Auspol June/Election - hang parliament - The Something Awful Forums

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Starshark: Dec 22, 2005; Doctor Rope

open24hours posted:

Is your imagination so limited that locking people up in prison the only way you can think of to deter crime?

Noooo, and I don't know how you got that from what I said to you... Oh, you're pissed off because I called you an idiot. Well, okay.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:30

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 17:53

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

chyaroh posted:

Put it this way. Two people commit the same crime. One is rich, one is not. The offence has an option of either jail or paying a large fine and wandering off scott free afterwards. Can you say justice is served if the poor person goes to jail and the rich one pays a fine and goes back to their life?

The way this is being framed is that the perpetrator gets to choose their sentence. That's not how justice, supposedly blind and equal, is meant to work.

This isn't about buying your way out of prison, and there's no world in which I'd argue that rich and poor offenders should receive different sentences based on their ability to pay.

Sending people to prison doesn't make the world a better place, it doesn't improve the lives of victim or the perpetrator, it's very expensive and it causes all sorts of social problems. It's something that should be avoided if at all possible, and for people who don't pose a risk to public safety there is absolutely no value in locking them up other than sating the blood-lust of the more sadistic parts of society.

Starshark posted:

Noooo, and I don't know how you got that from what I said to you... Oh, you're pissed off because I called you an idiot. Well, okay.

If there are viable alternatives, and you are aware of them, then why would you ask how else we could deter people from committing crimes?

open24hours fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jun 10, 2016

# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:33

chyaroh: Aug 8, 2007

open24hours posted:

This isn't about buying your way out of prison, and there's no world in which I'd argue that rich and poor offenders should receive different sentences based on their ability to pay.

Sending people to prison doesn't make the world a better place, it doesn't improve the lives of victim or the perpetrator, it's very expensive and it causes all sorts of social problems. It's something that should be avoided if at all possible, and for people who don't pose a risk to public safety there is absolutely no value in locking them up other than sating the blood-lust of the more sadistic parts of society.

If there are viable alternatives, and you are aware of them, then why would you ask how else we could deter people from committing crimes?

The "different sentences based on their ability to pay" seems to be exactly what that article was arguing for. That's the bit that's objectionable.

On the other hand, I agree that there have to be better options for the judges than just "lock 'em up and throw away the key" for crimes that are non-violent, and for people that need genuine help rather than being stuck in a cell. In a perfect world jail would be both a deterrent/punishment, AND a place where prisoners could be rehabilitated. Unfortunately we are stuck with the system as it is at the moment with a lack of will on all parties to change it up.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:40

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Prison should always be a last resort. Violence involved or not. The only purpose it serves is to separate someone from society. This is part of what makes mandatory sentencing of any kind ridiculous and self defeating. If financial poo poo smear McMoneybags is likely to continue clubbing or cheating grannies for spare change then he needs to be separated from society regardless of whether they can pay back what they stole. It is already the case that the wealthy have a better deal with the courts (seeing as how they can afford to actually use them). gently caress giving them more privileges.

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/behead.html

:ssh:

beheading was pretty popular until quite recently in Europe.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:47

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

V for Vegas posted:

Prison does deter many, many people from committing crimes. All because it is not a perfect deterrent doesn't invalidate it.

A strong argument always leads with a "no, you" statement.

Eh look it's more to do with how humans behave. In a perfect/crazy world, if you did something wrong, you'd be punished/whatever right then and there, because then you would ~associate~ that action with the punishment. The threat of that punishment would therefore be a deterrent. I would argue that it's probably something like injunctive norms which deter people from just committing a shitload of crime. People have an expectation on how they shoud behave, as well as how others should behave. The injunctive norms are free to vary across society, and explains why people still perform actions which are considered illegal (because the individual feels like they can behave in that manner).

I'd argue that due to the lengthy delay between action -> gaol, going to gaol is actually a ~consequence~ of your action. Punishment, by definition, is supposed to reduce the frequency of some behaviour and really gaol isn't an effective punishment/deterrent. I'm personally fine with gaol being a consequence for the action, but I think any punishment in this system right now is the immediate loss of freedoms/restrictions placed on the individual immediately after they are taken into custody. In many cases, this can be after "getting caught", so really this person may just aim to not get caught in the future.

