Popular Thug Drink posted:what do those religions actually say about gay people. enlighten us, please Sodom and Gomorrah was about gay people and definitely not about the mob that was going to kill the gay people.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:27
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e: this should go in another thread.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:27
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SpaceCadetBob posted:FBI and ATF just gave a presser.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:28
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Popular Thug Drink posted:what do those religions actually say about gay people. enlighten us, please That it's a sin. But they also say not to kill them, which is why we don't call the PP shooter a "christian terrorist" or ISIS "radical islamic terrorists." Because when they go kill people they are not following their religion
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Jun 12, 2016 20:30
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SpaceCadetBob posted:FBI and ATF just gave a presser. I've always wondered what these gun sellers (gun stores or otherwise) feel about knowing that they sold a gun to a terrorist. Like isn't there at least a modicum of self-doubt in at least some of them? Like if the seller scanned this dude's card and found that he openly supported ISIS he wouldn't have sold it to him. I'm really struggling to comprehend this part right now without going into "haha gun sellers are all NRA nutjobs no one cares" hyperbole.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:31
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Does "purchased directly" mean "legally"? Correct. The FBI had no ability to restrict his ownership of any kind of legal arm.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:31
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^  SpiderHyphenMan posted:Does "purchased directly" mean "legally"? If they are purchased in a way that ATF can verify, especially after less than 12 hours, then it was a legal transaction. To expand on this point, Tracing by the ATF ceases at the first retail point of purchase, there's some limited ability to further scrutinize distribution for guns used in crimes, but it would take a whole lot more legwork than a Sunday's morning. Gunshow Poophole fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 20:31
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Bloody Pancreas posted:I've always wondered what these gun sellers (gun stores or otherwise) feel about knowing that they sold a gun to a terrorist. Like isn't there at least a modicum of self-doubt in at least some of them? Like if the seller scanned this dude's card and found that he openly supported ISIS he wouldn't have sold it to him. I'm really struggling to comprehend this part right now without going into "haha gun sellers are all NRA nutjobs no one cares" hyperbole. i imagine that if you're a gun seller you understand that a large portion of the people who buy guns buy them with the explicit intent of using them on people at some point
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Jun 12, 2016 20:32
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Bloody Pancreas posted:I've always wondered what these gun sellers (gun stores or otherwise) feel about knowing that they sold a gun to a terrorist. Like isn't there at least a modicum of self-doubt in at least some of them? Like if the seller scanned this dude's card and found that he openly supported ISIS he wouldn't have sold it to him. I'm really struggling to comprehend this part right now without going into "haha gun sellers are all NRA nutjobs no one cares" hyperbole. Couldn't have known, just the cost of doing business 
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Jun 12, 2016 20:32
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blue squares posted:That it's a sin. But they also say not to kill them, which is why we don't call the PP shooter a "christian terrorist" or ISIS "radical islamic terrorists." Because when they go kill people they are not following their religion When scripture (Christianity and the Bible, in the case of my post since it is what I'm most familiar with) says to stone your son for being lazy, you can bet that it will also be interpreted you should do the same for people being gay, and you could definitely point to passages that say you were going with your religion.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:32
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TBeats posted:When scripture (Christianity, in this case) says to stone your son for being lazy, you can bet that it will also be interpreted you should do the same for people being gay, and you could definitely point to passages that say you were going with your religion. I don't think the transitive property applies to holy works but I haven't taken Partial Divinity Equations in a while.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:men murder far more people than muslims, misandry is a rational belief I agree.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:34
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Bloody Pancreas posted:I've always wondered what these gun sellers (gun stores or otherwise) feel about knowing that they sold a gun to a terrorist. Like isn't there at least a modicum of self-doubt in at least some of them? Like if the seller scanned this dude's card and found that he openly supported ISIS he wouldn't have sold it to him. I'm really struggling to comprehend this part right now without going into "haha gun sellers are all NRA nutjobs no one cares" hyperbole. Some might, but there's gun stores that are conveniently near major population centers, but not so close as to be subject to the gun laws of them, that certainly do not give a poo poo about the intended purpose of the weapons they sell.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:34
