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Internet Kraken posted:Yeah that sounds terrible. How about instead of cutting more branches they make them fun to play instead? I like parts of Pan and Hell, there's just too much bullshit you have to go through to get to the enjoyable parts. The solution is obvious; get rid of the time waste, focus on the actual difficult portions. Make it less about wading through a bunch of lovely enemies across a ton of floors and more about tough fights on smaller floors. The proposal doesn't cut any branch, it adds one. It also shortens the extended to a half of what it is now. It streamlines the demonic rune to not be a blind luck anymore. It plans to make Pan less boring. There is also an alternative proposla to compress Hell into a single 9-floor branch with all the runes on odd-numbered floors. Seems like you are disagreeing with something imaginary.
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Jun 10, 2016 06:55
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It cuts the branches by only making them show up in some games, which I don't want. The reason I do extended is because I want to do more with the character. I don't want it to be shorter, I just want it to focus on the fun parts. Its all optional anyways, so what's the point of making a bunch of the runes not show up? What I want is for Pan and Hell to be made more compact with less pointless chaff to wade through. With Pan the solution is easy; make the rune floors more likely to show up the more pan lords you slay. That way you aren't just randomly wandering around and have a goal to hunt down the lords rather than just diving past them. Which is what that proposal actually suggests, which is good, but it ruins it by making it alternate with Hell. I'd be really annoyed if I wanted to do extended with a character and welp, I got the lovely Hell runes instead of the Pan runes which can actually be enjoyable.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:04
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Internet Kraken posted:It cuts the branches by only making them show up in some games, which I don't want. The reason I do extended is because I want to do more with the character. I don't want it to be shorter, I just want it to focus on the fun parts. Its all optional anyways, so what's the point of making a bunch of the runes not show up?
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Jun 10, 2016 07:25
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Poison Mushroom posted:Isn't DCSS open source? No one's stopping you from making a fork, even if it's just a minor one.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:28
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Yeah, don't cut the number of available runes. If you feel there are too many places in extended you could always just go win instead. There are numbers between 3 and 15. A pan change to make finding the demonic rune/killing lords making the unique floors more common and a compression of hells 1-6 is all I would want from an extended change. Don't combine all the hells either, that's dumb.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:30
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one of the major issues is that extended is a goddamn chore to play through. one of the easiest ways to go about solving that is to trim down how many levels on average a player will have to putter around. that hypothetical change to pan sounds great, and really what hell would need is some tidying up. it's still annoying and poo poo, but reducing the 7 levels is a start.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:39
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I just found my second FDA for this game. I'm on D4.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:56
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I thought that a nondemonic themed extended area would be best off if it went with more of a mythological direction than a purely holy / divine one. Like a Valhalla or Olympus. Fighting Demigods, Valkyries, and some new top tier giants. Some holy enemies perhaps, but not entirely focused on it.
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Jun 10, 2016 08:12
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Dee Ehm posted:I thought that a nondemonic themed extended area would be best off if it went with more of a mythological direction than a purely holy / divine one. Like a Valhalla or Olympus. Fighting Demigods, Valkyries, and some new top tier giants. Some holy enemies perhaps, but not entirely focused on it.
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Jun 10, 2016 08:23
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lordfrikk posted:There is actually a fairly recent plan posted on the dev wiki which IMO sounds great and I hope it comes to fruition, it includes cutting the number of runes to 11 along with having only one of Hell or Pan available during a single game and adding a new holy-themed branch called Purgatory with a new rune to keep the number of runes equal. EDIT: As others said, just cut the 1-6 Hell levels. About Pan, I don't know. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 09:10
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Poison Mushroom posted:Isn't DCSS open source? No one's stopping you from making a fork, even if it's just a minor one. The computer programmer's version of love it or leave it.
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Jun 10, 2016 10:58
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How high should I train invocations if I'm worshiping Makhleb? Until I can invoke all his poo poo without failing, or is there some benefit to training it higher?
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Jun 10, 2016 12:40
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I just got triple crossbows to mindelay for the first time. I can't believe what I've been missing out on, I wonder how far I can stretch 1500 bolts...
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Jun 10, 2016 12:45
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BigFactory posted:The computer programmer's version of love it or leave it.
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Jun 10, 2016 13:15
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firestruck posted:How high should I train invocations if I'm worshiping Makhleb? Until I can invoke all his poo poo without failing, or is there some benefit to training it higher? More invocations means more damage on destruction and more duration on summons. Both of them go from game winning crutches to merely good as you get to the endgame though, so don't feel too obligated to pile on invo training.