This is also why rehabilitation/education/support in prison is a cool and good thing because we want to break this cycle of disenfranchisement. That's why it's poo poo when we cut support programs inside prisons because we are being "too soft on crime".

# ? Jun 10, 2016 01:47

ewe2: Jul 1, 2009

Recoome posted:

This is also why rehabilitation/education/support in prison is a cool and good thing because we want to break this cycle of disenfranchisement. That's why it's poo poo when we cut support programs inside prisons because we are being "too soft on crime".

It's also to do with the crazy societal ethics we seem to have where the further up the rich/white scale you are, the less responsible you have to be, hence the victim-blaming of the LNP on poor/not-so-white. If rich = automatically good, then there's already a bias. And you can't be "tough on crime" as a politician and punish members of your own social class, can you.

On the other hand, witness the difficulty NT "justice" has had with integrating some tribal law into the system so that young offenders can be policed by their tribe rather than the throw-away-the-key system. But this offends racist whites, so they fight back. Recently they built a lovely new jail in the middle of nowhere, so far away that it makes it difficult for family visits. And the government refused to make transport available. NT does tend to be rather obvious in these ways, but it's the same but more subtle in the rest of the country.

Options? Don't make me laugh, there's been plenty of options for decades.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:01

You Am I: May 20, 2001; Me @ your poasting

Oh cool Labor is supporting the Coalition with cuts to family payments :smith:

# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:07

DeathMuffin: May 25, 2004; Cake or Death

open24hours posted:

Sending people to prison doesn't make the world a better place, it doesn't improve the lives of victim or the perpetrator, it's very expensive and it causes all sorts of social problems. It's something that should be avoided if at all possible, and for people who don't pose a risk to public safety there is absolutely no value in locking them up other than sating the blood-lust of the more sadistic parts of society.

All but the last clause of this is 100% spot on, but I do remember the reality of hearing CFOs and directors saying "you can't do this, I'll go to jail". And I wish I could think of something that inspired anywhere near as much fear. Regardless of your wealth you only have maybe 2.5 billion seconds on this planet, and it's a great equalizer

# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:16

NPR Journalizard: Feb 14, 2008

You Am I posted:

Oh cool Labor is supporting the Coalition with cuts to family payments

They are making the hard decisions. Like they always do, to take away from those most in need.

They wont make the hard decisions like close corporate tax loopholes. gently caress the ALP with a bus.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:33

V for Vegas: Sep 1, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Recoome posted:

A strong argument always leads with a "no, you" statement.

Eh look it's more to do with how humans behave. In a perfect/crazy world, if you did something wrong, you'd be punished/whatever right then and there, because then you would ~associate~ that action with the punishment. The threat of that punishment would therefore be a deterrent. I would argue that it's probably something like injunctive norms which deter people from just committing a shitload of crime. People have an expectation on how they shoud behave, as well as how others should behave. The injunctive norms are free to vary across society, and explains why people still perform actions which are considered illegal (because the individual feels like they can behave in that manner).

I'd argue that due to the lengthy delay between action -> gaol, going to gaol is actually a ~consequence~ of your action. Punishment, by definition, is supposed to reduce the frequency of some behaviour and really gaol isn't an effective punishment/deterrent. I'm personally fine with gaol being a consequence for the action, but I think any punishment in this system right now is the immediate loss of freedoms/restrictions placed on the individual immediately after they are taken into custody. In many cases, this can be after "getting caught", so really this person may just aim to not get caught in the future.

This is also why rehabilitation/education/support in prison is a cool and good thing because we want to break this cycle of disenfranchisement. That's why it's poo poo when we cut support programs inside prisons because we are being "too soft on crime".

I think this is the 3rd or 4th time the deterrence/rehabilitation argument has washed through the auspol thread.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:38

Anidav: Feb 25, 2010; ahhh fuck its the rats again

Twinkle twinkle little star
Shorten copies some policies and goes too far

# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:40

Halo14: Sep 11, 2001

You Am I posted:

Oh cool Labor is supporting the Coalition with cuts to family payments

Yeah it's on the front page of the Telegraph as "REVEALED: SHORTEN SLASHES FAMILY WELFARE"

# ? Jun 10, 2016 02:59

Solemn Sloth: Jul 11, 2015; Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.

the correct deterrence for white collar crime is a bullet

# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:14

hooman: Oct 11, 2007; This guy seems legit.; Fun Shoe

Solemn Sloth posted:

the correct deterrence for white collar crime is a bullet

That's not very environmentally friendly, we want sustainable multiple use killing machines.

