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Kids reading Batman are probably old enough that they understand the concept of death and that someone who kills other people is dangerous and scary. Throwing the concept of sexual assault, consent, and the underlying politics of gender relations is a bridge too far beyond good taste. If you represent rape as just another bad thing for bad people to do, you're trivializing it to an offensive degree. If you give rape it's full gravity, you're not doing a fun superhero comic for kids anymore. And this is why comic books are slowly dying
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Jun 10, 2016 14:45
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I am legitimately curious if New Frontier is a bad comic then. I mean it features a scene where Wonder Woman arms a bunch of women and encourages them to murder prisoners because they killed their mates and children (when the very unsubtle implication they were kept alive as comfort women). Or does it not count for some reason?
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Jun 10, 2016 15:11
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It's a thorny situation, right. Even in regular canon rape plays a major role in Wonder Woman's origin. Not just in Azzarello's version, regular pre-Flashpoint canon had Hercules raping and enslaving the Amazons, going so far as having the gods make the Amazons keep their bracers as eternal reminders of their "failure" in being deceived, which is incredibly skeevy and always seemed hosed to me. My hot take on New Frontier is that it's not exploitative, there's nothing sexual about the depictions of the women, and it's not been forced into the spotlight the same way TKJ has been. It's also much more ambiguous than you're implying as not killing women is common enough in wars even if you aren't planning on pressing them into sexual slavery.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:23
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Travis343 posted:My hot take on New Frontier is that it's not exploitative, there's nothing sexual about the depictions of the women, and it's not been forced into the spotlight the same way TKJ has been. It's also much more ambiguous than you're implying as not killing women is common enough in wars even if you aren't planning on pressing them into sexual slavery. New Frontier had a movie before TKJ did and is frequently held up as a must-read comic. Saying it hasn't been 'forced into the spotlight' isn't really fair. New Frontier also has the John Henry scene which is about subject matter very complex and horrifying, it has the Hal Jordan scenes, it has countless scenes that make it a difficult read for kids. This doesn't make it a bad comic. It is okay for a comic to touch on serious subject matter and not every comic is going to be intended for every age group. I admit that part of my problem with this argument is that it treats violence as all one glob and go "it's okay! Kids understand violence!" Which isn't true and which should be easily disproven by the fact that one of the most frequent tools in the superhero playbook, even in more kid-friendly stuff, is torture which works 99% of the time and is done by overly heroic characters who absolutely must. In an era where a Supreme Court Justice pointed towards a television show as an example of why torture is necessary, that's extremely damaging poo poo. If you think that comics being not kid friendly is a problem (and I agree), waving it off as "well, violence is okay, kids understand murder is bad" is basically trying to write off things you like as being 'okay.' Rape is absolutely devalued and not treated seriously enough or given the right impact, especially with poo poo like Dr. Light. However going "rape is off the table but violence as much as you want" is just pushing the blame onto a single subject matter instead of the overall writing while ignoring the impact other things can have.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:43
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That comic is different because the people keeping the comfort women weren't long-running, beloved comic book supervillains whose presence in the story was part of the selling point of the book. I think.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:46
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qntm posted:That comic is different because the people keeping the comfort women weren't long-running, beloved comic book supervillains whose presence in the story was part of the selling point of the book. I think. That's a really weak argument. It's kind of tiring that people ignore the entire context of The Killing Joke to go "It's there to sell how AWESOME and BADASS the Joker" when that wasn't true even when it published and the fact it has been flogged constantly isn't the fault of the original artist or writer. The comic is basically a long story about how the entire Joker/Batman situation is pathetic. The Killing Joke doesn't want you to think the Joker is cool or awesome or anything but sort of sad and pathetic.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:58
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It is too bad literally nobody at DC realizes that.
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Jun 10, 2016 16:10
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ImpAtom posted:I am legitimately curious if New Frontier is a bad comic then. I mean it features a scene where Wonder Woman arms a bunch of women and encourages them to murder prisoners because they killed their mates and children (when the very unsubtle implication they were kept alive as comfort women). Or does it not count for some reason? A big part of the problem in The Killing Joke is that while Barbara is the victim the story cares far more about how Batman and Jim react. It's similar to Fridging: men do things and women have things done to them. The example in The New Frontier avoids that because the women are more active.
