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bobkatt013 posted:So she was bad for most of her career? As a superhero? Totally. By "bad" I mean that's she's practically nonexistent and a charisma-less void in comparison to bad superheroes like, say, Red Hood or Hal Jordan or N52 Starfire, who are just total pricks. I think Stephanie Brown, on-again/off-again girlfriend of Tim Drake who's the daughter of a super-criminal trying to redeem her tarnished family legacy, she makes a good counterpoint to Tim. Their personalities mesh in a way that their romance makes sense. It's just the instant she puts on her totally generic costume she fades totally and completely into the background. Spoiler is a hero that just doesn't work. She seems to have no direction or distinguishing features, down to her costume being a ninja outfit with a hood and her totally nonsensical name. She's ostensibly a part of the Bat-Family but often gets called up to help behind people like Black Canary or Huntress. As aforementioned Bluebird was recently introduced and already a more compelling character then Spoiler. I feel like she needs a ground-up redesign as a superhero. New costume, new abilities- I'd probably make her more of a detective-type hero, which would lean even more heavily into "Tim Drake but a girl", but on the other hand there are no women in the Bat-Family who really serve that role currently. If you view Batman as the model which his extended family takes bits or pieces of- his amazing deductive skills and fighting prowess and technological capabilities and endless budget and so on - we haven't really had a female Bat-character who's really good at the detective stuff, which Spoiler could fill. I dunno. She just needs a change, and fast, because man is Stephanie Brown wasted in that go-nowhere role.
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Jun 12, 2016 07:22
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Teenage Fansub posted:We've only seen two of the old man JSAers and just in the last month or so. No reason to not expect him to pop up. I want the JSA back so bad. It was one of the biggest losses in the New 52. X-O posted:No, I almost assuredly read it. Superman is one of those characters like Spider-Man or Captain America where I weathered through all the stuff I didn't necessarily care for just because I love the characters so much. I didn't really stop with Superman until early in the New 52. Just sometimes I kind of forget about them quickly if the stories aren't doing it for me. And Legion stuff never clicked for me. Ah sorry. Misread your post and thought you didn't read it.
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Jun 12, 2016 08:19
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X-O posted:I always say that Flash was the only Geoff Johns I really liked but that's because I always forget that he wrote good short run on Adventure Comics and about his Teen Titans and JSA stuff which I also enjoyed for the most part. The problem is I just never really identified him with those characters like I did with Flash or Green Lantern or some of the more terrible crossovers and events he's been responsible for. I know he did some work on Superman as well that I liked, did he work on New Krypton? I really liked that storyline. For some reason I always give James Robinson the credit for that one. I know he wrote the Superman Secret Origin book which I did not like. Did you not like 52 or do you just attribute its quality to everyone else?
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Jun 12, 2016 13:21
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Counterpoint: Stephanie Brown is, actually, the best. In her first appearance she hits Tim Drake with a brick. Her being not particularly good at being a superhero is kind of her whole deal - she's from a hard-luck, single parent family, no special training before she puts on the hood, she can't afford grappling guns or kevlar suits. Everyone puts her down, nobody takes her seriously, but she doesn't give up. She's the most unrelentingly positive member of the entire squad. She doesn't care that the entire world has written her off already, she's going to pick herself up and keep trying, again and again and again if she needs to. No matter how many times Tim or Bruce or anybody tell her to knock it off, she's going to be back out there helping people, because she wants to, and she can. She eventually integrates herself into the Bat-family because she's simply too tenacious for them to keep her out, and once she does get access to their training and money and gadgets, she's even better at it than they expected.   (Pictured: Stephanie trying to keep up with Cass, getting absolutely destroyed, and coming back for more.) Spoiler is an even better name now, in the internet era, because she can post on her blog "Spoiler Warning" and yell "Spoiler alert!" before she hits a guy. It's delightfully cheesy and the exact thing a teenage vigilante would do in 2016. Her costume is also miles better than the weird alien mask thing she had in the old DCU. Spoiler rules.