It rhymes with Kill-o-tine.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:29

Laserface: Dec 24, 2004

My office is engaged in a political debate about dole bludgers and the HR manager is actually advocating work for the dole because 'they can just pick up garbage or something'

yeah ok so we will just pay every dole bludger 60k a year which is roughly what a full time garbo gets then?

oh no no no guys you dont pay them the same amount as someone who WANTS to do the work you pay them the same as they currently get on the dole

soooo you will pay them less than minimum wage to do the same job as someone else with the only difference being one person was offered the job and someone else wasnt?

yes

:suicide:

This was after i pointed out that the vast majority of welfare goes to old people and not dole bludgers, with proof from this thread.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:32

wombat74: Sep 30, 2005; Corporate Fat Cat

Big story out of Victoria that could have federal ramifications - Jane Garrett has resigned as Emergency Services minister over the CFA/UFU stoush. The Herald Scum is going to have a field day over this

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/emergency-services-minister-jane-garrett-has-resigned-20160610-gpg0on.html

The Age posted:

Daniel Andrews' Emergency Services Minister Jane Garrett has quit the cabinet over the proposed deal with the militant firefighters union.

At an emergency cabinet meeting on Friday morning the Premier accepted her resignation.

"Despite all concerns previously raised by Ms Garrett being addressed, she has indicated she refuses to support cabinet proposals to end the long-running dispute over the CFA enterprise agreement," Mr Andrews said in a short statement.

There is an expectation that the CFA board will also be sacked as the Premier moves to ram through his agreement with the firefighters union.

The CFA leadership team released the legal advice on its website on Friday afternoon and issued a short statement.

Jane Garrett has been vehemently opposed to the government's proposed deal with the firefighters union.

"The advice has reaffirmed there are parts of the agreement that remain unlawful," the statement said.

"The Board is actively considering this final advice as would be expected given their responsible accountabilities as a board. While we respect the Government's position, we must consider this advice and the impact it has on a proposed agreement."

"It is a disgraceful morning," Andrew Ford, chief executive of the Association of Volunteer Fire Brigades told 3AW.

"And very very sad. I can't believe we are watching this happen"

WIth Ms Garrett and former small business minister Adem Somyurek, who resigned in 2015, Mr Andrews has now lost two ministers in less than two years in office.

Ms Garrett, who has been vehemently opposed to the government's proposed deal with the firefighters' union, is unlikely to quit the parliament.

"It has been an extraordinary privilege to serve in my ministerial role which I leave with a heavy heart,' she tweeted.

"And I look forward to continuing to serve the community as the Member for Brunswick."

Opposition Leader Matthew Guy said Ms Garrett's resignation proved that Mr Andrews was a "vengeful bully who is leading a dysfunctional, chaotic government".

"His forced resignation of a female minister for daring to question his attack on the CFA and its 60,000 volunteers emphasises that he puts his own political safety ahead of the safety of Victorians," Mr Guy said.

"Despite warnings from a number of experts, including those appointed by the Andrews Labor Government, about the legality of the EBA, Daniel Andrews has rammed this through for his own political purposes."

Ms Garrett, 43, who is also Labor National Vice-President, had been seen as a rising star in Labor ranks.

A good media performer, many thought she was a party asset, so much so that moves had been considered to find her a safe seat for the 2018 election to avoid a painful fight with the Greens in her inner city seat.

Ms Garrett had shared the CFA and volunteers' concern that the deal, as it stands, would undermine the role of volunteers and management to do their job.

For months the Premier had backed the minister in her fight against the union's "outrageous" claims.

But then he met with United Firefighters Union boss Peter Marshall and ever since he has been pushing through a deal.

There has been praise for the former Minister for standing up "and taking a stand against a policy she thinks is bad".

There is also growing anger that the Premier's statement � where he said Ms Garrett would not side with cabinet � sends a bad message to anyone with policy concerns in the party.