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Jun 10, 2016 16:17
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Travis343 posted:It is too bad literally nobody at DC realizes that. Yeah, but I admit that is why I'm annoyed at Alan Moore bashing. Rebirth's basic thesis is "it isn't fair that Alan Moore wrote these stories we horribly misunderstood. It's all his fault!" And not even Grant Morrison is immune to that with his framing Alan Moore as the Horrible Corruptive Vampire who ruined pure good DC comics. Rather than putting the blame on DC editorial where it belongs there's a lot of shifting it to crazy snake god guy because he's a convenient target. They keep blaming other people and outside sources for why DC comics are cruel and violent and horrible instead of acknowledging that they're the ones at fault. Morrison is, again, the closest but even there he can't resist framing himself as the Pure Guy Fighting For Fun regardless of how much violence, sexualized danger and horror he includes in his own comics. Doctor Spaceman posted:A big part of the problem in The Killing Joke is that while Barbara is the victim the story cares far more about how Batman and Jim react. It's similar to Fridging: men do things and women have things done to them. The example in The New Frontier avoids that because the women are more active. And that's fine to acknowledge as a problem with the comic but it isn't the same thing as it being wrong for including rape, nor does it suddenly render the entire comic without value. Part of the problem with (for lack of a better word) tropes-based criticism is that it ignores the context of the actual argument in favor of trying to quantify a comic/book/movie as bad because it does Bad Thing. This is directly against the intent of things like Women In Fridges or The Bechdel Test which are there to point to an overly trend in media rather than any one specific thing and neither was intended to instantly mean a story is bad if it includes it. It's a point to discuss and it's absolutely fair to say The Killing Joke devalues Barbara Gordon as a minor player in the story despite the horrific thing that happens to her. It's also fair to point out it wasn't intended to have long-term consequences for the character and was effectively envisioned as an Elseworld/What-If and that the casualness with which the character was treated was influenced by that. (And Moore even was unsure of it was got the infamous line in response.) The issue here is that The Killing Joke isn't about Barbara Gordon but it has become her defining story. It arguably is the fault of Suicide Squad but even there the intent was to rehabilitate the character rather than just magically fixing her. You can 'blame' Jon Ostrander and Kim Yale for Oracle becoming defining but is it fair to blame them for writing a good story out of a bad situation? Especially because Yale did it in response to how Killing Joke devalued Barbara Gordon. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 16:20
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Personally I'm glad the The Killing Joke exists mainly because it was a factor in getting Tim Burton to make the first Batman movie
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Jun 10, 2016 16:48
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, but I admit that is why I'm annoyed at Alan Moore bashing. Rebirth's basic thesis is "it isn't fair that Alan Moore wrote these stories we horribly misunderstood. It's all his fault!" And not even Grant Morrison is immune to that with his framing Alan Moore as the Horrible Corruptive Vampire who ruined pure good DC comics. Rather than putting the blame on DC editorial where it belongs there's a lot of shifting it to crazy snake god guy because he's a convenient target. They keep blaming other people and outside sources for why DC comics are cruel and violent and horrible instead of acknowledging that they're the ones at fault. Morrison is, again, the closest but even there he can't resist framing himself as the Pure Guy Fighting For Fun regardless of how much violence, sexualized danger and horror he includes in his own comics. I think most of us are in agreement with this. I love a lot of Morrison's work while mostly only appreciating Moore's on the abstract level, and I've talked a lot of poo poo about Moore in my time, but I think it's safe to say he doesn't have his head nearly as far up his rear end as Morrison, who doesn't have his head nearly as far up his rear end as DC editorial. quote:And that's fine to acknowledge as a problem with the comic but it isn't the same thing as it being wrong for including rape, nor does it suddenly render the entire comic without value. Making Barbara into Oracle was a way to re-empower her without simply handwaving away The Bad Thing. I personally would have preferred if the mainstream DCU had simply ignored TKJ, but I can't fault a writer for salvaging the situation by portraying Barbara as someone with the strength to adapt to a hosed up situation and carry on being a hero in whatever way she can.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:39
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This association of Killing Joke with Slasher Joker is weird, because the comic is explicitly about how Joker is a sad, pathetic man desperately trying to prove that there's some meaning to his suffering. As was said, people ignore this part and just focus on how awesome the Joker is and how you can't stop him becuase he's just too random and chaotic to control! And yes it's much more DC editorials fault that Moore or other writers trying to appeal to that really low fanbase that just want Slasher Joker. Which is why i'm only really worried about Leto's Joker in Suicide Squad, because DC seems to think stabby stabb Joker is the one people want.
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Jun 10, 2016 18:41
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If everything an author writes is misinterpreted, that's their fault. Alan Moore: Great monster, or greatest monster?
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Jun 10, 2016 18:43
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Yeah it is all well and good to say DC leans way too heavily on a small handful of "mature" stories that were never intended to be the direction for their entire fictional universe but at the same time, Alan Moore writes about rape a whole goddamn lot all on his own.