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Jun 12, 2016 14:49
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Toxxupation posted:Spoiler is such an atrociously bad superhero, which sucks considering how good of a character Stephanie Brown is (and how she's the only love interest of Tim Drake's I actually loving buy as a love interest). What about Jubilee?
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Jun 12, 2016 15:30
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Toxxupation posted:Spoiler is a hero that just doesn't work. She seems to have no direction or distinguishing features, down to her costume being a ninja outfit with a hood and her totally nonsensical name. She's ostensibly a part of the Bat-Family but often gets called up to help behind people like Black Canary or Huntress. As aforementioned Bluebird was recently introduced and already a more compelling character then Spoiler. What's so nonsensical about her name? 
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Jun 12, 2016 16:09
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I like how angry injustice superman is just regular rear end superman to everyone now.
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Jun 12, 2016 16:28
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The new Flash artist should be pretty good for deadlines. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/06/12/carmine-di-giandomenico-finishes-56-pages-of-oudeis-in-43-hours/
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Jun 12, 2016 17:30
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Teenage Fansub posted:The new Flash artist should be pretty good for deadlines. You know for some reason I was thinking the bi-monthly releases would have alternating artists. How long until a Rebirth title is delayed?
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Jun 12, 2016 19:12
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Toxxupation posted:As a superhero? Totally. By "bad" I mean that's she's practically nonexistent and a charisma-less void in comparison to bad superheroes like, say, Red Hood or Hal Jordan or N52 Starfire, who are just total pricks. I think Stephanie Brown, on-again/off-again girlfriend of Tim Drake who's the daughter of a super-criminal trying to redeem her tarnished family legacy, she makes a good counterpoint to Tim. Their personalities mesh in a way that their romance makes sense. It's just the instant she puts on her totally generic costume she fades totally and completely into the background. Her current costume IS the redesign. It's much less cartoony than the original and takes elements from the well-received pre-N52 run where she was Batgirl (which, add to your gigantic convoluted list, because it's exactly the stuff you like. It's like a DC version of, say, Silk)
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Jun 12, 2016 19:15
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Mr Hootington posted:You know for some reason I was thinking the bi-monthly releases would have alternating artists. How long until a Rebirth title is delayed? They are. Check the OP.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:15
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So finally having finished volume 2 of Batman, Inc I finally finished Grant Morrison's Batman run in its entirety. Batman and Son-Black Glove-R.I.P. was Morrison's strongest work. Especially R.I.P., still in my opinion the absolute best Batman Story I've read (over Year One). I feel like everything after was distinctly lesser. Final Crisis was a confusing mess that really is absolutely necessary so the rest of the run makes any real sense whatsoever. That Time and the Batman mini-arc from Batman 700 to 702 needed to happen earlier or during FC or something because it provides crucial context for what happened in FC and the eventual climax in Batman, Inc volume 2. Batman and Robin was probably the best stuff to happen after the trilogy of Batman and Son-Black Glove-R.I.P. stories, simply because the dynamic between Dick and Damian was just that good. Return of Bruce Wayne is a confusing as hell mini that feels like it relies entirely on its (really good) finale to work, because as a story by itself it feels fairly superfluous. I guess my biggest problem with all the post-R.I.P. stuff is that it deals most directly with all the mystical stuff in the Batman mythos, which I always felt was the least interesting aspect of the character. Anyways after that we got both volumes of Batman, Incorporated, neither of which I really liked. I liked the initiating arc of Batman, Inc with the Batman of Japan but the Leviathan stuff felt forced and really out of place, the tone felt all over the place, the Batwoman stuff felt confusing and pointless. All the british superhero stuff outside of Knight and Squire felt really forced. It also ended really abruptly and felt like a story that just concluded out of the blue (because, well, it did, but that's neither here nor there). It doesn't help that Morrison's Batman run gets a two year gap where you kinda have to read a couple dozen issues of Snyder's run just to see where the new stakes of the New 52 are at before Morrison resumes his run on Inc with volume 2 with the new status quo, and the changes and removal totally hamstring the story of volume 2. The story becomes a confusing hodgepodge of trying to integrate Morrison's canon with the New 52 canon, which are fundamentally at odds with each. Requiem, as I mentioned, makes basically no sense as a story that happened in the New 52 canon. Like, zero. It's a clear square peg in a round hole situation. The New 52 also ends up undermining Batman Inc's stakes, because of stuff like Bruce Wayne being a titan of industry focused on a global police force is supposed to be happening at the same time as Snyder's Bruce Wayne being this real estate mogul focused on infrastructure