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TBeats posted:When scripture (Christianity and the Bible, in the case of my post since it is what I'm most familiar with) says to stone your son for being lazy, you can bet that it will also be interpreted you should do the same for people being gay, and you could definitely point to passages that say you were going with your religion. yeah the bible also says "thou shalt not kill" so basically anyone can blame religion for anything in a really lazy way the koran says "do not kill people unless it's like a legal execution because people are sacred" so
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Jun 12, 2016 20:35
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blue squares posted:That it's a sin. But they also say not to kill them, which is why we don't call the PP shooter a "christian terrorist" or ISIS "radical islamic terrorists." Because when they go kill people they are not following their religion Christianity says not to kill sinners, though the Old Testament saying to do so is still held up as an example by bad people who call themselves Christian because it's a convenient excuse. Unfortunately the Quran and hadith don't have the benefit of being followed by a second part like the Old Testament was (there's ijtihad, so Islam can still evolve to some extent, but it's still stuck with the original text in a way Christianity isn't), so Muhammad, Abu Bakr and Ali sentencing gay people to death is possibly harder to move beyond.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:35
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Bloody Pancreas posted:I've always wondered what these gun sellers (gun stores or otherwise) feel about knowing that they sold a gun to a terrorist. Like isn't there at least a modicum of self-doubt in at least some of them? Like if the seller scanned this dude's card and found that he openly supported ISIS he wouldn't have sold it to him. I'm really struggling to comprehend this part right now without going into "haha gun sellers are all NRA nutjobs no one cares" hyperbole. There has to be some kind of deal you make with your self if you're in that business. Like, even if the overwhelming majority of guns you sell are for hunters and home protection you have to understand just 1 out of 100, maybe 1 out of 1000, of the guns you personally sell will be used to murder someone. Or some kid will pick it up because their parents were careless assholes. Or some paranoid loon will kill their kid when they come home late or some stranger who knocks on the door after dark. I assume that if you're someone who will be bothered by that then you either get out of the business and go sell something less dangerous or you make some kind of deluded self rationalization you need to survive. And otherwise you just don't think about it and don't care because you're just not the kind of person who gives a poo poo.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:35
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STAC Goat posted:There has to be some kind of deal you make with your self if you're in that business. Like, even if the overwhelming majority of guns you sell are for hunters and home protection you have to understand just 1 out of 100, maybe 1 out of 1000, of the guns you personally sell will be used to murder someone. Or some kid will pick it up because their parents were careless assholes. Or some paranoid loon will kill their kid when they come home late or some stranger who knocks on the door after dark. Well there's also the fact that in a large part of the country the legal stricture against buying a firearm is "has a pulse". Background checks aren't even universal. Which is fine because heck the dealer or seller is just conducting business for all he cares. And yeah I imagine you wouldn't go into the business without that inkling in the back of your head not bothering you one whit.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:36
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Sinteres posted:Christianity says not to kill sinners, though the Old Testament saying to do so is still held up as an example by bad people who call themselves Christian because it's a convenient excuse. Unfortunately the Quran and hadith don't have the benefit of being followed by a second part like the Old Testament was (there's ijtihad, so Islam can still evolve to some extent, but it's still stuck with the original text in a way Christianity isn't), so Muhammad, Abu Bakr and Ali sentencing gay people to death is possibly harder to move beyond. both the bible and the koran say straight up "do not kill people that is bad"
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Jun 12, 2016 20:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:both the bible and the koran say straight up "do not kill people that is bad" Oh word? Case closed.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:37
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In case you've become desensitized to mass shootings this poor woman waiting to hear about her son will fix that for you: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/12/devastating_abc_clip_of_christine_leinonen_waiting_to_hear_about_her_son.html Sidenote: I don't love that ABC bothered this lady in the first place. Feels exploitative.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:38