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Jun 10, 2016 18:50
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Travis343 posted:Yeah it is all well and good to say DC leans way too heavily on a small handful of "mature" stories that were never intended to be the direction for their entire fictional universe but at the same time, Alan Moore writes about rape a whole goddamn lot all on his own. So does Grant Morrison who tends to favor corruptive villains who have sexual vices. It actually comes up a whole lot and features everything from 'this character is possessed and forced to do sexual things against their will" to "This young girl was raped and murdered" to things like Hannibal Lector Sivana who wants to 'ruin' Mary Marvel in thinly-coded ways. Somehow he's not getting called the Rape Guy though.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:59
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Calling Moore the Rape Guy when Mark Millar and Garth Ennis both exist and have made huge impacts on the current state of the comic industry, and are far more relevant right now than Alan Moore is...let's say foolish. Let's go with foolish.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:02
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That's why you should use 'a' instead of 'the'.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:17
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Alan Moore was the rape guy of the 80s tho
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Jun 10, 2016 20:21
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Also Grant Morrison didn't write a comic about kids from classic children's books boning down 24/7 (that I am aware of)
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Jun 10, 2016 20:23
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Wait what?
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Jun 10, 2016 20:31
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Toxxupation posted:Wait what? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Girls It's extremely fundamentally dishonest to describe it as "kids from classic children's books boning down 24/7" but it's the Hitler of Alan Moore discussions because once you reach the point you're not discussing anything but "I want to dislike Alan Moore."
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Jun 10, 2016 20:34
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Lost Girls should make you want to dislike Alan Moore.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:36
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Travis343 posted:Also Grant Morrison didn't write a comic about kids from classic children's books boning down 24/7 (that I am aware of) No but he did say in 2011 that he had never used rape in a comic in 30 years, although maybe he meant that he had written comics for 30 years prior to writing The Filth (and maybe Doom Patrol depending on how you interpret Crazy Jane's origins).
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Jun 10, 2016 20:39
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Travis343 posted:Yeah it is all well and good to say DC leans way too heavily on a small handful of "mature" stories that were never intended to be the direction for their entire fictional universe but at the same time, Alan Moore writes about rape a whole goddamn lot all on his own. Your weird hatred of the most talented living man in comics is really embarrassing.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:40
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He's not wrong tho
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Jun 10, 2016 20:47
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Lurdiak posted:Your weird hatred of the most talented living man in comics is really embarrassing. I actually think Alan Moore is a drat good writer but he is not above criticism for certain narrative quirks he might do well to ease off of
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Jun 10, 2016 20:48
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Travis343 posted:I actually think Alan Moore is a drat good writer but he is not above criticism for certain narrative quirks he might do well to ease off of Travis343 posted:Killing Joke is well drawn. It has good artwork. Thats pretty much it. ....?
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Jun 10, 2016 20:52
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He wrote other stuff.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:54
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Aphrodite posted:He wrote other stuff. I highly doubt someone who thinks The Killing Joke has absolutely no good scenes or writing or anything in it also thinks Alan Moore's other work qualifies as "drat good."
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Jun 10, 2016 20:55
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The killing joke is his weakest work by far.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:58
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ImpAtom posted:....? Moore himself will tell you TKJ is not good. That doesn't mean Watchmen or Swamp Thing or anything else he's done is bad. Is it really all or nothing? I can't like a writer but think one of his stories is dump?
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Jun 10, 2016 20:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:The killing joke is his weakest work by far. I mean it's not as bad as Neonomicon but yeah it's not top tier Moore. The better ultradark Batman graphic novel of that era is Arkham Asylum.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:01
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Travis343 posted:Moore himself will tell you TKJ is not good. That doesn't mean Watchmen or Swamp Thing or anything else he's done is bad. Is it really all or nothing? I can't like a writer but think one of his stories is dump? Alan Moore criticizes a lot of his own work, including Watchmen, so no, that isn't an answer. Like, is it so hard for you to go "I was being hyperbolic because I disliked the Barbara Gordon part of the story?" Or at least to actually say what you thought was so terrible about the story? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 21:01
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I mean it's not as bad as Neonomicon but yeah it's not top tier Moore. I forgot about Neonomicon, so fair point.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:08
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In the interest of fairness I would like to state that Morrison's Arkham Asylum is also bad. If I get time after work maybe I can go into detail about why I don't like TKJ but I don't really feel like I should have to justify not liking a story just because it is super popular and "important". Also probably should move this to the chat thread?
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Jun 10, 2016 21:13
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What's wrong with Necronomicon?
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Jun 10, 2016 21:25
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Nobody ever says how inspired they were by Neonomicon or Lost Girls so it's pretty irrelevant to bring them up in this context.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:25
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I mean it's not as bad as Neonomicon but yeah it's not top tier Moore. I quite like it. It's no Swamp Thing or Watchmen, but honestly what of that length could ever hope to be? quote:The better ultradark Batman graphic novel of that era is Arkham Asylum. Man, gently caress that.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:39
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Man do I loving hate the Joker.
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Jun 11, 2016 00:35
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The best Batman story is Long Halloween. I'll also accept Hush, Knightfall and No Mans Land.
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Jun 11, 2016 01:41
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