improvements in Gotham. Normally I just do what I always do whenever different writer interpretations of the same character end up with stuff like Tony Stark being kidnapped in Japan while Iron Man is feuding with Captain Marvel in CWII - I just pretend that they're happening at different times - but they keep underlining and reinforcing that these things are happening simultaneously in a way that makes no sense. Batman, Inc itself sort of loses its central gimmick - a global community of Batmen - because a whole bunch of Batman Inc crucial members like Oracle and Black Bat and Cassandra Cain Batgirl and Morrison's Batwoman just don't exist in the canon any more in a way that sort of betrays its fundamental premise. It just feels like a story crippled critically by the N52 mandate and doesn't really work. The final two issues of Batman, Incorporated vol 2 were great and felt like a confrontation that had been built to since Batman and Son, but it's a story that gets no real play because Damian's death had been fumbled so hard due to trying to justify a bunch of different canons. The Wingman = Jason Todd reveal doesn't work because there exists an ongoing series with the Red Hood name on it that's ostensibly happening at the exact same time betraying the sort of redemptive arc for Jason that Morrison was going for. And finally and probably most galling for me the idea that all the events of Batman, Inc volume 2 happen sans Batgirl just feels really dishonest for me. I get why Morrison did it, because he had a specific Batgirl he wanted to use and considering how crucial Oracle was to the story previously (including immediately before the end of volume 1) probably felt like bringing back Barbara Gordon Batgirl wouldn't really make much sense, but...I just fundamentally refuse to believe that Barbara Gordon would sit this whole thing out as Leviathan takes over Gotham and holds it hostage. It feels actively dishonest. Anyways, yeah, Morrison Batman. Mixed bag. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 19:35
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Once again, not regarding RHATO at all improves your life. The problem with Requiem was that only two comics payed enough attention to Damian to earn an issue of mourning. B&R definitely makes it meaningful. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 19:53
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I mean, obviously, yes, I'm just saying that Morrison's arc for Wingman doesn't work when it's ostensibly happening the same time as Jason Todd killing people while quipping about how fat they are, so thus deserve it.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:00
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Toxxupation posted:I mean, obviously, yes, I'm just saying that Morrison's arc for Wingman doesn't work when it's ostensibly happening the same time as Jason Todd killing people while quipping about how fat they are, so thus deserve it. Except that you know, Jason spared Suzie's life twice and he was even willing to let her walk a third time (after she held hostage the entire child wing of Gotham's Hospital) if she simply stopedp her vendetta against Jason. In fact, through the whole run of RHATO Jason barely kills people after rescuing Roy from Kandaq. I'm not sure how you can tell Morrison had a better handle of Jason when there's a massive void bewteen his characterization on Revenge of The Red Hood (where he has gone batshit insane with violence, even offing two innocent cops) and his drafting into Batman Inc. as Wingman, docile and following Batman's commands all of the sudden. Dark_Tzitzimine fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 20:05
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By the way, if you were peeved at the way a lot of Inc's elements cut off at Leviathan Strikes, Grayson might soften that. On top of just being a super neat comic, It uses the assassin girl's school and Spyral throughout.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:07
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Teenage Fansub posted:The problem with Requiem was that only two comics payed enough attention to Damian to earn an issue of mourning. Yeah, Batman/Batman and Robin had good Requiem issues. Especially the latter.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:14
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The Teen Titans Requiem issue had Tim Drake holding Damian's costume with a sick grin on his face. That was pretty badly played.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:22
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:I'm not sure how you can tell Morrison had a better handle of Jason when there's a massive void bewteen his characterization on Revenge of The Red Hood (where he has gone batshit insane with violence, even offing two innocent cops) and his drafting into Batman Inc. as Wingman, docile and following Batman's commands all of the sudden. I agree, Jason Todd is a lovely loving character in general and not even a redemptive arc for him works. Rhyno posted:The Teen Titans Requiem issue had Tim Drake holding Damian's costume with a sick grin on his face. That was pretty badly played. The Teen Titans Requiem issue is atrociously bad. RHATO's actually sorta works (and is maybe the only time ever that Jason Todd comes across as sympathetic), which is some bizarro world poo poo.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:23