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Sinteres posted:Oh word? Case closed. So as a Jew where do I rank, we also don't have 'a second part'
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Jun 12, 2016 20:38
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Sinteres posted:Oh word? Case closed. it's almost like religions are really contradictory and saying "religion is to blame" is just as stupid as saying "religion compels me to murder", and really the whole argument is a super halfassed pseudointellectal way to justify being angry that other people have religious opinions
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Jun 12, 2016 20:39
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i imagine that if you're a gun seller you understand that a large portion of the people who buy guns buy them with the explicit intent of using them on people at some point Yeah but that feels like a bit of an oversimplification. I know gun sellers know guns are for killing, but there's a spoken and unspoken standard that guns sold will be used to either defend yourself/loved ones, ward off threats, hunt animals or shoot at ranges. The FBI has likely already contacted the seller, so he has to know that his selling the gun directly lead to the deaths of over 50 people. I imagine that, if interviewed, the gun seller would say something like "selling this gun was within my right, if anyone in the club had a gun too, etc." to avoid guilt. I just can't get over this diffusion of responsibility from the gun industry considering that, for all intents and purposes, they are essentially the enablers of all these massacres and mass shootings.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:39
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Sinteres posted:Oh word? Case closed. It's almost as if holy texts are a poor measure of the individual follower's moral compass. Huh. Maybe quoting the Koran or Bible as proof of how immoral some group is might not be the best idea.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:39
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The runner up and preferred Republican candidate of millions this year spoke in favor of a preacher who loudly and frequently proclaims that all homosexuals should be horribly murdered. The candidate was joined by other candidates in endorsing this preacher while on the campaign trail at a big public event the preacher holds. Yeah, the Bible absolutely says it's okay to murder gays for their own sake depending on who you ask, and a HUGE amount of Christian Americans emphatically want this to be the case, and it's a little naive to say otherwise
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Jun 12, 2016 20:39
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Reuters is reporting that ISIS has claimed responsibility for the shooting, but the article doesn't have any details.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:43
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Epic High Five posted:The runner up and preferred Republican candidate of millions this year spoke in favor of a preacher who loudly and frequently proclaims that all homosexuals should be horribly murdered. The candidate was joined by other candidates in endorsing this preacher while on the campaign trail at a big public event the preacher holds. Huge amount wanting to kill gays is a bit of an overstatement. Polling of US Christians show the majority support accepting homosexuals openly in society. So of the minority that don't, only a small minority of those actually want to kill the gays (rather than pray the gay away or hide in shame or whatever). Of course it only takes one murderous person but most Christians are at least "ok with the gay"
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Jun 12, 2016 20:44
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Tatum Girlparts posted:So as a Jew where do I rank, we also don't have 'a second part' Rabbinical law seems to have done a pretty good job I guess, but I don't know as much about it. There are obviously hard-line Jewish people out there, but most American Jews are very socially liberal and accepting of the gay community in practice. Popular Thug Drink posted:it's almost like religions are really contradictory and saying "religion is to blame" is just as stupid as saying "religion compels me to murder", and really the whole argument is a super halfassed pseudointellectal way to justify being angry that other people have religious opinions Religion seems to be the foundation or at least excuse for most anti-gay bigotry, yes. I'm not saying purge Christians or purge Muslims at all, I'm saying purge the idea that those religions can excuse holding barbaric views about gay people in 21st Century America. I definitely think the Christian community is still in the process of getting there, but when hateful views emerge in that community it's trumpeted by liberals as evil, whereas it's swept under the rug if they emerge from minority communities.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:44
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Weird how no one remembers how we used to attribute all attacks to al-Qaeda after 9/11 by default.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:45
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FourLeaf posted:Reuters is reporting that ISIS has claimed responsibility for the shooting, but the article doesn't have any details. ISIS claims the responsibility for every person with a ME sounding name that does something. I'm pretty sure it's just strategy at this point.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:46
