|
Toilet Mouth posted:If he's no longer at the school, and the incident didn't occur at Baylor, then why would the continue the investigation? If he raped a Baylor student then she should probably get some closure.
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 03:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 00:53 |
|
|
rebel1608 posted:You seem to have missed the bit where he is under investigation for a sexual assault at Baylor in April, in addition to the FAU thing I did. Although, if they've found enough that they've deemed it prudent to kick him out I'm not sure where else they need to go from there. They're wrong to kick them out, they're wrong to let them stay, what exactly is the right way to do this?
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 03:47
|
|
|
Toilet Mouth posted:I did. Although, if they've found enough that they've deemed it prudent to kick him out I'm not sure where else they need to go from there. They're wrong to kick them out, they're wrong to let them stay, what exactly is the right way to do this? Finish investigating the goddamned rape for one
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 03:57
|
|
|
Toilet Mouth posted:I did. Although, if they've found enough that they've deemed it prudent to kick him out I'm not sure where else they need to go from there. They're wrong to kick them out, they're wrong to let them stay, what exactly is the right way to do this? I think the indication was that if he left without making a stink, the rape investigation would go away. Rather than, you know, continuing through to its end.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:01
|
|
|
Yeah they weren't kicking him out they were suggesting he leave, there is A big difference.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:16
|
|
|
kayakyakr posted:I think the indication was that if he left without making a stink, the rape investigation would go away. Rather than, you know, continuing through to its end. As difficult as rape accusations are to confirm, as we've seen at Baylor and also everywhere, I don't see anything wrong with the administration saying, "look, it's probably in everyone's best interest if you just leave." If he's committed a crime, it's not going to shield him from the criminal charges. If he's guilty, they've managed to get rid of a predator (for once), and if he's innocent, they're sparing him the life-ruining ramifications of going through an investigation under the microscope of the national press (the findings won't matter, he'll have had his name and "rape allegations" showing up together for months by the time it's over). Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but my impression is that the point of a campus investigation is to determine whether the student deserves punishment up to or including expulsion or not, not to create the all-time authoritative account of what exactly happened. Edit: Make no mistake, I think there are plenty of valid criticisms to make of how Baylor has handled everything, I just think this is an odd thing to key in on. General Dog fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jun 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:16
|
|
|
you're an idiot
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:17
|
|
|
Toilet Mouth posted:Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but my impression is that the point of a campus investigation is to determine whether the student deserves punishment up to or including expulsion or not, not to create the all-time authoritative account of what exactly happened. #1 Yes you are, as usual in these discussions #2 I don't think the point of a campus investigation should be "well dude, transfer and all of this goes away. Otherwise we might find something inconvenient to both of us."
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:23
|
|
|
The right thing to do is turn it over to police. Or it would be if they handled rape cases properly. I guess, maybe, appeal to Anonymous and hope they don't turn on the victim? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:27
|
|
|
Chichevache posted:The right thing to do is turn it over to police. So is the normal flow of reporting victim->university->police? I always assumed it was victim->police->university, if that's not the case then I need to rethink all of this. I was never under the impression that the university passed on information to the police, I thought the investigations ran concurrently.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:30
|
|
|
Chichevache posted:I guess, maybe, appeal to Anonymous and hope they don't turn on the victim? They may still be busy with gamergate and Anita Sarkeesian but maybe when that's over
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:31
|
|
|
here you go i googled "campus sexual assault process" then clicked on a link using the mouse, the peripheral device attached to almost all computers http://knowyourix.org/why-schools-handle-sexual-violence-reports/
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:32
|
|
|
Toilet Mouth posted:So is the normal flow of reporting victim->university->police? I always assumed it was victim->police->university, if that's not the case then I need to rethink all of this. I was never under the impression that the university passed on information to the police, I thought the investigations ran concurrently. You've thrown in an extra arrow between "University" and "Police"
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:33
|
|
|
v2vian man posted:here you go i googled "campus sexual assault process" then clicked on a link using the mouse, the peripheral device attached to almost all computers http://knowyourix.org/why-schools-handle-sexual-violence-reports/ Thanks. Kind of an obvious statement, but it seems like people in the athletic department shouldn't be tasked with these kind of investigations, as there are going to be inherent conflicts of interest. They were crazy not to have a devoted Title IX office, there's clearly no way you can do anything resembling an acceptable job with this stuff without it. General Dog fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jun 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:33
|
|
|
pillsburysoldier posted:They may still be busy with gamergate and Anita Sarkeesian but maybe when that's over Well it sounds like America needs a new hero. Visit my go fund me and help support my vigilante cause.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:59
|
|
|
gently caress dude you're disgusting
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 06:45
|
|
|
Supposedly Briles might be brought back by the really wealthy boosters
pillsburysoldier fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 17:33
|
|
|
pillsburysoldier posted:Supposedly Briles might be brought back by the really wealthy boosters Supposedly we should burn Baylor/Waco to the ground and salt the earth.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 19:48
|
|
|
Oh boy here comes Toilet Mouth again to tell us that football ain't football without a few rapes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 20:06
|
|
|
AAA DOLFAN posted:gently caress dude you're disgusting Wait, because I joked that I want to be the Batman who delivers justice where the law has failed?