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Toxxupation posted:I agree, Jason Todd is a lovely loving character in general and not even a redemptive arc for him works. Oh, RHATO as whole worked perfectly as redemption arc for him and that was explored quite nicely on RH/A. Actually, Morrison's redemption works a lot better with Lobdell's Jason. Since Flashpoint erased a lot of of the most repulsive stuff he did in the pre flashpoint universe (Battle for the Cowl, Brothers in Blood, and with Revenge of the Red Hood being acknowledged in a single panel) and also gave some sorely needed maturity by introducing the All-Caste in his backstory, makes more plausible Bruce's choice to work with him in Batman Inc. I'm glad Lobdell is still in charge of Jason since he will be able to pick up from RH/A ended and give a new spin to the "classic" rendition of Jason forced on him by Rebirth. Plus, the idea of the Dark Trinity is awesome  I'll miss Roy though.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:32
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A Dark Trinity is a fairly rote but still cool concept, but the problem is they shouldn't be in their own title. They should be the VILLAINS for the actual Trinity book. Jason and Bizarro have literally been villains, and Artemis' claim to fame was being the Azrael to Diana's Batman.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:36
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Not that I wanna perpetuate a discussion on Red Hood, but what forced classic rendition? Did RHATO specify that he never jacked the Batmobile's tires and now he remembers?
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Jun 12, 2016 20:37
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Teenage Fansub posted:Not that I wanna perpetuate a discussion on Red Hood, but what forced classic rendition? Basically that he can only be a though, loner anti-hero bent on taking down criminal empires. During RHATO, Lobdell focused on move Jason from that mentality that had been burnt out due editorial mismanagement and giving him an actual niche between the DCU and a proper supporting cast. RH/A continued this trend and moved him even further from the anti-hero rendition and for a while, into a more heroic direction. But with DCYOU tanking and Rebirth basically taking down the DCU back to its pre-flashpoint roots, this direction was scrapped. Thst is why I found the arc with Duela to be the best part of the series, through the final six issues by using Duela as a mirror for Jason, Lobdell subtly undermine Jason's belief on his own goodness and his wish to remain a hero. In the final issue Jason's spirit is broken by Duela and he decides he can't be a hero, bouncing back to his anti-hero characterization. As I said, with Lobdell in charge all of his development in the last five years won't be completed scrapped and thus Jason won't be exactly the same character as he was in Under the Red Hood a decade ago.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:50
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The Batman/Nightwing issue of Batman and Robin was better than the entirety of Requiem and it ends up mourning the death of Damian better than Morrison ever did. gently caress that issue is loving incredible.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:51
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Gaz-L posted:A Dark Trinity is a fairly rote but still cool concept, but the problem is they shouldn't be in their own title. They should be the VILLAINS for the actual Trinity book. Jason and Bizarro have literally been villains, and Artemis' claim to fame was being the Azrael to Diana's Batman. Artemis sticks around throughout the rest of pre-Flashpoint WW, depending on the writer she ends up being a pretty fun character to have around, especially as the Wonder Family expands with Donna and Cassie becoming regular faces in the comics. Also Toxx you really shouldn't engage with D_T. Just pretend he's a funny forums robot they made to imitate a comic book nerd with awful opinions who pops up every time certain keywords are mentioned.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:59
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I never said Artemis was bad, but she was absolutely the edgy, violent Wonder Woman replacement from the 90s, just like Azrael was for Batman.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:28
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Travis343 posted:Also Toxx you really shouldn't engage with D_T. Just pretend he's a funny forums robot they made to imitate a comic book nerd with awful opinions who pops up every time certain keywords are mentioned. Let's not treat each other like this.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:36
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Basically that he can only be a though, loner anti-hero bent on taking down criminal empires. Nu52 Duela Dent was a lovely character. What does this say about the Jason Todd character since you say Duela was a mirror for Jason? Travis343 posted:Artemis sticks around throughout the rest of pre-Flashpoint WW, depending on the writer she ends up being a pretty fun character to have around, especially as the Wonder Family expands with Donna and Cassie becoming regular faces in the comics. D_T owns.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:40
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Mr Hootington posted:D_T owns. There's that word again.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:45
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Teenage Fansub posted:Let's not treat each other like this. Sorry Lets just say do not engage with him where jason todd is concerned because there is literally nothing good that can happen from that conversation
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Jun 12, 2016 21:48
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My mum always told me, if you don't have anything nice to say about Jason Todd don't say anything at all.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:54
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Toxxupation posted:The Batman/Nightwing issue of Batman and Robin was better than the entirety of Requiem and it ends up mourning the death of Damian better than Morrison ever did. 
