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I do not think Death Of/In the Family, Knightfall, or Batman Inc. are really any good at all. I'm actually surprised anyone would stump for Death In the Family, that comic's pretty awful. These lists all need more Denny O'Neill/Neal Adams stories
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Jun 11, 2016 18:58
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That's not a bad list. Death in the Family doesn't really belong there. It's iconic sure, but I don't think it was particularly good. I liked Death of the Family, but I wouldn't put it over TDKR.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:00
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Anything that results in the death of Jason Todd is automatically a top ten Batman story imo. I would've put Battle for the Cowl on there because it had Dick Grayson as Batman beating the ever unholy living gently caress out of a whiny pathetic Jason Todd as Batman.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:03
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as hacky as Judd Winick can be, I do think Under the Red Hood is okay.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:06
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Death of the Family is what got me to drop New 52 Batman. Did not like it at all. Death IN the Family I'd rate higher if the ending was an actual editorial decision rather than the result of polling. My preferred Batman stories tend to be ones where he can't just punch his way out of the situation. I'd rate TDKR in the bottom half of the People talk endlessly of Bucky being Cap at some point, but I've never seen anyone suggest that maybe do a Dick Greyson Batman movie. I loved that run of Batman, because while Dick is physically capable, he wasn't nearly as smart and observant as Bruce, which lead to some interesting stories.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:11
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twistedmentat posted:Death of the Family is what got me to drop New 52 Batman. Did not like it at all. Death IN the Family I'd rate higher if the ending was an actual editorial decision rather than the result of polling. yeah what I read of Death of the Family did not connect with me at all but The Black Mirror was really good.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:12
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Death of the Family is kind of a mess outside of what Snyder wrote, and I'd actually rate Night of the Owls higher than it, but it totally nails the final issue and actually handles the eternal "Why doesn't Batman just kill the Joker" question without relying on "My code!" or "Because slippery slope!" with an answer that doesn't feel like a cop-out and actually feels earned. It's a really powerful finale. twistedmentat posted:Death of the Family is what got me to drop New 52 Batman. Did not like it at all. Death IN the Family I'd rate higher if the ending was an actual editorial decision rather than the result of polling. That was a glorified gimmick that didn't really determine the direction of the story at all. Editorial was angling for something with higher and more permanent stakes due to the insane success of KJ and since everyone hated Jason anyways, two and two. I mean we'll never know because of the toll line but from everything I've read around DitF editorial really really wanted to kill off Jason Todd. He was an albatross around Batman's neck at that point and Death was the first story of DC's that was really reactive to KJ's tone. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 19:18
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really "why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?" has never seemed like as much of a conundrum to me as "why doesn't the state kill the Joker?" like, even if it only ended up that way because Heath Ledger died, Christopher Nolan explaining the Joker's absence by saying he was tried and executed in between films was kinda refreshing.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:23
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A Dick Grayson Batman movie would require a movie to have Dick Grayson in it. The current direction of the DCCU doesn't really have room for him. I loved that time period in Batman though.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:27
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I think the difference between "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker" and "Why doesn't the state kill the Joker" is that one is a question constantly asked about and to Batman metatextually, and which he always answers with "My code!" (which feels like a copout) or "Because then I don't know where to stop!" (which implies that Batman has zero self-control and plays into that really dumb "Batman and Joker are two sides of the same coin" moral relativism argument that's awful). I don't care about why the government doesn't kill the Joker because that's never brought up in the comics so it never needs justification, but by having people directly ask Bruce all the time why he doesn't kill the Joker (and every answer he provided until Death of felt cheap or disingenuous in some way), when Death of the Family finally nailed an adequate reason as to why it feels like a payoff decades in the making.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:27
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Toxxupation posted:I think the difference between "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker" and "Why doesn't the state kill the Joker" is that one is a question constantly asked about and to Batman metatextually, and which he always answers with "My code!" (which feels like a copout) or "Because then I don't know where to stop!" (which implies that Batman has zero self-control and plays into that really dumb "Batman and Joker are two sides of the same coin" moral relativism argument that's awful). I don't care about why the government doesn't kill the Joker because that's never brought up in the comics so it never needs justification, but by having people directly ask Bruce all the time why he doesn't kill the Joker (and every answer he provided until Death of felt cheap or disingenuous in some way), when Death of the Family finally nailed an adequate reason as to why it feels like a payoff decades in the making. I mean, they do attempt to justify it in the comics frequently, just not in a way that makes sense (i.e. the insanity defense, which doesn't really play if someone has a super long history of calculated crimes) basically what I'm saying is I want a one-shot about the Joker's lawyer.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:30