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Jun 10, 2016 14:33
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World Famous W posted:I do not like these ideas at all. Not at all. I only do 15 rune games now and that is because I look forward to fighting each Pan and Hell lord. I... I thought I was the only one. Trimming Hell I am completely on board with because there is very little fun or exciting about getting kicked in the nuts by the RNG for seven floors. The idea to make it so that the demonic rune shows up quicker based on time spent/demon lords slain is a Good Idea. A new holy themed branch would be fun. More = better! (Except with Hell)
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Jun 10, 2016 15:46
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Poison Mushroom posted:I like this idea. You could even have Titans as like the ultimate extension of the Ogres/Giants tree. We already have those! But yes, the idea was more creatures along these lines. Probably a lot of big elemental damage, the spirits of ancient heroes, greater dragons, demigods that might function in a class system a la demonspawn / draconian enemies. An extended area that feels more like Zot in how it challenges you than Hell. Also, as far as hell goes, I don't mind the diving down too much? It's really rarely been painful, occasionally tedious but not too bad, until you get contam from hell effects or something. Its kinda wonky in its difficulty. I actually find the last floor of each Hell to be the most tedious and painful as I scrounge the absolutely titantic levels for loot and try to clear out the dangerous enemies that might double back on me in a fight. I'd rather see something where diving down Hell is like an actual gauntlet, breaking into bunkers with vaults of enemies and ambushes to get past to each staircase. Then make the final level get you right into the action with the hell Lord. Dee Ehm fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 15:58
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World Famous W posted:I do not like these ideas at all. Not at all. I only do 15 rune games now and that is because I look forward to fighting each Pan and Hell lord.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:10
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Poison Mushroom posted:I just found my second FDA for this game.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:21
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Fire Dragon Armor, made from enchanting a fire dragon's hide after butchering it if you haven't done that
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Jun 10, 2016 17:24
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How many people truly bitch about "Oh man I got shoals now i can't get swamp" or "Oh man I got snake, now i don't get to do spider or serengetti" I bet if Hell-Pan were rouletted you'd get used to it.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:50
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I probably would, but I would also like if it they kept the branches and just drastically cut down on their length. Especially pan, my god waiting for the demonic rune to generate sucks
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Jun 10, 2016 17:54
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It'd be a pain in the rear end for tournament, because then you'd feel obligated to do extended twice instead of just once. (And hope that your extended-ready chars get whichever of hell/pan you didn't get the first time) It's not like Lair branches, which you're going to be doing anyway. Admittedly they shouldn't be balancing the game around tournament  , though. 
Haifisch fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 17:55
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kalstrams posted:But then you have to play tournament on the official version. Besides that, minor fork is unlikely if you also want the rest of the gameplay changes from the forward versions, and for all that to hold up well together, as hypothetical new developments would no longer build around classic notion of extended Crawl, should the proposal fly. circus animals seems to be doing pretty well at keeping itself up-to-date with master on top of its own, very extensive, changes. the dev is a machine, though... it's interesting to see what crawl looks like when it's just one person's vision driving the project, rather than a collaborative exercise.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:56
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Does anyone host circus animals as a web client? It'd have to be up to the dev to make it a web client right? edit: derp, read further down the git page me edit edit: LAVA ORCS AND DJINNI!!! So long regular Crawl! pathetic little tramp fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 18:00
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PleasingFungus posted:circus animals seems to be doing pretty well at keeping itself up-to-date with master on top of its own, very extensive, changes. the dev is a machine, though... pf, obv. I know that anyone can't "speak for the devs" somuch being a collaboration - but curious to see, what is the thought of "the devs" (as far as you know) on the debate of Hells floors 1-6/7? Is there one? I say this very much as someone in the 'hell is a mostly unfun slog' camp, fwiw.
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Jun 10, 2016 18:19
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Haifisch posted:It'd be a pain in the rear end for tournament, because then you'd feel obligated to do extended twice instead of just once. (And hope that your extended-ready chars get whichever of hell/pan you didn't get the first time) It's not like Lair branches, which you're going to be doing anyway.
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Jun 10, 2016 18:27
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pathetic little tramp posted:How many people truly bitch about "Oh man I got shoals now i can't get swamp" or "Oh man I got snake, now i don't get to do spider or serengetti" I bet if Hell-Pan were rouletted you'd get used to it.
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Jun 10, 2016 18:40
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Same, but that's because I have to do shoals(the laggiest, worst for autoexplore, most lethal and annoying lair branch), not because I don't get to do swamp. By the way every other time I read this thread I end up feeling like "do people really feel this way about X? maybe I should just hang out on tavern" and then I go to tavern and read something like minmay with 100% seriousness writing paragraphs about how all the lines that gods say after the player dies except fedhas' are worthless clutter that should be removed lmao. I guess I'd rather hang out with people who wish lava orcs and djinni still existed
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Jun 10, 2016 18:52
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IronicDongz posted:Same, but that's because I have to do shoals(the laggiest, worst for autoexplore, most lethal and annoying lair branch), not because I don't get to do swamp. I'll never forget my 15-rune djinni. Special time it was.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:01
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C7ty1 posted:pf, obv. I know that anyone can't "speak for the devs" somuch being a collaboration - but curious to see, what is the thought of "the devs" (as far as you know) on the debate of Hells floors 1-6/7? Is there one? there's been intermittent talk about shortening it. my feeling is that the unique part of the hells, the thing that should be focused on, is the attempt to dive without getting murdered by hell effects. if i were doing a redesign, i'd remove the incentive to clear floors, make hell effects rarer but more intense (with more of a focus on spawning enemies rather than doing pure damage or other weird miscast effects), and generally try to add more of a 'can't rest, dive or flee' feel. i'm not planning on doing a redesign at any point in the near future, but that'd be my goal.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:05
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Why were djinn and lava orcs removed? Edit: How large is Crawl dev team, by the way?
