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Rexicon1 posted:What's your point? The shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS, therefore it is OK to blame Islam. Which as you know is homophobic and misogynistic. It's okay to say this, don't be afraid.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:20
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emdash posted:would love to hear solutions from all the "islam BAD" goons that don't violate the rights, civil or otherwise, of US citizen muslims Hint, they'd be happy to simple trample all over their rights.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:21
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MC Nietzche posted:Fair, but I think that a part of politicizing is also musing about how these events might affect your ability to get elected. Grassroots/political pressure are a thing but its still difficult to enact an agenda if you lose an election. Then again musing about poll numbers is what loving morons do right now because all this poo poo is going into the memory hole in 2 weeks. I mean the right wing media did their best to tie Obama to both Paris and Brussels and his approval numbers have never been higher. That's true. Igor Volsky is retweeting specific politicians' "thoughts and prayers" tweets with the amount they've received from the NRA which is, I think, a totally apt way of pointing out the connection. I also hope that campaigns can use specific votes and specific stances to get pro-gun control politicians elected and some others out of office. But making polling predictions and completely non-policy-related musing (like "oh what if he was specifically targeting Latinos") is definitely not that.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:22
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Are we accusing the NRA of aiding terrorism now?
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Jun 12, 2016 22:24
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Joementum posted:The shooter's dad thinks he's the President of Afghanistan and hosted a TV show where he supported the Taliban. Alright, I'm done, gently caress this day.  Just once I'd like somebody to be sincere and non-crazy in politics and not have a crazy or dark past.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:27
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Dude, the FBI was literally investigating this guy. Someone dropped the ball big time. Shimrra Jamaane posted:Dude, the FBI was literally investigating this guy. Someone dropped the ball big time. Had investigated him, in 2013 and 2014, and dropped the cases when nothing developed. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html They investigated him, found nothing of interest, and moved on. Because there was nothing to investigate - he wasn't actively working with ISIS/ISIL or any sort of radical organization. Again, what's your argument here? That the FBI should have smelled crazy on him and kept him under constant surveillance? If so, what obvious clues should there have been to indicate that he, out of the thousands of crazies referred to the FBI, should have been kept on a watchlist for another two years?
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Jun 12, 2016 22:27
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Well apparently Trump has said that he is changing the topic of tomorrow's speech to focus on national security. Oh god this is going to be painful. But hopefully we'll come out of it with new horrifyingly crazy soundbites.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:28
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Are we accusing the NRA of aiding terrorism now? Accusing? No. I am pondering lately what the effective difference between terrorist and right wing policy is however. Apparently one kind of killing Americans is incidental and an acceptable way for things to happen where another is not, suspiciously seeming to relate onto if the perpetrator is an ethnic, religious, economic or in this case sexuality minority. Justice should be blind.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:32
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Fox Ironic posted:Goddamn people, it's loving intersectional. Nothing exists in a vacuum. It's simultaneously: Nice job. 
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Jun 12, 2016 22:33
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Sinteres posted:At least you admit you don't give a poo poo about victims so much as attacking people. I guess that's why you aren't concerned about confronting homophobia where it's found. this is an incredible deflection to avoid being remotely close to approaching something like self-awareness and i have to give you credit Trabisnikof posted:You're right. This attack in part was facilitated by the policies of this administration, President Obama and Secretary Clinton, that have allowed political correctness into the threat assessment. Today I beg the White House, stop with the political correctness. We need to destroy this enemy before more innocent people, gay, straight, black, white, brown, yellow are murdered on U.S. soil. to protect the brown people, we must stop letting brown people into this country, no i'm not racist why do you ask
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Jun 12, 2016 22:37
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Well apparently Trump has said that he is changing the topic of tomorrow's speech to focus on national security. Oh god this is going to be painful. But hopefully we'll come out of it with new horrifyingly crazy soundbites.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:38
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This Orlando shooting is just terrible, but I guess it's another day in America. The NRA will again double down and argue that military grade weapons are no big deal in the mass consumer market even though they were never intended for civilian use. The anti-Muslim folks, Trump as their leader, will double down on bigotry and intolerance. People will try to ignore that this was likely an anti-LGBT crime because the LGBT movements make them uncomfortable, and some gun regulation created only to inflame the legal gun owner lobby will surely be proposed and shot down. And we'll all ignore the fact that once again, dozens of people died who shouldn't have and miss the real problem. I'm going on my first ever live podcast to stir poo poo on this topic if anyone wants to goonrush with questions, comments, statements that I suck or whatever. But I felt I should say something since I have the platform. Should be on at 5pm CST: http://mixlr.com/joeryan
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Jun 12, 2016 22:41
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How exactly would "better gun socialization" have helped in Orlando?
