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Hush is real bad tho
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Jun 11, 2016 01:46
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Im getting real bummed out talking about what stories are bad all day
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Jun 11, 2016 01:52
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CharlestheHammer posted:Hush is real bad tho The first 2/3 are really good when you think Hush is actually Jason Todd. You know, its odd that its been how long and how the only Superman villains we've gotten are Lex and Zod? Why are they afraid to do Braniac? He only seems to show up in aborted Superman movies. Lex and the Joker should be shot into space on an arc that will bring them back to earth in 5-10 years, forcing DC to use other villains.
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Jun 11, 2016 02:56
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I would LOVE to see Brainiac in a movie. I would love to see Clayface in a movie too.
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Jun 11, 2016 02:57
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Well when they didn't use Lex or Zod they got Superman 3.
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Jun 11, 2016 03:23
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Lex is the iconic Superman villain and Zod is the iconic Superman movie villain basically and no Superman has lasted long enough to get past those yet. Ideally the current universe will except I think they're being hesitant about confirming a third Superman film so welp.
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Jun 11, 2016 03:26
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The real problem is that Superman has a poor group of villains. Lex the human with an inferiority complex, Zod the bad Superman, Bizarro the dumb Superman and Doomsday the death of Superman. They'll never do a Brainiac movie until they figure out how to squeeze him into the Caped Jesus narrative. It also doesn't help that nerd culture has conditioned us to think green skinned aliens are nymphomaniacs and not kleptomaniacs.
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Jun 11, 2016 04:38
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Doomsday barely counts as a villain. He just doesn't work outside of his initial story or as a callback to that story.
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Jun 11, 2016 04:55
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He doesn't even work in his story. He's a dumb bone monster in goofy shorts who kills superman because he punches so hard. For such a beloved and influential story Death of Superman has the goofiest villain ever.
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Jun 11, 2016 05:00
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He works fine in his own story. He's not exactly a compelling character but he's built up very effectively as a force of nature. There's just not a lot of places you can take a dumb evil guy who can kill Superman once he's done that. It's like Bane's problem but way worse. If you make him smart, he basically just turns into yet another lovely not-Darkseid cosmic threat. If you make Superman fight him again, Superman's just gonna win, no one's gonna buy that he's gonna die twice. The only story I've seen with him past the original appearance that made decent use of him was when Booster Gold had to figure out how to stop him during Flashpoint, and that only worked because Booster had a tenuous connection to him as the first guy to get bulldozed by him and the one who named him.
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Jun 11, 2016 05:04
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Heathen posted:The real problem is that Superman has a poor group of villains. Lex the human with an inferiority complex, Zod the bad Superman, Bizarro the dumb Superman and Doomsday the death of Superman. I really wish they would just ditch Snyder/Goyer and hire someone who can make a Superman movie that examines the concept of heroism from multiple angles while giving the audience a bit of "good guys win by being good" catharsis, with a few good-natured laughs and a dash of warm fuzzy feeling thrown in. Caped Jesus was old when it was Cyberpunk Jesus in 2003.
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Jun 11, 2016 05:54
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Metallo and Parasite are fun Superman villains.
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Jun 11, 2016 09:08
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Chaos Hippy posted:I really wish they would just ditch Snyder/Goyer and hire someone who can make a Superman movie that examines the concept of heroism from multiple angles while giving the audience a bit of "good guys win by being good" catharsis, with a few good-natured laughs and a dash of warm fuzzy feeling thrown in. Caped Jesus was old when it was Cyberpunk Jesus in 2003. Aside from half of that already being in the movie (the good guys win by doing good, for example, instead of just being good), the other half is just weird sentimentalism. This whole notion of the Christ myth being "old" and "tired" is always rather telling. How does salvation become a tired old story? When you don't believe in the idea anymore. It's not that the Christ myth is tired, it's that people are embarrassed by it. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 09:30
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http://moviepilot.com/posts/3960865...-in-wolverine-3 First set photos of the next Wolverine film. It looks like Patrick Stewart is being rushed out of a movie premier more than anything else....
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Jun 11, 2016 10:50
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Keyword detected: Snyder Keyword detected: superman Execute: bravest_lamp.exe
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Jun 11, 2016 13:13
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Lurdiak posted:I quite like it. It's no Swamp Thing or Watchmen, but honestly what of that length could ever hope to be? several individual issues of Swamp Thing are shorter than The Killing Joke, and better (almost every single one, in fact). Arkham Asylum is great. the "pure journey into Batman's Id" story has rarely been done better. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 14:42
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Aside from half of that already being in the movie (the good guys win by doing good, for example, instead of just being good), the other half is just weird sentimentalism Actually the exact opposite. The good guys only win by doing evil. The key to victory is not anything they do but Batman's creation of a god-killing spear specifically to murder a man. Without that nothing they do would have mattered. Superman's self-sacrifice would have been utterly meaningless otherwise. An attempt to do good (getting rid of the murder-spear) actually makes things worse for everyone and probably directly leads to Superman's death. Superman sacrifices himself certainly but that is because Superman is suicidal and hates himself. Note that Superman never comes to a conclusion on what to do. Rather, his journey of solitude is interrupted when he is forced out of it to rescue Lois, followed by being forced to attempt to murder a man in order to save his mother from horror, followed by further proof that his biological heritage only keeps threatening the world. Had he survived it would have just sparked a new wave of conversations about how terrible he is and what a threat he is, even if it is Luthor's fault. That is the real reason he didn't throw the spear to the trained warrior who is immune to its effects. He wanted to die. Batman v. Superman is a story about how evil is the most powerful force in the world and good wishes to die. Rather fitting for a story that leads up to Darkseid. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 15:59
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twistedmentat posted:The best Batman story is Long Halloween. I'll also accept Hush, Knightfall and No Mans Land. Hush? HUSH? A person who loves Hush doesn't get to complain about the Joker being trope-y.