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ufarn posted:Weird how no one remembers how we used to attribute all attacks to al-Qaeda after 9/11 by default. We continued doing so until the moment ISIS became a thing, and now we use them instead.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:46
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homophobic straight man murders gay people; country freaks out about islam
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Jun 12, 2016 20:46
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FourLeaf posted:Reuters is reporting that ISIS has claimed responsibility for the shooting, but the article doesn't have any details. CBSN was reading the tweet on air and it was a bit convoluted. To me it sounded more like they were claiming him as a proud ISIS fighter, as opposed to claiming that there was central planning specifically for this attack. So this could still be a case of inspired as opposed to directed. OTOH CBSN also stated that there are records of the shooter traveling internationally so I guess we will just have to wait for the next news dump.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:47
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FourLeaf posted:Reuters is reporting that ISIS has claimed responsibility for the shooting, but the article doesn't have any details. well yeah, isis has been encouraging lone wolf attacks in the us since day one and so long as one of them gives isis a shoutout before they start shooting then isis can say "yeah we did that, us, we encouraged that guy"
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Jun 12, 2016 20:47
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Bloody Pancreas posted:Yeah but that feels like a bit of an oversimplification. I know gun sellers know guns are for killing, but there's a spoken and unspoken standard that guns sold will be used to either defend yourself/loved ones, ward off threats, hunt animals or shoot at ranges. The FBI has likely already contacted the seller, so he has to know that his selling the gun directly lead to the deaths of over 50 people. I imagine that, if interviewed, the gun seller would say something like "selling this gun was within my right, if anyone in the club had a gun too, etc." to avoid guilt. I just can't get over this diffusion of responsibility from the gun industry considering that, for all intents and purposes, they are essentially the enablers of all these massacres and mass shootings. You aren't the one pulling the trigger, though, so I doubt it's really all that hard to sleep at night. Have you ever sold a car to anybody? Would you feel responsible if he used it for drunk driving?
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Jun 12, 2016 20:47
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Snowman Crossing posted:You aren't the one pulling the trigger, though, so I doubt it's really all that hard to sleep at night. Have you ever sold a car to anybody? Would you feel responsible if he used it for drunk driving? cars are not made for killing, hope this helps
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Jun 12, 2016 20:48
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https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/742057466226192384 Read the thread, she makes great infoposts about ISIS
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Jun 12, 2016 20:48
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Jeeze another dude who 'doesn't know much' about Jews not willing to totally commit to us being evil homophobes? Wow where did you study Islam so in depth to have so much more understanding of that faith to be secure in calling them backwards savages?
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Jun 12, 2016 20:50
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Tatum Girlparts posted:So as a Jew where do I rank, we also don't have 'a second part' Well unless you're weird and don't think Moses is a thing then I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be killing people either 
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Jun 12, 2016 20:50
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Sinteres posted:Religion seems to be the foundation or at least excuse for most anti-gay bigotry, yes. I'm not saying purge Christians or purge Muslims at all, I'm saying purge the idea that those religions can excuse holding barbaric views about gay people in 21st Century America. I definitely think the Christian community is still in the process of getting there, but when hateful views emerge in that community it's trumpeted by liberals as evil, whereas it's swept under the rug if they emerge from minority communities. the majority of humans on the planet are religious so you could also say religion is the foundation for most music before a hundred years ago, and a ton of food, and a lot of literature, etc. it's easy as heck to take all the bad and scary things that humans do, and all the bad ideas they have, and attribute them to religion so you can argue "hey if we just kill religion we also kill the evil inside of humans" but that isn't how it works. you also can't say "hey if we just got rid of liberals etc." like it's pretty transparent you don't have an actual argument here you're just looking to construct a framework that allows you to feel intellectually justified in bitching about liberals and muslims but really you're just dropping a more eloquent version of th esame stuff we hear from jim bob trumpvoter and it's so obvious bro
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Jun 12, 2016 20:50
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