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Jun 12, 2016 22:42
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Trabisnikof posted:How exactly would "better gun socialization" have helped in Orlando? The victims could have pulled the firing pin out
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Jun 12, 2016 22:44
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fade5 posted:Welp, Fox Ironic easily wins "best post on this other wise horribly lovely day". Thanks
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Jun 12, 2016 22:44
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For reference, I live in Florida and the Orlando shooter used an AR-15. I can drive fifteen minutes inland and start seeing billboards advertising AR-15s for sale, usually with a tagline about Obama wanting you to not have one or suggesting that you're not a man without one.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:44
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Trabisnikof posted:How exactly would "better gun socialization" have helped in Orlando? are guns loving abused dogs now? Oh no it's not a bad thing, it just needs to be better socialized, then you can have it around kids and poo poo.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:46
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Trabisnikof posted:How exactly would "better gun socialization" have helped in Orlando? you could have had more people with guns who didn't know who was doing the shooting so that when they see someone else with a gun they could shoot the wrong person (assuming they don't miss and hit a bystander)
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Jun 12, 2016 22:46
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emdash posted:would love to hear solutions from all the "islam BAD" goons that don't violate the rights, civil or otherwise, of US citizen muslims I don't know. I think most people when they aren't getting off on outrage would admit that they'd prefer to host a moderate/lapsed Muslim community to one committed to a strict reading of the Quran and hadith, just as I wouldn't want to live in a community of strict born-again Christians, but obviously you can't start outright banning the Saudi mosques that have done so much to bring back a Salafist understanding of Islam in the modern world. My main hope is that the jihadists are right and the West is an inherently corrupting force that will assimilate Muslim immigrants and make them just as bad at giving a poo poo about their religion as most of our Christians are, particularly in the younger generation. In the meantime, I really don't know what you do about second generation children, often of privilege, rebelling against their parents, the world, the excesses of the West or whatever by becoming jihadists themselves, but I think acknowledging that there are issues which seem to be unique (at the present, not inherently, and admittedly less so in the US than in Europe) to this community which bear some thought would be a good start. Fixing the Middle East is probably a big part of the answer, so there isn't a siren call of poo poo out there to lure in disaffected youths, but good loving luck with that. Starting with a harder stance against homophobia in our schools, in the media and in the citizenship process might not be the worst place to start though.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:47
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Trabisnikof posted:How exactly would "better gun socialization" have helped in Orlando? Understanding that a gun (of whatever type) is something you use for a hobby/hunting/self-defense as an extreme last resort, and not something you use to settle disputes or teach a group of "others" a lesson? Fox Ironic posted:Thanks I'd just like to add my own appreciation, and also ask if it would be okay if I could repost your list (verbatim or otherwise) somewhere else? Thanks.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:52
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Sinteres posted:I don't know. I think most people when they aren't getting off on outrage would admit that they'd prefer to host a moderate/lapsed Muslim community to one committed to a strict reading of the Quran and hadith, just as I wouldn't want to live in a community of strict born-again Christians, but obviously you can't start outright banning the Saudi mosques that have done so much to bring back a Salafist understanding of Islam in the modern world. My main hope is that the jihadists are right and the West is an inherently corrupting force that will assimilate Muslim immigrants and make them just as bad at giving a poo poo about their religion as most of our Christians are, particularly in the younger generation. In the meantime, I really don't know what you do about second generation children, often of privilege, rebelling against their parents, the world, the excesses of the West or whatever by becoming jihadists themselves, but I think acknowledging that there are issues which seem to be unique (at the present, not inherently, and admittedly less so in the US than in Europe) to this community which bear some thought would be a good start. Fixing the Middle East is probably a big part of the answer, so there isn't a siren call of poo poo out there to lure in disaffected youths, but good loving luck with that. Starting with a harder stance against homophobia in our schools, in the media and in the citizenship process might not be the worst place to start though. It's even broader than that. You have to emphasize tolerance of all kinds. Remember the hushed stories about the San Bernardino coworker who spouted ugly Islamophobic rhetoric in the months/hours leading up to the shooting?
