can I EV train my gun's Great idea! I'll send that over to Tripwire. I'm sure grinding Clots with your SCAR for hours to gain a minor damage or reload speed boost will make people want to play more.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:35
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closeted republican posted:Honestly, I'm upset because the entire thing is completely unnecessary and ruins a good game for the sake of terribly implemented teamwork, skill, and tension. Turning all of your weapons into pea-shooters is one of the worst ways to make things harder and encourage teamwork because all it does is make it frustrating to play and gently caress you over if you don't have the specific weapon for a specific enemy, like you're playing a bad game of Pokemon or some poo poo. Plus, Questioner's response shows that the team seems to have completely missed the point of KF2 in favor of an awful "hardcore" system that makes the game far, far more complicated than it should be, presumably to please the tryhards and theorycrafters on the official forums and Reddit. "Backup" turning the 9mm and Knife into trash clearing superstars was the most fun thing in the world to me while everyone else was taking the more overall practical talents instead. It also let me help save my perk weapon ammo from my mediocre accuracy that much more so I could wildly magdump and only land half a bullpup mag into a husks head but still come out okay overall. But mostly, I loved always being able to pop Gorefasts and other trash. (See also: Why I personally loathe the Medic SMG because even the old "Two headshots to kill a clot" standard bugged me) When even the TRASH enemies are being designed to meet some neublous "Pro tier MLG meta team comp for Korean Starcraft championship" desire... Ugh. I don't mind Suicidal/HoE being hard, or trying to keep the game at it's most basic level challenging. But obtuse layers of wiki fodder and rendering even the most basic of enemies stonewalls is just no good for what is supposed to be a bunch of pals running around murdering Zeds and throwing dosh everywhere and not needing to turn to a wiki every five minutes like you did with Killing Floor 1's price modeling, for example. Just saying "Well stick to normal difficulty then, if you don't like the new meta that us, the Developers, think is fun  " is just horrible and makes me wonder who kidnapped Questioner and started posting with his account.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 07:35
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Update 1.124 changelog: - Demos can now mega evolve - HM moves can be deleted - Sonic and Shrek will no longer kiss
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Jun 10, 2016 07:41
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- All classes have been merged into a single Survivor class - All weapons do 90% reduced damage except for Microwave Gun - Microwave Gun price increased to 4000 dosh - All characters reset to Rust characters with characteristics based on SteamID
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Jun 10, 2016 07:44
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| # ? May 12, 2024 03:00 |
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Section Z posted:"Backup" turning the 9mm and Knife into trash clearing superstars was the most fun thing in the world to me while everyone else was taking the more overall practical talents instead. It let me help save my perk weapon ammo from my mediocre accuracy that much more so I could wildly magdump and only land half a bullpup mag into a husks head but still come out okay overall. If you think Backup has it bad, try being a Gunslinger. The dual 9mms went from being a great weapon in the hands of a leveled Gunslinger to a useless piece of poo poo because of this update. I'm still pissed about that because the dual 9mms were so useful before as a GS. I don't mind combos for big enemies (I loved gibbing Fleshpounds with the M32+grenade combo in KF1), but having to use some MLG l33t team build to easily clear out anything that isn't a Clot is loving stupid and misses the point of why people liked KF in the first place; because it's easy to pick up and shoot poo poo, especially at low difficulties. Even at higher difficulties, you still had a good amount of versatility with classes and builds. The KF series have always been somewhat too reliant on reading wiki fodder to do well in higher difficulties, but the new update makes it utterly ridiculous because you basically have to do it for every difficulty now. Super-cool combos to kill FPs in a second? Sure, I don't mind browsing a wiki to learn that because it's technically a secret, but having to glue myself to TWI's official wiki just to learn how to kill the invisible naked woman and the literal spider man that technically have the lowest HP in the game while playing in Hard difficulty is dumb dumb dumb.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:45
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