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Jun 10, 2016 19:05
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Djinn were really broken and weird and lava orcs were really broken and worked based around a mechanic(tension) which isn't very good at measuring danger and is very, very gameable.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:09
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IronicDongz posted:Djinn were really broken and weird and lava orcs were really broken and worked based around a mechanic(tension) which isn't very good at measuring danger and is very, very gameable.  I might have played lava orc once or twice, I think - first version of Crawl that I played was 0.11.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:12
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IronicDongz posted:By the way every other time I read this thread I end up feeling like "do people really feel this way about X? maybe I should just hang out on tavern" and then I go to tavern and read something like minmay with 100% seriousness writing paragraphs about how all the lines that gods say after the player dies except fedhas' are worthless clutter that should be removed lmao. I guess I'd rather hang out with people who wish lava orcs and djinni still existed by far the most pleasant dungeon crawl community i've ever run into was the old imp zone crawl thread, from maybe a year back. a bunch of new players (plus dis astragant, for some reason?), exploring and messing around and dying. just nice. minmay's position is that bad flavor is worse than leaving a blank space for players to project their own 'headcanon' into. that's true! i think he's wrong about god lines, but it's a matter of personal taste. kalstrams posted:Why were djinn and lava orcs removed? both were experiments in design, and not all designs work out. djinn were shared MP+HP (plus fire immunity, flying, contam instead of hunger, increased miscast chance from contam, and some other stuff i'm forgetting). lava orcs had a 'temperature' mechanic that rose and fell with 'tension', and long story short you ran around in circles until you got scared enough of a hydra chasing you that you burst into flames and the hydra died. active crawl dev team is, idk, maybe around nine or ten people? here's some graphs to play with.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:15
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PleasingFungus posted:there's been intermittent talk about shortening it. my feeling is that the unique part of the hells, the thing that should be focused on, is the attempt to dive without getting murdered by hell effects. if i were doing a redesign, i'd remove the incentive to clear floors, make hell effects rarer but more intense (with more of a focus on spawning enemies rather than doing pure damage or other weird miscast effects), and generally try to add more of a 'can't rest, dive or flee' feel. I agree on Hells. I've thought what if they were made 27 floors so you would have no incentive to clear everything, but then people would totally clear them anyway. What about a timer on each floor, and if you don't find a down stair by the end of the timer, you get kicked back to the vestibule and those Hell floors get regenerated? Except for floor 7 of course.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:17
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PleasingFungus posted:there's been intermittent talk about shortening it. my feeling is that the unique part of the hells, the thing that should be focused on, is the attempt to dive without getting murdered by hell effects. if i were doing a redesign, i'd remove the incentive to clear floors, make hell effects rarer but more intense (with more of a focus on spawning enemies rather than doing pure damage or other weird miscast effects), and generally try to add more of a 'can't rest, dive or flee' feel. Why not make each of the Hells specialize in a certain type of effect, with all of them trying to reinforce the current idea that you can't really burst through Hell? Even if you generalize the effects (spawning enemies, weird miscasts, pure damage), you could set it up so that each wing of Hell has its own feel and would give certain builds more/less reason to go into it. Cocytus could have freezing clouds/solidify effects or something to distinguish from the generic "spawn demons/drain MP/massive damage" effects.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:19
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+- lines is a very shameful metric, but you at least use it in purely statistical fashion. (hopefully)
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Jun 10, 2016 19:19
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PleasingFungus posted:there's been intermittent talk about shortening it. my feeling is that the unique part of the hells, the thing that should be focused on, is the attempt to dive without getting murdered by hell effects. if i were doing a redesign, i'd remove the incentive to clear floors, make hell effects rarer but more intense (with more of a focus on spawning enemies rather than doing pure damage or other weird miscast effects), and generally try to add more of a 'can't rest, dive or flee' feel. Cool! Thanks for the reply. I like that idea - I'm curious. Would it be more along the lines of 'The forces of [Hell] have found you!' sorta thing? Potentially modified somewhat on Stealth? I know some people are frustrated with stabbers in extended, but admit I don't have a whole lot of experience there. I love the final floors of the Hells - taking on the lairs of those big bosses - but every time I look at the thought of extended I pretty much always go 'lolnah' I say that even as someone who doesn't clear out every floor or anything, but having to go through these big floors + what hell naturally throws at you + hell effects + no loot except for the end...
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Jun 10, 2016 19:25
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the idea of having a sprawling 'final' floor to house each of the hell lords is fine and all, but when literally every floor before it is a random jumble of empty space filled with only enemies it's kind of annoying.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:30
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