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JcDent posted:Nobody remembers that Rainbow Six is the book where hippies and environmentalists try to kill the world via a virus they developed by testing it on hobos and kidnapped club girls. Made for a fun game, though.
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Jun 12, 2016 14:28
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aphid_licker posted:It annoys me how Clancy cops out of using WMD. There's this report on the effects of persistent chemical agents etc. and the GDR leadership goes whoa wait what we can't have that like this is the first time they've heard about this whole WMD thing. And the Russians go welp I guess we can't use those then. Isn't that the backstory for Fallout?
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Jun 12, 2016 14:37
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I think there's an ex-NVA (the east German one) officer who wrote a WWIII novel with NATO as the aggressor.
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Jun 12, 2016 14:45
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LLSix posted:Isn't that the backstory for Fallout? Nobody knows who started that war, you should be skepitcal because the first games manual is technically a product of Vault Tech so they might be biased as poo poo. gently caress the aliens did it thing from Fallout 3.
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Jun 12, 2016 14:50
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I thought the two original games established reasonably well what happened? There's a conventional conflict starting when the US annexed Canada, leading to China invading Alaska, escalating to power armoured US troops in Beijing, and at some point the Chinese launch their nukes followed by the US. I don't know how much the Bethesda games retconned it but it seems fairly plausible and unbiased to me.
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Jun 12, 2016 15:08
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Fangz posted:I thought the two original games established reasonably well what happened? There's a conventional conflict starting when the US annexed Canada, leading to China invading Alaska, escalating to power armoured US troops in Beijing, and at some point the Chinese launch their nukes followed by the US. Yeah the lead it up to it more or less like that. I think I read they aren't ever sure who ordered the first stike and well, I wouldn't trust anything Vault Tech puts out. Fanon wise, I'd like to believe that war was started by some dude drinking one of those awful purposely radiated sodas and spitting it out onto a warning system console shorting the thing.
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Jun 12, 2016 15:13
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I dunno what was more hilarious about Red Storm Rising, an attack on one oil refinery being enough to cripple the entire USSR or the soviets conquering Iceland with a single container ship.
Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 15:13
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I dunno what was more hilarious about Red Storm Rising, an attack on one oil refinery being enough to cripple the entire USSR or the soviets conquering Iceland with a single container ship. my favorite part of the container ship thing is when world in conflict decided to reuse that trick for the soviets to launch a mechanized invasion of the continental united states
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Jun 12, 2016 15:24
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Pornographic Memory posted:my favorite part of the container ship thing is when world in conflict decided to reuse that trick for the soviets to launch a mechanized invasion of the continental united states Act of War used it, too, this time for a secretive megacorp conglomerate to invade San Francisco. 
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Jun 12, 2016 16:25
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cheerfullydrab posted:
It's a bog standard trope in patriot fap fiction. Since you're writing for a crowd who gets a star-spangled boner thinking about the glories of America and it's freedom spreading Army you can't have the enemy be an actual existential threat. If the threat is so severe that the US stands a chance of being destroyed than that implies that the real US isn't overwhelmingly more powerful than the Russians, Chinese, or whoever your antagonists are. That's why the cowardly strike at soft targets works. You cause a lot of pain, but it's clear that the US will never actually succumb to it, and then they get to righteously stomp the poo poo out of the dirt farmers or communist losers who dared strike at them. Basically imagine the 9/11 => Afghanistan War sequence of events if Afghanistan turned out to be a quick, decisive thing that ended with a stable democracy taking power ca. 2003.
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Jun 12, 2016 16:49
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Nenonen posted:Ehh, that character is hardly representative of all muslims even for Tom Clancy... it's a long time since I read the book but it seemed pretty fair in its characterizations to me back then. Nebakenezzer posted:Yeah, this is my memory as well. The character is an extremist; and no point is this held up as the way all Muslims think. Did you all read that part I quoted from the guy's perspective? That's a depiction of a muslim who is straight out of a bad Jack Chick tract. I've spent way too long defending the shortest part of my "review", I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
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Jun 12, 2016 17:19
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cheerfullydrab posted:Did you all read that part I quoted from the guy's perspective? That's a depiction of a muslim who is straight out of a bad Jack Chick tract. Yes?? I see it as a depiction of the mindset of a gleeful murderer motivated by religion and nationalism. Exaggerated depiction perhaps, but I don't find it impossible that someone like Anders Breivik or the Orlando shooter would be going through similar thoughts as they were executing their innocent victims. But like you say, it's a matter of opinion and Clancy probably shouldn't have included people in his stories. Should have just written books about sentient boats and planes and sold the rights to Disney.