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Jun 11, 2016 16:16
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:The better ultradark Batman graphic novel of that era is Arkham Asylum. Arkham Asylum has the ugliest art in a Batman story ever though. This is the story where Two Face can't piss without flipping his coin and Clayface has AIDS, right? I'm not confusing it with something else. twistedmentat posted:The best Batman story is Long Halloween. I'll also accept Hush, Knightfall and No Mans Land. I like Hush more than most, but its placement on this list is crazy. Year One should be there. Codependent Poster posted:Metallo and Parasite are fun Superman villains. Metallo is actually really cool. I don't see a movie centering around Parasite though. He's kinda one note.
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Jun 11, 2016 16:26
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SonicRulez posted:Arkham Asylum has the ugliest art in a Batman story ever though. This is the story where Two Face can't piss without flipping his coin and Clayface has AIDS, right? I'm not confusing it with something else. if you think Dave McKean's art is ugly I dunno what to tell you but yes that is the story
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Jun 11, 2016 16:38
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ImpAtom posted:Actually the exact opposite. The good guys only win by doing evil. The key to victory is not anything they do but Batman's creation of a god-killing spear specifically to murder a man. Without that nothing they do would have mattered. Superman's self-sacrifice would have been utterly meaningless otherwise. An attempt to do good (getting rid of the murder-spear) actually makes things worse for everyone and probably directly leads to Superman's death. Superman sacrifices himself certainly but that is because Superman is suicidal and hates himself. Aside from that none of that particularly represents evil aside from Batman's planned murder, your mistake is that you shut out the possibility of redemption. Thus Batman's mistake cannot be redeemed, and Superman cannot sacrifice himself to stop his own dark side. Also, 
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 16:56
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:if you think Dave McKean's art is ugly I dunno what to tell you but yes that is the story It's abstract in away that very few comics are, and I think there's places were "ugly" might be a fair call.
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Jun 11, 2016 17:03
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SonicRulez posted:
Hush was only there because last time I made a list of Best Batman stories, it got dogpiled for not including Hush on it. I will reiterate that the first 2/3 works really well when the red herring of it being Jason Todd was in effect, but the end just tears everything down. But yea, Year One is consistently good. Though glad no ones saying "but where's Dark Knight Returns???"" gently caress you, that story has been surpassed, and if you say "its the greatest Batman story ever told" its not because it is, but because you read an article from 20 years ago saying it was.
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Jun 11, 2016 17:42
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GlenMR posted:It's abstract in away that very few comics are, and I think there's places were "ugly" might be a fair call. yeah that's fair, but I also think it's fair to say the hideousness with which he portrays the rogue's gallery is 100% deliberate and not some failing on his part.
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Jun 11, 2016 17:49
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My favorite Batman story is Batman Annual #14 from 1990. Jeph Loeb pretty much ripped off the Two-face stuff in Long Halloween from that. I'd hesitate to call it The Best Batman Ever, because Two-Face is like my favorite DC character so I have a massive bias.
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Jun 11, 2016 17:49
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there are a lot of good ones but my favorite Batman story honestly might be The Batman of Arkham by Alan Grant & Enrique Alcetena. the compassionate Batman is one that doesn't get explored enough.