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
Chichevache posted:The right thing to do is turn it over to police. Asking the Texas police to investigate a football player is like asking a Chicago mayor to investigate the unions. They're so in bed with each other they don't mind sharing toothbrushes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 20:51
|
|
|
Bad Moon posted:Asking the Texas police to investigate a football player is like asking a Chicago mayor to investigate the unions. They're so in bed with each other they don't mind sharing toothbrushes. I was talking ideals. If you want pragmatism then my suggestion would be to burn Texas down and start over. -Posted from my Ivory Tower
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 20:57
|
|
|
Bad Moon posted:Asking the Texas police to investigate a football player is like asking a Chicago mayor to investigate the unions. They're so in bed with each other they don't mind sharing toothbrushes. Evidently asking the school to do it is somehow worse
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 21:04
|
|
|
Toilet Mouth posted:As difficult as rape accusations are to confirm, as we've seen at Baylor and also everywhere, I don't see anything wrong with the administration saying, "look, it's probably in everyone's best interest if you just leave." If he's committed a crime, it's not going to shield him from the criminal charges. If he's guilty, they've managed to get rid of a predator (for once), and if he's innocent, they're sparing him the life-ruining ramifications of going through an investigation under the microscope of the national press (the findings won't matter, he'll have had his name and "rape allegations" showing up together for months by the time it's over). You don't see anything wrong with allowing an alleged rapist to walk away, unpunished and uninvestigated? What's your mom/sister/wife/daughters address so we can pass it along to the Baylor admin? I'm sure you'll get a loving clue about why that is a horrifying proposition. Getting "rid of a predator for once" by pushing them on another school is gross as gently caress, bruh!
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 21:55
|
|
|
Chilichimp posted:You don't see anything wrong with allowing an alleged rapist to walk away, unpunished and uninvestigated? But if the person is no longer a Baylor student, Baylor no longer has any ability to punish that person, so I don't really see why or how a disciplinary process would continue. If the alleged conduct was a violation of the law in addition to being a violation of the school's code of conduct, it's on the police/prosecutors/courts to pursue criminal penalties. Baylor University does not have the authority to investigate crimes and punish people for violations of the law if those people are not Baylor students or employees. If Baylor is in possession of information that may be relevant to the investigation of a crime, they should certainly turn that over to the relevant authorities. Nobody's saying the crime shouldn't be investigated or that rapists shouldn't be punished, only that Baylor University is not the proper institution to carry it out. Waco PD and the Waco DA's office would seem to be the ones falling down on the job here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 19:44
|
|
|
Baylor is not prepared, no. That doesn't mean they should encourage the dude to transfer, it means they should shape the gently caress up
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 20:06
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/TwittCommit/status/742029474972065794 https://twitter.com/ShehanJeyarajah/status/741803052919717888 Baylor's kinda gangster. But not in that cool way
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 20:20
|
|
|
Thermos H Christ posted:But if the person is no longer a Baylor student, Baylor no longer has any ability to punish that person, so I don't really see why or how a disciplinary process would continue. If the alleged conduct was a violation of the law in addition to being a violation of the school's code of conduct, it's on the police/prosecutors/courts to pursue criminal penalties. Baylor University does not have the authority to investigate crimes and punish people for violations of the law if those people are not Baylor students or employees. If Baylor is in possession of information that may be relevant to the investigation of a crime, they should certainly turn that over to the relevant authorities. Because the victim is still a student, isn't she?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 20:35
|
|
|
Chichevache posted:Because the victim is still a student, isn't she? I wouldn't go assuming anything here, this is Baylor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 20:37
|
|
|
Isn't the most Baylor can enforce, by continuing the investigation, a Dear Colleague letter and turning over their findings to the PD?