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Jun 12, 2016 17:34
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Nenonen posted:Yes?? I see it as a depiction of the mindset of a gleeful murderer motivated by religion and nationalism. Exaggerated depiction perhaps, but I don't find it impossible that someone like Anders Breivik or the Orlando shooter would be going through similar thoughts as they were executing their innocent victims. But like you say, it's a matter of opinion and Clancy probably shouldn't have included people in his stories. Should have just written books about sentient boats and planes and sold the rights to Disney. If those are the only muslim PoV characters in your book, you are implicitly stating that all muslims act and think that way. But that's what a clanky-style narrative is, Cyrano is right about it being "star spangled boner" territory
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Jun 12, 2016 17:46
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lenoon posted:Cyrano is right about it being "star spangled boner" territory 
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Jun 12, 2016 18:17
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lenoon posted:If those are the only muslim PoV characters in your book, you are implicitly stating that all muslims act and think that way. But that's what a clanky-style narrative is, Cyrano is right about it being "star spangled boner" territory This is a ridiculous way to criticize literature. If the villain was a Greek atheist then would the author need to include the views of a nice Greek atheist to balance things even when the novel has very little to do with Greece or atheism? Fine, whatever.
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Jun 12, 2016 18:19
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lenoon posted:If those are the only muslim PoV characters in your book, you are implicitly stating that all muslims act and think that way. But that's what a clanky-style narrative is, Cyrano is right about it being "star spangled boner" territory Wait, what? If you have a Muslim character in a book who does something nasty and in his mind is inspired to by his religion, you have to have Ahmad stand up in the next chapter and say "I sure don't agree with the motivations of the dead guy whose thoughts I can't possibly know"?
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Jun 12, 2016 18:20
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It's hard to quantify since no Clancy character has any sort of depth
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Jun 12, 2016 19:02
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StashAugustine posted:It's hard to quantify since no Clancy character has any sort of depth Just enough depth to inflict hydrostatic shock on them.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:21
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aphid_licker posted:Is there a Cold War Gone Hot novel where NATO is the aggressor? Resurrection Day is an alt-hist account of the aftermath of a nuclear exchange at the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US eats missiles in several major cities while we plaster everything of worth in the USSR and render it basically uninhabitable after a three day war. The armies of both countries play minimal roles at best and SAC (and air force guys in general) can't leave the country for fear of prosecution by international tribunal. The book's okay but I feel like the author's trying to do some typical sci-fi libertarian preaching in a few passages.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:29
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I actually started reading him again after his long post 2000 Ryanverse hiatus with ‘Dead or Alive in 2010. I couldn’t believe how terrible it was. Courtesy spoiler, but honestly I wouldn’t worry about it. You don’t want to read this book. The quality of writing had fallen of a cliff. Probably because it was co-written by Grant Blackwood (I assume this means he wrote 90% of it), whose name appears in letters so small you’d be forgiven for not noticing it. Which is probably the idea. The real weirdness came from the world-building. Everthing that happened in the previous books seems to have happened, along with the actual real world 9/11 attack and subsequent invasion of Iraq and Afganistan. So 100,000 people vaporised at a Superbowl, attempted biowarfare attack and subsequent crushing of already combined Iran/Iraq caliphate, wars with Japan and China. All happened, while simultaneously our actual world history plays out. And of course 9/11 is the only one anyone seems concerned about, it’s baffling. Senator “Ted” Kennedy-expy (Ed Kealty),is apparently the democratic president, and is portrayed exactly as straw-man liberal as you’d expect. Honestly it’s cartoonish, Anne Coulter would have toned it down if she’d written this guy. Ryan resigned in his first elected term, so his black VP (remember his best friend the navy pilot/later Admiral)could become president,only to be murdered shortly thereafter offscreen before the book starts?!? So Ryan, who naturally is beloved by real Americans as the greatest and bestest president of all time decides to run again on a platform that curiously mirrors Tom Clancys beliefs circa 2010. After all Americans love a quitter, just ask President Palin. My personal favourite however is the Presidential Pardons. The super secret group set up by Ryan before he resigned, is both around the globe and domestically murdering people , torturing prisoners, systematically stealing state secrets (via super-hacking obviously),amongst many other crimes. But it’s all good. You see before he resigned a few years ago. He drew up a 100 pre-signed blank presidential pardons. All they have to do if they are caught is fill in the blanks and they are golden. These pardons for crimes committed years after the president in question no longer has any authority to issue them are legally airtight. You can literally dance around in front of prosecutors singing “Nyah, Nyah,Nyah”. In fact you can punch one in the face, quickly write in “Face punching is copacetic” in a space at the bottom you left blank for precisely this contingency, and there is nothing they can do but throw their hats on the floor and impotently jump up and down on them. I hardly need add they are planning to use these if they are caught comitting crimes overseas as well.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:45