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I always thought the reason Joker was never executed for his crimes was just that Gotham didn't have a death penalty, and the cops never kill Joker because the only time they're ever in a position to do that is when Batman is hand delivering Joker to them, and so Joker dying in police custody like that would be bad I guess. Joker's just such a font of poor writing and contrived bullshit that I wish DC would stop using him. His body count is too high for him to be able to survive ever being arrested, Batman comes across as an idiot and a sociopath for not being able to rationalize killing this one man responsible for the deaths of countless people, and it comes across as bizarre the corrupt city of Gotham has a police force so dedicated to the rules/law they never just summarily execute him. Like I totally understand the need for iconic recurring villains, but there should be limits on how evil those recurring villains can get before it just becomes stupid that everyone just kinda accepts that the Joker will just keep killing people forever and nobody can do anything about it. burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 19:38
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DrProsek posted:I always thought the reason Joker was never executed for his crimes was just that Gotham didn't have a death penalty, and the cops never kill Joker because the only time they're ever in a position to do that is when Batman is hand delivering Joker to them, and so Joker dying in police custody like that would be bad I guess. This would make slightly more sense than the insanity defense, but not much, because of how much of what the Joker does would surely constitute federal crimes. Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, but Dzokhar Tsarnaev still got sentenced to death. At the very least he'd be rotting in DCU Guantanamo or some CIA black site. I know, I know, it's comic books.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:40
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DrProsek posted:Batman comes across as an idiot and a sociopath for not being able to rationalize killing this one man responsible for the deaths of countless people Again, this is why I'd consider Death of the Family a top 10 Batman story, because it does so in a way that makes sense for Batman and feels honest both in-story and metatextually.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:45
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see, not wanting to become a murderer has never made Batman (or Spider-Man, or whoever) seem stupid to me; it makes him seem principled. I like that. what Batman should maybe work on though is making Arkham Asylum a little more escape-proof. again, this is another reason I love The Batman of Arkham. it presents a Batman who follows through and doesn't stop with just handing the bad guys over to the cops.
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Jun 11, 2016 19:52
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I admit the Joker thing isn't quite so bad when Bruce Wayne is treated more as an actual person with morals and an interest in criminal justice beyond "I PUNCH BAD GUY, BAD GUY GO TO JAILBOX, CRIME STOP!" I guess I'm mostly annoyed that it's something that rarely works and when it doesn't work (i.e. Batman's reasons come across as just "I can't because I suffer heavily from slippery slopes") it makes Batman come across as a total idiot and Joker having the shiniest, thickest set of plot armor.
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Jun 11, 2016 20:22
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Toxxupation posted:Again, this is why I'd consider Death of the Family a top 10 Batman story, because it does so in a way that makes sense for Batman and feels honest both in-story and metatextually. What's the reason exactly, you keep teasing it
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Jun 11, 2016 20:25
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DrProsek posted:I admit the Joker thing isn't quite so bad when Bruce Wayne is treated more as an actual person with morals and an interest in criminal justice beyond "I PUNCH BAD GUY, BAD GUY GO TO JAILBOX, CRIME STOP!" I guess I'm mostly annoyed that it's something that rarely works and when it doesn't work (i.e. Batman's reasons come across as just "I can't because I suffer heavily from slippery slopes") it makes Batman come across as a total idiot and Joker having the shiniest, thickest set of plot armor. It's interesting to compare it to Daredevil and Bullseye (or just Bullseye on his own, really), because Bullseye is a brutal, remorseless psychopath like the Joker who kills people for money, but half his appearances seem to end with him being quadrospazzed on a life-glug (or otherwise incapacitated) until such a time as the next writer who wants to use him comes up with a cure for him. With the Joker, it feels like it's a case of "back to Arkham" more often than not.
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Jun 11, 2016 20:43
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The animated series did this right by having the Joker seemingly get blown up, burned down, or eaten by a shark at the end of most of his stories. There's only a couple where he gets tossed back to Arkham. Usually he is done in by his own ego, or his mistreatment of others, giving him a non-permanent but still thematically satisfying comeuppance without forcing Batman to either become a killer or allow a killer to kill again. Batman also mitigates the damage done by the Joker's schemes; rather than simply reacting after Joker has blown up a policeman's ball or derailed a train, Batman will usually prevent these deaths from happening. Joker becomes a grand-standing blowhard, not an omnipotent, unstoppable juggalo. He's still very threatening on an individual level, but he's not committing war crimes, even if that's just because Batman always stops him. This has the added effect of making Batman look capable and convincing the audience that he does make life in this nightmarish hell-city bearable. The best way to answer "Why doesn't batman kill the joker" is to keep your audience from asking that question in the first place.