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Jun 12, 2016 22:52
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People are just gonna try to find some way to feel some sense of control in the Orlando event. There's no reason to think the FBI/NSA/Illuminati could've stopped him because he had a clean background check way above what's required for buying a firearm in order to be a security guard. And there's no reason this kind of attack required him to ever broadcast his plans to anyone, in any recorded way, ever.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:52
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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JerryLee posted:Understanding that a gun (of whatever type) is something you use for a hobby/hunting/self-defense as an extreme last resort, and not something you use to settle disputes or teach a group of "others" a lesson? Are you seriously trying to argue that if someone had told the shooter that it would have helped? poo poo why didn't we think to just remind mass murderers guns aren't for killing a bunch of people even if they do it really well!! Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 22:53
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Trabisnikof posted:Are you seriously trying to argue that if someone had told the shooter that it would have helped? I mean probably not if you just tapped him on the shoulder and told him as an "oh btw" thing a moment before he went into the nightclub, but are you seriously trying to argue that the cultural messages (or lack thereof) about violence and guns, that he was presumably steeped in from a very early age as a result of Being A Human Being Living In Our Society, did not have a major effect on this outcome?
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Jun 12, 2016 22:55
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Trabisnikof posted:Are you seriously trying to argue that if someone had told the shooter that it would have helped? It might help with other kinds of gun violence that are way more statistically significant than mass shootings, i.e. literally any other category of gun violence.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:56
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Trabisnikof posted:Are you seriously trying to argue that if someone had told the shooter that it would have helped? That's the kind of thing you have to argue if you're willing to accept American gun ownership, where the average person who owns a gun at all owns about 4, because out of ~71 million gun owners there's greater than 290 million privately owned guns among them!
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Jun 12, 2016 22:56
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emdash posted:would love to hear solutions from all the "islam BAD" goons that don't violate the rights, civil or otherwise, of US citizen muslims They do not care one loving bit about the rights, civil or otherwise, of those particular US citizens. Their perceived safety > * Shimrra Jamaane posted:Well apparently Trump has said that he is changing the topic of tomorrow's speech to focus on national security. Oh god this is going to be painful. But hopefully we'll come out of it with new horrifyingly crazy soundbites. I bet his campaign and handlers will be really glad to have him going completely off topic from what they've presumably been working on for at least a week...
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Jun 12, 2016 22:56
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JerryLee posted:I mean probably not if you just tapped him on the shoulder and told him as an "oh btw" thing a moment before he went into the nightclub, but are you seriously trying to argue that the cultural messages (or lack thereof) about violence and guns that he was presumably steeped in from a very early age as a result of Being A Human Being Living In Our Society did not have a major effect on this outcome? Yeah and I don't think that has anything to do with teaching people about the "good side of guns". The idea that gun safety classes or hunting speeches by the NRA would stop a mass murderer is insane.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:57
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JerryLee posted:I mean probably not if you just tapped him on the shoulder and told him as an "oh btw" thing a moment before he went into the nightclub, but are you seriously trying to argue that the cultural messages (or lack thereof) about violence and guns, that he was presumably steeped in from a very early age as a result of Being A Human Being Living In Our Society, did not have a major effect on this outcome? And yet 99.99% of people exposed to that same culture don't become crazed murderers.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:57
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Trabisnikof posted:The idea that gun safety classes or hunting speeches by the NRA would stop a mass murderer is insane. this is not the same thing as what he was saying at all, though
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Jun 12, 2016 22:58
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DeusExMachinima posted:It might help with other kinds of gun violence that are way more statistically significant than mass shootings, i.e. literally any other category of gun violence. You really think telling someone "that handgun is for self defense not murdering your wife or killing yourself" would have any impact on the outcome?