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Nenonen posted:Ehh, that character is hardly representative of all muslims even for Tom Clancy... it's a long time since I read the book but it seemed pretty fair in its characterizations to me back then. I don't think that character is representative of anyone anywhere. When terrorists in real life survive and get interrogated, you hear the same story over and over-- "why should all the deviants and scumbags get to live a good life while GOOD people like ME are dying to YOUR predator drones, can't you see that i'm the real victim here  as i walk around murdering helpless people" Treating them as the Islamic Terminator is simultaneously giving them too much credit for not just being angry, pathetic assholes, and consigning the question of how they came to be that way into some inscrutable cultural mystery.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:47
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty. That's not the same thing as First Sea Lord. From reading Caste of Steels it doesn't seem like Churchill really understood that when he issued orders directly to Admirals and Captains in their ships. However, from what I understand Churchill didn't try to micromanage at all during WW2 and left it to the professionals and didn't actually go through with any of his idiotic plans. Was it Gallipolli and the political isolation that followed that made him realize that war should be left to the professionals?
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Jun 12, 2016 19:53
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swamp waste posted:I don't think that character is representative of anyone anywhere. When terrorists in real life survive and get interrogated, you hear the same story over and over-- "why should all the deviants and scumbags get to live a good life while GOOD people like ME are dying to YOUR predator drones, can't you see that i'm the real victim here This is what I was trying to say. It's an anti-muslim caricature.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:03
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I liked the descriptions of the operators and training in rainbow six but the ecoterrorist shtick was ridiculous even to me as a 15 year old big l libertarian
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Jun 12, 2016 20:06
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Nenonen posted:This is a ridiculous way to criticize literature. If the villain was a Greek atheist then would the author need to include the views of a nice Greek atheist to balance things even when the novel has very little to do with Greece or atheism? Fine, whatever. But the novel has everything to do with violence? This is how propaganda works, right? It's how antagonists work in badly written war porn; Im not criticising Clancy for being a hack who writes poo poo, I'm saying this is a common literary technique to produce a clear enemy and uncomplicated narrative. It's not even just literary - why do you think one of the main solutions to islamophobia is getting to know a Muslim person? It's how the brain works - you generalise from the specific instance. Give one specific example of X and all other instances of X take on its characteristics.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:22
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cheerfullydrab posted:This is what I was trying to say. It's an anti-muslim caricature. No, it's an anti-murderer caricature.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:23
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SeanBeansShako posted:Yeah the lead it up to it more or less like that. I think I read they aren't ever sure who ordered the first stike and well, I wouldn't trust anything Vault Tech puts out. I remember from Fallout 2 the US President confirming nobody knows who fired the first shot. Could be propaganda but the guy was happy to tell you how he was going to genocide everyone on the planet except for his enclave so I can't understand why he'd lie
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Jun 12, 2016 20:29
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bewbies posted:I liked the descriptions of the operators and training in rainbow six but the ecoterrorist shtick was ridiculous even to me as a 15 year old big l libertarian Don't forget those ridiculous heartbeat sensors! (That also showed up in Modern Warfare 2 for some reason)
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Jun 12, 2016 20:36
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Nenonen posted:No, it's an anti-murderer caricature. Would you say Clancy presents killing as a clear and present danger to our society
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Jun 12, 2016 20:36
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Nebakenezzer posted:I remember from Fallout 2 the US President confirming nobody knows who fired the first shot. Could be propaganda but the guy was happy to tell you how he was going to genocide everyone on the planet except for his enclave so I can't understand why he'd lie It's kind of funny, neutral facts and sources are hard to find in a world not ruined by the apocalypse in with some things. Also, man we're getting crazy off topic now. How is the progress towards the next Taiping war related post going?