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Jun 11, 2016 20:59
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greatn posted:What's the reason exactly, you keep teasing it I'll post the panel because it's really good (spoilers for the end of Death of the Family, obviously):  I couldn't find it but there's another panel sometime during Death of the Family where Bruce makes it really clear that he could, if he wanted, just kill Joker and stop, that the reason he doesn't kill just the Joker is due to the above. I think it's a really clever solution to a decades-old conundrum, and I like it because it's Batman approaching it from a place of pragmatism over a place of principles, simply because DC has so thoroughly turned Joker into a reprehensible monster that the idea of "I don't kill", even if that's central to the Batman character, makes him come across as naive at best because of how much of a psychopath the Joker now is. Saying "I don't kill the Joker because it wouldn't actually solve anything" - and not philosophically speaking, literally so - works on both levels. It works in-fiction - I mean, Jason Todd died and came back as a mass-murdering sociopath, what would happen to Joker if he got placed in a Lazarus Pit. It also works on a metanarrative level - what would happen if the Joker got killed off? DC would just make someone even worse than the Joker, even more amoral and reprehensible than him. Or they'd bring him back like they brought back a whole bunch of characters. The Joker's death solves nothing when it comes to the creative direction of the Batman stories - the escalation would just get worse and worse and worse, without or without him. The devil you know. I also like it because it gives Bruce a fear, but instead of it being an actual character (like some people have argued re: The Joker - that he's the only person to scare The Batman) it's a concept - that for how monstrous The Joker is, he's actually holding back something even worse from being unleashed on Gotham due to his existence. And if you've been following the creative direction of DC for the last thirty-plus years, you know that Bruce is absolutely right in thinking so. For all his faults, and I agree that at this point The Joker is an albatross around DC's neck, the existence of him prevents an even worse enemy from appearing in Gotham as Batman's biggest possible bad.
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Jun 11, 2016 21:02
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I think Batman refusing to kill Joker because he's scared to is equal to if not worse than because he doesn't want to for moral reasons.
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Jun 11, 2016 21:31
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Knightfall's great as long as you stop reading one issue after Batman gets his back broken. Seeing Jean-Paul Valley go insane and take down Bane isn't all that thrilling, and I really don't think the rest of the Knightsaga is particularly worth reading, even if Knightsend's last few issues are really good. But the entire buildup of Bane and Batman's defeat is some really good stuff. SonicRulez posted:I think Batman refusing to kill Joker because he's scared to is equal to if not worse than because he doesn't want to for moral reasons. Personally I think Batman refuses to kill because he's a really messed up guy and is afraid of what he would become if he crossed that line. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 21:41
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Batman killed Joker in "JLA: The Nail", but I believe he came back in the sequel with demonic superhuman powers because the Demons Three thought it would be good sport.
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Jun 11, 2016 21:49
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X-O posted:I'm pretty sure I read that Freddie Prinze Jr said not long after his spinal surgery that he was done with acting (outside of voicing cartoons) because he didn't want to travel anymore and wanted to stay home with his family. He also said working with Kiefer Sutherland almost made him quit for good even earlier. This is from pages back but I had to make the comment... I'm surprised The Hulk going after him didn't push him into hiding in the first place... waka waka
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Jun 11, 2016 23:01
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Toxxupation posted:I'll post the panel because it's really good (spoilers for the end of Death of the Family, obviously): Has it ever been a thing that if Batman kills, the people he protects will lose their trust in him and he'll then be a force of legitimate terror for common people? Being a vigilante who kicks the poo poo out of people for doing crimes is one thing (and I guess troubling in its own way depending on how you look at it), but someone who passes judgment on and executes criminals is another. The average person then begins to worry if parking in front of a fire hydrant means Batman will come along and snap their neck. That I think would be the biggest argument against killing no matter how terrible the Joker's crimes have been, moreso than "I have a code" or "slippery slope."
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Jun 11, 2016 23:05
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I feel like that comes up a lot, yeah. Even just on the practical level of if he starts killing people, there goes all his law enforcement support.
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Jun 11, 2016 23:12
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No jury in the world would convict him for killing Joker. Except in Iran.