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Jun 12, 2016 22:58
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WampaLord posted:And yet 99.99% of people exposed to that same culture don't become crazed murderers. ok so its not guns, and its not anything to do with guns, so i guess we just need to hate brown people and resign ourselves to untold numbers of mass shootings
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Jun 12, 2016 22:58
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Literally The Worst posted:this is not the same thing as what he was saying at all, though He's saying that teaching everyone about how good guns get used for hunting and shooting bad people would magically make people stop using guns to commit crimes. Gun safety training helps reduce another tragic gun related category of death: accidental shootings. But not crimes.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:00
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JerryLee posted:I mean probably not if you just tapped him on the shoulder and told him as an "oh btw" thing a moment before he went into the nightclub, but are you seriously trying to argue that the cultural messages (or lack thereof) about violence and guns, that he was presumably steeped in from a very early age as a result of Being A Human Being Living In Our Society, did not have a major effect on this outcome? You can't control the cultural messages to ensure that this outcome wouldn't have happened. Twitter and the web offer so many alternative messages that you can select the one that fits best even if it doesn't fit the dominant narrative. You'd literally need 1984/A Brave New World-like control over all forms of media to even come close. Hell, just the fact that the guy decided to ideologically align himself with ISIS instead of the dominant western culture in which he was raised should say a lot about the limits of changing cultural messages.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:00
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Trabisnikof posted:You really think telling someone "that handgun is for self defense not murdering your wife or killing yourself" would have any impact on the outcome? That's...not what gun safety classes are? They're like 'don't leave your gun unattended ever' and poo poo. Yes they do curb other kinds of gun violence, they wouldn't do poo poo here but don't pretend to not know a basic concept just to be obtuse.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:01
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Trabisnikof posted:You really think telling someone "that handgun is for self defense not murdering your wife or killing yourself" would have any impact on the outcome? JerryLee posted:Understanding that a gun (of whatever type) is something you use for a hobby/hunting/self-defense as an extreme last resort, and not something you use to settle disputes or teach a group of "others" a lesson? I think we're losing the original post. I'd say "an understanding" goes a little deeper than just telling someone something once. But yeah I think that such an understanding could make a difference in suicide, domestic violence, and "accidental" shootings. e: also what tatum girlparts just said
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Jun 12, 2016 23:02
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Sinteres posted:At least you admit you don't give a poo poo about victims so much as attacking people. I guess that's why you aren't concerned about confronting homophobia where it's found. i disagree with your claim that islam is inherently homophobic, which you have not been able to demonstrate or substantiate at all and which is mostly borne out by your intense dislike of religion. as i said earlier, you cannot use bigotry to justify being a bigot
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Jun 12, 2016 23:02
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Trabisnikof posted:He's saying that teaching everyone about how good guns get used for ... shooting bad people you should probably go back and read that, actually, that's not what he was saying at all
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Jun 12, 2016 23:03
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DeusExMachinima posted:I think we're losing the original post. How would gun safety classes (presumably we're talking for the general public since lol at the NRA allowing mandatory classes for gun owners) help prevent domestic violence? Tatum Girlparts posted:That's...not what gun safety classes are? They're like 'don't leave your gun unattended ever' and poo poo. Yes they do curb other kinds of gun violence, they wouldn't do poo poo here but don't pretend to not know a basic concept just to be obtuse. Glad you can admit it would nothing to help here. This new line from the gun lobby, that if only we spent more public money on "gun education" something good would happen is frustrating because they make it seem like a good idea, except they'll fight you spending private dollars on it, they'll fight you making it required, and they'll make sure and stack the "education" to be as pro-gun as humanly possible. Literally The Worst posted:you should probably go back and read that, actually, that's not what he was saying at all Shooting someone in self defense is in fact shooting bad people. Which is what was said. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 23:06
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Trabisnikof posted:How would gun safety classes (presumably we're talking for the general public since lol at the NRA allowing mandatory classes for gun owners) help prevent domestic violence? you're the only one saying gun safety classes
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Jun 12, 2016 23:07
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