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Jun 12, 2016 22:09
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Toxxupation posted:The Batman/Nightwing issue of Batman and Robin was better than the entirety of Requiem and it ends up mourning the death of Damian better than Morrison ever did. The panels with Alfred. Just....drat, man I got somethin in my eye.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:12
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Mr Hootington posted:Nu52 Duela Dent was a lovely character. What does this say about the Jason Todd character since you say Duela was a mirror for Jason? From a meta standpoint, Duela embodies all the negative elements associated with Jason's villianous persona from the old continuity. Deranged, psychotic and on its way to become another Joker. Whereas Jason is struggling to move forward as a hero alongside Roy, Duela is there as a constant reminder of his past. This is made clear when her last attack against Jason has Roy's life being decided by popular vote, mirroring Jason's own demise in DITF. Lobdell plays off this similarities by having Jason embarch into a quest to reedeem her since he sees her as a proxy for what he could've become without the All-Caste's guide and his friends' support. He figures that if he could return from the abyss, she can too. When the whole thing explodes in his face, Jason is left vulnerable at Duela's words, becoming increasingly aware of how similar they truly are slowly falling into despair. When Roy gets caught in the crossfire, Jason goes into a panic, fearful the story will repeat itself with Roy in Jason's place. This is why Jason goes full psycho in the final issue of the series, willing to do anything to save his only friend. While Jason succeds in saving Roy, he fails to overcome Duela's test and becomes convinced the only way he can end it is killing Duela, proving her point about being the same. When Roy intervenes taking a third option, Jason realizes he could never be a hero like Roy because he believes the world is inherently flawed. When you add to this development the role bystanders played by voting for Roy's demise (thus strenghtening Jason's belief about a flawed world) it comes off as Lobdell making a commentary on Jason having the potential being much more than just an "edgy anti-hero" but that is something the audience doesn't wants to see. Making even more poignant the way Jason is back to his old tricks in the post-Rebirth universe.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:16
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Sidenote on Batman Inc stuff, is it just me or was the cyberspace issue basically Digital Justice 2.0
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Jun 12, 2016 22:29
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No, that's pretty much exactly what it was. I did like some of the ideas Grant had though. And it's always nice to see him write Barbara Gordon.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:42
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:From a meta standpoint, Duela embodies all the negative elements associated with Jason's villianous persona from the old continuity. Deranged, psychotic and on its way to become another Joker. Whereas Jason is struggling to move forward as a hero alongside Roy, Duela is there as a constant reminder of his past. This is made clear when her last attack against Jason has Roy's life being decided by popular vote, mirroring Jason's own demise in DITF. I'm now 100% certain you do not understand what Jason Todd was supposed to be in the PreNu52 continuity. If they really are bringing that back you are about to be crushed. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 00:55
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Mr Hootington posted:I'm now 100% certain you do not understand what Jason Todd was supposed to be in the PreNu52 continuity. If they really are bringing that back you are about to be crushed. Lobdell is in charge so no, I'm not worried about it.
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Jun 13, 2016 01:55
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Lobell has no loving idea what he wants Red Hood to be either so.
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Jun 13, 2016 02:29
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Oh he does, is editorial the one who doesn't.
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Jun 13, 2016 02:36
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