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Jun 11, 2016 23:37
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That's not his job. If people want Joker dead so bad they could just shoot him in the head any time he's prancing around in public explaining what he's poisoned. There's a reason this doesn't come up in Spider-man stories.
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Jun 11, 2016 23:43
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Killing the Joker is Magog's role. Actually, a Kingdom Come themed film would be pretty good, though the whole aspect of it being the optimism of the Golden/Silver Age eras vs the grimdark violent and edgy 90s would be lost.
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Jun 11, 2016 23:58
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twistedmentat posted:Killing the Joker is Magog's role. Considering how dark and lovely DC's movies have gotten, it could work
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Jun 12, 2016 00:04
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Given the current state of DC a kingdom come movie would have Magog desperately trying to save a villain from the Trinity, and a bunch of hopeful, optimistic new heroes changing public opinion
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Jun 12, 2016 00:08
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The two published movies have been pretty positive, though.
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Jun 12, 2016 00:27
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Magog would be in the League. He'd fit right in considering Superman is 2-1 on killing the poo poo out of his villains. On purpose. Bats and likely WW have body counts too. Lurdiak posted:There's a reason this doesn't come up in Spider-man stories. ...why? Why doesn't Spider-Man ever get this same nonsense?
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Jun 12, 2016 00:55
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Lurdiak posted:That's not his job. If people want Joker dead so bad they could just shoot him in the head any time he's prancing around in public explaining what he's poisoned. This seems disingenuous; if this court of the streets can cap joker whenever they want, why aren't they just stopping crime themselves?
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Jun 12, 2016 01:05
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I can totally forgive Wonder Woman killing people because she's from a culture of warriors were death is just a part of life. Well, death of their enemies. Aquaman also falls under this. I can also pass Green Lanterns because he's space cop and sometimes you have to take a life. Retro Futurist posted:Given the current state of DC a kingdom come movie would have Magog desperately trying to save a villain from the Trinity, and a bunch of hopeful, optimistic new heroes changing public opinion Yea, Magog and the rest of the new heroes in Kingdom Come would fit in perfectly in the grimdark DCCU.
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Jun 12, 2016 01:08
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Wonder Woman loves everything and everyone but sometimes the fire has to burn it down clean so life can continue.
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Jun 12, 2016 01:09
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SonicRulez posted:...why? Why doesn't Spider-Man ever get this same nonsense? Every Spider-Man villain except Carnage is about more than just racking up body counts. Usually they just want power, to get rich, and/or they really fuckin' hate Spidey. It's the reason why Carnage is seen as one of the worst villains and has to be used in small doses. But even then, Marvel's been able to use him in some good stories in recent years.
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Jun 12, 2016 01:18
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Clearly the solution is to transition into a Superior Batman run, where i don't know R'as al Ghul maybe (pits are failing and he needs a new path to immortality) swaps his mind into Bat's and starts killing and maiming the rogues gallery
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Jun 12, 2016 01:28
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SonicRulez posted:...why? Why doesn't Spider-Man ever get this same nonsense? Spider-man's villains don't kill hundreds and hundreds of people every time they escape, and the stories rarely feature them screaming at Spider-man to kill them as he looms over their broken bodies. Spider-man also isn't this perfectly in control master planner who single-handedly holds back crime in NYC and seems to have more of a say over what happens in it than the cops. He's just a dude who helps where he can.
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Jun 12, 2016 01:32
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Codependent Poster posted:Every Spider-Man villain except Carnage is about more than just racking up body counts. Usually they just want power, to get rich, and/or they really fuckin' hate Spidey. This is actually really obvious and I didn't think about it. Not a lot of Spidey's villains are really killers. Carnage, Goblin, Venom. Shocker and Rhino just wanna rob some banks. twistedmentat posted:I can totally forgive Wonder Woman killing people because she's from a culture of warriors were death is just a part of life. Well, death of their enemies. Aquaman also falls under this. I can also pass Green Lanterns because he's space cop and sometimes you have to take a life. I totally give a pass to Wonder Woman and the rest like I do for Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye. Soldiers kill in the line of duty. I think the good ones would prefer not to, but sometimes you have to. The fact that they do is what is supposed to make them different. That's actually why I really hate whenever cinematic Spidey takes off his mask or when a bunch of people learn his secret identity. It's supposed to define him in a way that makes him totally alien to the rest of modern day Marvel. Nobody questions Cap, he's Steve Rodgers. Iron Man is Tony Stark. Spider-Man is a MASKED MENACE!!!! And then vice versa in DC.
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Jun 12, 2016 01:36
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