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Jun 11, 2016 17:55
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Hush is like a video game where people get to fight each of Batman's iconic enemies one after the other, which might be fun when you're the one with the controller, but you're not. Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee are holding the controller, and by God they want to show you some Iconic Batman Moments. Here's Batman punching Superman with kryptonite! Here's Batman swordfighting Ra's al Ghul! Here's the Joker for no Goddamned reason, and here's Batman for sure, this time, definitely going to Cross That Line and kill him! Here's every single one of Batman's rogues, somehow involved with this plot! It's like a bad cover band playing all your favorite songs. There's no reason whatsoever not to just listen to the original versions of those songs and pretend Hush never happened.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:00
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:there are a lot of good ones but my favorite Batman story honestly might be The Batman of Arkham by Alan Grant & Enrique Alcetena. the compassionate Batman is one that doesn't get explored enough. Yeah, I really liked that story. Some of my favorite BTAS episodes are about Batman being a nice dude who has genuine compassion and love for the people of Gotham, even the villains.  Travis343 posted:Hush is like a video game where people get to fight each of Batman's iconic enemies one after the other, which might be fun when you're the one with the controller, but you're not. Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee are holding the controller, and by God they want to show you some Iconic Batman Moments. Here's Batman punching Superman with kryptonite! Here's Batman swordfighting Ra's al Ghul! Here's the Joker for no Goddamned reason, and here's Batman for sure, this time, definitely going to Cross That Line and kill him! Here's every single one of Batman's rogues, somehow involved with this plot! It's like a bad cover band playing all your favorite songs. There's no reason whatsoever not to just listen to the original versions of those songs and pretend Hush never happened. You're describing The Long Halloween, too. It's a completely nonsenical murder mystery broken up by an endless series of BATMAN FIGHTS ALL YOUR FAVORITES!!! with the broad strokes of the Two-Face origin mixed in to distract from the fact that the murder mystery never gets a proper resolution. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 18:01
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Long Halloween is nowhere near as bad as Hush about rehashing stuff that's been done before. Yeah there are a lot of villains there that have absolutely no business being in the story especially considering it's supposed to be a followup to Year One but there's also a lot of fun mobster stuff and extremely good art. Every story Loeb writes is like this. Long Halloween is still pretty good, though. I even like Dark Victory for the Dick Grayson stuff, but it's almost as bad as Hush is. I can forgive a lot when Tim Sale is drawing it though
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Jun 11, 2016 18:06
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I think if some jobber artist had been on Long Halloween no one would bring it up as a classic story. I mean I don't hate it, but it's just... all right.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:08
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See that's why I like Long Halloween, it's a case that even Batman can't solve, showing he is fallible.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:09
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I don't mind Batman not solving it, I mind that even Loeb has never been able to explain who killed who when because he didn't give a poo poo about anything making sense.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:17
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Lurdiak posted:I don't mind Batman not solving it, I mind that even Loeb has never been able to explain who killed who when because he didn't give a poo poo about anything making sense. I mean, to be fair, you could say the same thing about Raymond Chandler
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Jun 11, 2016 18:25
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twistedmentat posted:Hush was only there because last time I made a list of Best Batman stories, it got dogpiled for not including Hush on it. I will reiterate that the first 2/3 works really well when the red herring of it being Jason Todd was in effect, but the end just tears everything down. But yea, Year One is consistently good. I really considered putting TDKR, but then I saw that coming and opted not to. It's a pretty good Batman story if you take it for what it is instead of what it's done.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:29
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Hush ends up on a lot of "Beginner's Batman" lists because it's the equivalent of a Greatest Hits album, I think.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:33
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It's pretty much impossible to argue that both Dark Knight Returns and Year One aren't at the very least both top 10 Batman stories, its just that people now are deeply uncomfortable endorsing anything Frank Miller did (with the exception of Daredevil I guess)
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Jun 11, 2016 18:34
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Year One is inarguable but I think a case could easily be made that TDKR isn't.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:39
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Toxxupation posted:Year One is inarguable but I think a case could easily be made that TDKR isn't. It's possible I guess, but those I've seen ignore everything about craft or storytelling in favor of "I don't like how dark/right wing it is" Edit: I will say this, though: Give Me Liberty is pretty much just as good (if not necessarily as groundbreaking), way less right wing, and gets like no attention whatsoever. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 18:41
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If you put anything by Jeph Loeb above TDKR or Year One, you have awful opinions unless you're strictly talking about art (and even then, I wouldn't put Hush above either of those).
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Jun 11, 2016 18:54
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:It's possible I guess, but those I've seen ignore everything about craft or storytelling in favor of "I don't like how dark/right wing it is" Anticipating a response like this I crafted a top ten that doesn't include TDKR, in no particular order. Zero Year Death in the Family Death of the Family Robin Dies at Midnight Laughing Fish KJ Year One R.I.P. Batman and Son Batman, Inc Knightfall No Man's Land My issues are less that it's dark/right wing (especially because it's not really, considering Miller made Superman into a blatant Reaganite and the villain of the story), and especially considering my off-the-top-of-my-head list of stories above feature much darker/grimmer stories, but that it's a glorified what-if story that feels like it sets up the Superman/Batman conflict by basically completely rewriting his (Superman's) character to be a total stooge in a way that feels disingenuous since Miller's total antipathy for Superman bleeds through the script. It's muddled at points in how violent Batman's willing to be and communicates its ideas in an unclear way, giving ammunition to people who argue that Batman kills people (even though the whole story makes a specific point to where dialog in Batman's mouth expresses how he doesn't kill). The art in general feels kind of lacklustre outside of iconic panels, which admittedly are some of the most resonant images in Batman's seventy-plus year history. I feel like it's a bunch of really good ideas strung together in a story that doesn't quite work, usually performing character assassination or creating ambiguous interpretations to reinforce Miller's vision. And that's not taking to account its impact on Batman stories going forward, which I would argue is almost entirely bad. Unlike KJ, which has that same issue, I don't think TDKR is good enough to validate its legacy. Now, influential comics, yes, TDKR is number one or two, depending on how you feel about Year One. Influence-wise, it's unparalleled by any of the above stories.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:54
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