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Jun 12, 2016 20:38
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bewbies posted:I liked the descriptions of the operators and training in rainbow six but the ecoterrorist shtick was ridiculous even to me as a 15 year old big l libertarian Funny thing is, I read it as a megacorp being the bad guy. Because they were. A megacorp is how they had the resources to pull off the entire thing.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:40
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lenoon posted:But the novel has everything to do with violence? This is how propaganda works, right? It's how antagonists work in badly written war porn; The book's not about a war with muslims, so the general gist of your points notwithstanding (nor Clancy's one-dimensional hackery), I don't really see the specific issue here.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:07
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Lord Tywin posted:From reading Caste of Steels it doesn't seem like Churchill really understood that when he issued orders directly to Admirals and Captains in their ships. However, from what I understand Churchill didn't try to micromanage at all during WW2 and left it to the professionals and didn't actually go through with any of his idiotic plans. Was it Gallipolli and the political isolation that followed that made him realize that war should be left to the professionals? Either he learned to ease off a bit or the professionals learned how to detour his poo poo better. Or both. You can choose any point on that spectrum and you'll find a willing audience to believe it. What was the actual truth? Damned if I know. In other news, I'm actually getting published at some point in the future. Yay me! Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 21:24
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Either he learned to ease off a bit or the professionals learned how to detour his poo poo better. Or both. You can choose any point on that spectrum and you'll find a willing audience to believe it. nice! grats!
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Jun 12, 2016 21:39
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Lord Tywin posted:From reading Caste of Steels it doesn't seem like Churchill really understood that when he issued orders directly to Admirals and Captains in their ships. However, from what I understand Churchill didn't try to micromanage at all during WW2 and left it to the professionals and didn't actually go through with any of his idiotic plans. Was it Gallipolli and the political isolation that followed that made him realize that war should be left to the professionals? I believe Alan Brookes war diaries contain a lot of seperate "Spent most of today talking down Churchill from his latest Gallipoli 2.0 " entries.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:42
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Churchill tried to micromanage like crazy. Fortunately Alan Brooke was an exceptionally capable Chief of the General Staff who was able stare him down over all his bad ideas. Churchill, Hitler, and Stalin were all armchair generals with intense personalities used to getting their own way. Churchill had a political system that made it possible for people to block him if he strayed outside of his brief as PM. Stalin wanted to win and his desire to control everything fluctuated in proportion to how likely it looked like the USSR was going to lose the war. Hitler purged any and all resistance to his whims.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:47
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Alchenar posted:Churchill tried to micromanage like crazy. Fortunately Alan Brooke was an exceptionally capable Chief of the General Staff who was able stare him down over all his bad ideas. Hitler entered a nasty cycle where things would go bad -> he'd blame his generals, and often either sack them and replace them with more optimistic men, or just begin managing battles himself. And of course, as things went worse for the Germans, he was taking on more personal responsibility. Stalin is kind of odd, in that he seems hyper involved in the day to day management of the war, but at some point learned to trust his generals. (Easy to do, I guess, when you got a guy like Zhukov working for you.) The British managed some appallingly bad ideas, but I don't know how much to blame specifically on Churchill. FDR is really the outlier here, because [unless you can give an example] he let his military staff do their jobs with very little interference from himself.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:59
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Obdicut posted:Cavalry question: I've heard it asserted that the Hakkapeliitta, Finnish light cavalry, didn't actually exist and weren't actually used by Gustavus Adolphus. Is there any truth to either their existence or their definite disproof? I don't think there's a consensus either way, OP, but hopefully a goon friend can answer 
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Jun 13, 2016 00:38
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SeanBeansShako posted:Nobody knows who started that war, you should be skepitcal because the first games manual is technically a product of Vault Tech so they might be biased as poo poo. I am pretty sure even Bethesda is ignoring that plot point now
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Jun 13, 2016 00:47
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365 Nog Hogger posted:I don't think there's a consensus either way, OP, but hopefully a goon friend can answer Well, that is not a simple matter. The Finnish cavalry of the Swedish forces was kinda badly equipped, notoriously lacking in the pistol department especially. The were, to my understanding, rather prone to charging due to this, at least in part. The thing is that the slogan that gives them their name "Hakkaa päälle!" (means pretty much "at 'em!" or "hack 'em down!") is a really decent warcry on its own, easy to chant and sounds rather badass in Finnish. Did the Swedes have Finnish-speaking cavalry troopers shouting that at the charge? That's very much possible. Did they have a cavalry formation called "Hakkapeliitta"? Maybe not. That the Hakkapeliittas formed a substantial part of the Swedish cavalry is most likely a later, nationalistic invention, but at least several cavalry regiments were raised in the Finnish-speaking areas and some of them did certainly see service in Germany.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:53
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