pillsburysoldier fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jun 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 20:49
|
|
|
pillsburysoldier posted:Isn't the most Baylor can enforce, by continuing the investigation, a Dear Colleague letter and turning over their findings to the PD? Well a forward-thinking institution would investigate it just so they could try to learn a lesson from what happened and hopefully try to make important changes.  Whoops, I'm not in Creative Convention.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 21:00
|
|
|
Chichevache posted:Well a forward-thinking institution would investigate it just so they could try to learn a lesson from what happened and hopefully try to make important changes. So, for, like, practice? I mean, sure, if the rape was unique enough, where its investigation challenged and pushed against current protocols to show they were lacking, or it demonstrated a hole in how the victims or due process were accommodated or not. These are absolutely worthy considerations. But due process is shot once the alleged perpetrator leaves, since he or she cannot defend him or her self. If you don't have a state entity with some form of police restricting the perpetrators movements and allowing them to defend themselves, it's kind of a poo poo show. You can't exactly have someone play a stand-in for the accused and then somehow count that among the required statistics and data they have to take. And on top of that, the institution now has to count the incident against itself with the federal statistics for someone they can say, is not a student. They can go through the motions with a real rape victim sitting against a strawman rapist in their process to continuously modify and self-evaluate, and that can be useful, but it also seems, I dunno, making light of it. I don't even think most victims would even want to play a part in that, even for the sake of self-improvement for the school, but good for them if they can do that sort of thing. Maybe they don't need to involve the victim if the victim doesn't feel justice can be served there, I dunno. It's really tricky, it seems
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 21:32
|
|
|
Thermos H Christ posted:But if the person is no longer a Baylor student, Baylor no longer has any ability to punish that person, so I don't really see why or how a disciplinary process would continue. If the alleged conduct was a violation of the law in addition to being a violation of the school's code of conduct, it's on the police/prosecutors/courts to pursue criminal penalties. Baylor University does not have the authority to investigate crimes and punish people for violations of the law if those people are not Baylor students or employees. If Baylor is in possession of information that may be relevant to the investigation of a crime, they should certainly turn that over to the relevant authorities. Baylor has a PD. They are the primary department responsible for investigating crimes on campus.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 21:39
|
|
|
pillsburysoldier posted:So, for, like, practice? I mean, sure, if the rape was unique enough, where its investigation challenged and pushed against current protocols to show they were lacking, or it demonstrated a hole in how the victims or due process were accommodated or not. These are absolutely worthy considerations. But due process is shot once the alleged perpetrator leaves, since he or she cannot defend him or her self. If you don't have a state entity with some form of police restricting the perpetrators movements and allowing them to defend themselves, it's kind of a poo poo show. You can't exactly have someone play a stand-in for the accused and then somehow count that among the required statistics and data they have to take. And on top of that, the institution now has to count the incident against itself with the federal statistics for someone they can say, is not a student. No, dipshit, not for practice. So they can learn how to protect their students and develop a healthy loving paranoia about accepting abusers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 22:43
|
|
|
I don't even understand why colleges have police in the first place. Some sort of security force makes sense, of course, but actual police from the local government should be doing the actual police work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:18
|
|
|
Chilichimp posted:No, dipshit, not for practice. So they can learn how to protect their students and develop a healthy loving paranoia about accepting abusers. Right, modifying and self-evaluating what they already do, is what I said, when their current handling is shown to be not good enough. Letting the rapist off without any sort of enforcement is letting someone else accept an abuser. This can only keep them prepared for the next time something like this happens, and that's if what they're doing in response is already, inherently insufficient. And, sadly, I don't think most institutions, that aren't openly antagonizing the victims, have sexual assault advocates and investigators with dockets empty enough to be not be paranoid about abusers. We're arguing the same point, though I guess mine focuses more on the administrative side pillsburysoldier fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jun 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:21
|
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:Baylor has a PD. They are the primary department responsible for investigating crimes on campus. Well, if any law enforcement agency is talking about dropping a criminal investigation in exchange for the accused withdrawing from Baylor, that is beyond reprehensible. Even more so if the school is exerting some kind of influence to make that happen. I think a lot of University PD's pass more serious crimes on to the other local law enforcement agencies, but regardless, someone should be investigating this. And it should be a law enforcement agency, not a bunch of school administrators.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:36
|
|
|
Sash! posted:I don't even understand why colleges have police in the first place. Some sort of security force makes sense, of course, but actual police from the local government should be doing the actual police work. In a lot of states, University Police Departments are funded and staffed through the State PD. Its just a different branch, and helps make it so counties and cities aren't funding the police force, which for a school of say 40,000 is substantial.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:47
|
|
|
Sash! posted:I don't even understand why colleges have police in the first place. Some sort of security force makes sense, of course, but actual police from the local government should be doing the actual police work. A lot of schools exist in places where they are bigger than the adjoining town/city. It just makes more sense for them to employ their own public safety officers than rely on the police in their county/town. In fact, my college's "police" are contracted by the town it's in to respond to 911 calls for the city proper, because they are 30 minutes closer than the nearest sheriffs office.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2016 00:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 00:53 |
|
|
As I understand the system, victims can either start a school-level investigation, a criminal investigation, or both. The school has the power to suspend or expel a student and uses the standard of civil courts, "a preponderance of evidence." A criminal investigation obviously would have the usual criminal investigation powers of casting doubt and blame on the victim and excusing the crime--er i mean jail time for the perpetrator. This is coming from my reading of the link i posted earlier. I'll see if I can find anything clearer later. I think this system sucks because it places the onus on the victim to do too much of the work, but it could be made easier with good administration. All of that said, encouraging the accused to transfer so the investigation will go away is the slimiest poo poo imaginable
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2016 00:54
|
|