Ms Garrett came close to quitting on Monday over her continued defiance over the agreement, but a deal was struck to allow further work on the agreement in a bid to fix the contentious issues.

But on Thursday it became apparent that little had been done to solve the issues and on Friday morning she quit.

Deputy Premier James Merlino is set to act as minister in Ms Garrett's portfolios, which also include Consumer Affairs, Gaming and Liquor Regulation.

Ms Garrett's detractors have blamed her for a series of cabinet leaks in recent days and have slammed her for failing to resolve the 1160-day-old pay dispute.

Others have applauded her for sticking to her guns and fighting for good policy.

The question on many minds remains why the Premier has pursued a policy that both the Minister and the CFA board have said is unlawful and detrimental to volunteers.

The firefighters' dispute has plunged the Andrews government into chaos in recent weeks, and left many figures in government scratching their heads at how a well performing government became so derailed.

Mr Andrews is due to address the media around lunchtime, with Mr Merlino likely to be sworn in as Emergency Services Minister.

Agreement signed off by cabinet
Following Ms Garrett's resignation the cabinet formally accepted the Fair Work Commission recommendations but added "safeguards for volunteer firefighters" into the agreement.

The government says the concerns raised by the CFA regarding the enforceability of the agreement have been resolved � something the former minister clearly disputed.

Mr Andrews said a statement of joint intent between the CFA and the UFU would be created to ensure the agreement would not override the National Employment Standards around requesting flexible working arrangements .

One of the most contentious issues has been the requirement for seven professional firefighters to be dispatched to a fire incident.

"A statement of joint intent between the CFA and the UFU will commit the parties to working together on the rollout of 350 new firefighters and the implementation of the seven on the fire ground dispatch model," the statement says.

And on controversial consultation and dispute resolution procedures the government will seek a commitment from the parties that "agreement will not be unreasonably withheld".

"Volunteer and career firefighters have told us they're sick of being used as a political football � they want this fixed because they want the focus back on fighting fires and keeping their communities safe," Mr Andrews said.

"I'm not having this drag on for another 1000 days � because that's not safe, and that's not fair."

More to come

# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:36

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

V for Vegas posted:

I think this is the 3rd or 4th time the deterrence/rehabilitation argument has washed through the auspol thread.

Thanks for your insightful and meaning contribution

# ? Jun 10, 2016 03:55

WhiskeyWhiskers: Oct 14, 2013; "هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

hooman posted:

That's not very environmentally friendly, we want sustainable multiple use killing machines.

It rhymes with Kill-o-tine.

Not if you pronounce it correctly it doesn't. :colbert:

# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:03

SMILLENNIALSMILLEN: Jun 26, 2009

Its rhymes with creatine

# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:08

hooman: Oct 11, 2007; This guy seems legit.; Fun Shoe

This was assumed yesterday but here's the confirmation.

"Police confirmed Sourian did not stab anyone and the three bystanders, who include an 82-year-old woman and 65-year-old woman, are in a stable condition in hospital."

Man with knife runs at cops, cops open fire and shoot knife man and 3 bystanders.

EDIT: Apparently it wasn't even a knife, it was a pair of scissors.

hooman fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jun 10, 2016

# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:15

SMILLENNIALSMILLEN: Jun 26, 2009

Labor removing natural alternative health scams from private insurance rebate lmao nice

# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:17

ewe2: Jul 1, 2009

wombat74 posted:

Big story out of Victoria that could have federal ramifications - Jane Garrett has resigned as Emergency Services minister over the CFA/UFU stoush. The Herald Scum is going to have a field day over this

Bad luck, we're heading into a weekend, and it could bugger up plans for the new week's narratives. And since it's a State issue it'll fizzle nationally. Dan might have made a strategic error though, this gives Garrett ammo for the future. Expect the issue to blow up during the summer.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:17

SMILLENNIALSMILLEN: Jun 26, 2009

Still banging on about budget repair tho

# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:19

You Am I: May 20, 2001; Me @ your poasting

wombat74 posted:

Big story out of Victoria that could have federal ramifications - Jane Garrett has resigned as Emergency Services minister over the CFA/UFU stoush. The Herald Scum is going to have a field day over this

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/emergency-services-minister-jane-garrett-has-resigned-20160610-gpg0on.html

I doubt if anyone outside of News Corpse will care about this story.

Probably the first big hit to the Andrews Government though

# ? Jun 10, 2016 04:29

wombat74: Sep 30, 2005; Corporate Fat Cat

You Am I posted:

I doubt if anyone outside of News Corpse will care about this story.

Probably the first big hit to the Andrews Government though

Given Turnbull showed up at the CFA rally last weekend and the Lib talking points were how the ALP didn't send anyone, they'll definitely try and turn it into an issue. At the very least to try and shift attention away from Parakeelia

# ? Jun 10, 2016 05:12

Other: Jul 10, 2007; Post it easy!

Well that sure escalated
UPDATE: The government has given the Country Fire Authority board until 5pm to accept the controversial deal with the firefighters' union � or face dismissal.

The ultimatum was delivered on Friday afternoon by Deputy Premier James Merlino, as he was announced as a replacement for former Emergency Services Minister Jane Garrett.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 05:52

Solemn Sloth: Jul 11, 2015; Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.

hooman posted:

This was assumed yesterday but here's the confirmation.

"Police confirmed Sourian did not stab anyone and the three bystanders, who include an 82-year-old woman and 65-year-old woman, are in a stable condition in hospital."

Man with knife runs at cops, cops open fire and shoot knife man and 3 bystanders.

EDIT: Apparently it wasn't even a knife, it was a pair of scissors.

Good to know police are fuckups here too. If that edit is true though, god drat.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:19

adamantium|wang: Sep 14, 2003; Missing you

https://twitter.com/AntonyGreenABC/status/741133973817053184

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:27

Amoeba102: Jan 22, 2010

Police take running with scissors very seriously.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:28

Seagull: Oct 9, 2012; give me a chip

adamantium|wang posted:

https://twitter.com/AntonyGreenABC/status/741133973817053184

can't wait for the no anti paedophile party to be the deciding vote

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:31

You Am I: May 20, 2001; Me @ your poasting

adamantium|wang posted:

https://twitter.com/AntonyGreenABC/status/741133973817053184

Ooooh boy

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:36

hooman: Oct 11, 2007; This guy seems legit.; Fun Shoe

Magog posted:

Good to know police are fuckups here too. If that edit is true though, god drat.

A couple of the witnesses spoke about scissors and there's a photo of the scissors on the ground at the scene so it seems that way at the moment, but not officially confirmed yet.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:38

wombat74: Sep 30, 2005; Corporate Fat Cat

Shame, Shame, Shame Australia

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:38

tithin: Nov 14, 2003; [Grandmaster Tactician]

adamantium|wang posted:

https://twitter.com/AntonyGreenABC/status/741133973817053184

Isn't voting due to start in a month?

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:43

WhiskeyWhiskers: Oct 14, 2013; "هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

tbf to the coppers, a pair of scissors are like double the knife!

So what's the deal with not randomising the ballot papers? Just to make the job easier for vote counters and scrutineers?

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:43

Amoeba102: Jan 22, 2010

Change ballot papers to circles, with text aligned along the radius such that there is no first position.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:57

Tokamak: Dec 22, 2004

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

tbf to the coppers, a pair of scissors are like double the knife!

So what's the deal with not randomising the ballot papers? Just to make the job easier for vote counters and scrutineers?

I'd imagine they are printed like newspapers. And that doing multiple runs and coming up with a way to randomise them is too much work/money.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 06:57

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 17:53

Redcordial: Nov 7, 2009; TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

lol the country is fed up with your safe spaces and trigger warnings you useless special snowflakes, send the sjws to mexico

I made a formal report at the local police station earlier, regarding the vehicle that reversed into me and my motorbike yesterday.

I'm happy that the plates matched the description of the vehicle, and given it was a hit and run I'm hopefully, almost certain to be reimbursed for damages.

The plates were registered to an address in Ballarat... Maybe that explains why he was so uncooperative, possible UPF soldier??

On the reals, I'm quite happy that I memorised the plates correctly until I arrived where my exam was about to be underway.. what a loving day. I just hope I can get the money back for my destroyed tire and towing bills...

Disclaimer: I don't advise riding anywhere with a blown front tire, because holy poo poo. But I had an exam to attend *shrugs*

Redcordial fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jun 10, 2016

# ? Jun 10, 2016 07:00

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