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I've been playing the update more and I've come to...well, "appreciate" isn't the right word, but I realized the general idea they're going for. The only problem is that the resistances are downright aggressive. It shouldn't take my LAR three shots to decapitate a bloat, nor should a Stalker just tank a shotgun blast. Some resistance is fine, borderline immunity is even okay, but not when it's for so many zeds. What'd be okay is if there was a "problem" zed each class had and a zed they utterly destroy, and the rest you can take down with a normal amount of effort. What you have now is as a Commando I can one-shot Stalkers but I need to ammo dump into a Bloat and a Gorefast for it to even lose its head, and run in horror from Scrakes and Fleshpounds. I know it's meant to encourage teamplay but there's so much overlap between each class that now my small range of zeds I can kill is being contested by somebody whose zeds also fall in that range. Competing for kills isn't new to Killing Floor, but the problem is now many times worse. Also I loved pre-patch Demo. But this patch as a whole nerfed him to the point of uselessness. Why is it that even with all the perks that are meant for me to be a Fleshpound and Scrake killer, using a weapon that is slow, clunky, and a projectile that's hard to headshot with, I'm not as effective as a level 0 Sharpshooter using a rail gun? Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 05:05
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Theta Zero posted:What'd be okay is if there was a "problem" zed each class had and a zed they utterly destroy, and the rest you can take down with a normal amount of effort. instead pbbbbbbbbbbbttttttttttt
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Jun 12, 2016 05:56
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KF2 is pretty bad now, jesus.
Grapplejack fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 06:33
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Between red orchestra 2 and this I'm not sure why I thought giving tripwire money was a good idea.
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Jun 12, 2016 07:11
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Great Beer posted:Between red orchestra 2 and this I'm not sure why I thought giving tripwire money was a good idea. I thought RO2 was a fluke based on how well Rising Storm was. I was wrong.
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Jun 12, 2016 07:53
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closeted republican posted:I thought RO2 was a fluke based on how well Rising Storm was.
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Jun 12, 2016 08:10
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Whelp, I had 200 hours of fun while it lasted in KF2. I'll reinstall it when it isn't a piece of poo poo in a year or two.
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Jun 12, 2016 08:23
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I don't really think TWI is pandering to the elite players as it where, they'll ultimately pander the most to people who will spend money on their micro transaction stuff, hence why some of the balance changes feel like they where done with normal/hard in mind. Haha they removed the parry damage mitigation, that actually affects every class, I remember seeing some really good players carry a katana around on any class so they could parry scrakes or FPs in case of an emergency, usually saved their asses to. Alteisen fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 09:12
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I posted a guide just listing the resistances and weaknesses each zed has when I realized that flamethrowing weapons have inverted strengths and weaknesses from microwave weapons. I came up with a theory that two firebugs just spamming the opposite of the other (IE caulk and burn vs microwave gun while swapping when needed) would be just an unstoppable kill mine. Lo and behold, using the new resistance system encouraging class diversity, my team of 5 firebugs managed to cut throw entire hordes. Granted, this was only on hard, but the level of destruction we caused was so catastrophic that I doubt suicidal would be much different. Things were falling apart like they were made of paper.
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Jun 12, 2016 11:09
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Theta Zero posted:I posted a guide just listing the resistances and weaknesses each zed has when I realized that flamethrowing weapons have inverted strengths and weaknesses from microwave weapons. I came up with a theory that two firebugs just spamming the opposite of the other (IE caulk and burn vs microwave gun while swapping when needed) would be just an unstoppable kill mine. Lo and behold, using the new resistance system encouraging class diversity, my team of 5 firebugs managed to cut throw entire hordes. Granted, this was only on hard, but the level of destruction we caused was so catastrophic that I doubt suicidal would be much different. Things were falling apart like they were made of paper. It's like a pike and shot formation except with fire
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Jun 12, 2016 11:18
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Theta Zero posted:I posted a guide just listing the resistances and weaknesses each zed has when I realized that flamethrowing weapons have inverted strengths and weaknesses from microwave weapons. I came up with a theory that two firebugs just spamming the opposite of the other (IE caulk and burn vs microwave gun while swapping when needed) would be just an unstoppable kill mine. Lo and behold, using the new resistance system encouraging class diversity, my team of 5 firebugs managed to cut throw entire hordes. Granted, this was only on hard, but the level of destruction we caused was so catastrophic that I doubt suicidal would be much different. Things were falling apart like they were made of paper. Class diversity!
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Jun 12, 2016 11:36
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The solution to this problem is to nerf Firebug, obviously.
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Jun 12, 2016 12:04
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Theta Zero posted:Also I loved pre-patch Demo. But this patch as a whole nerfed him to the point of uselessness. Why is it that even with all the perks that are meant for me to be a Fleshpound and Scrake killer, using a weapon that is slow, clunky, and a projectile that's hard to headshot with, I'm not as effective as a level 0 Sharpshooter using a rail gun? Obviously the solution here is to nerf the Sharpshooter. But not now, we want to take lessons from LoL, and release classes that are totally overpowered at launch and nerf them down the line so people do... what exactly?
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Jun 12, 2016 12:05
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http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=702207621 Here's the guide I posted detailing the new resistances. It's much more easy to digest than Tripwire's unhelpful graphs and their Steam post which contained a lot of outright incorrect information, and it's more straightforward than the damage spreadsheet. It's simplified into categories, and includes a guide at the bottom explaining what zeds are weak and strong against if you're specifically having trouble with them. It's also great to clearly see how hard Demo, Berserker, and Gunslinger got gimped.
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Jun 12, 2016 14:46
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How is the removal of acceleration still regulated to editing an ini file!
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Jun 12, 2016 15:35
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Theta Zero posted:http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=702207621 Thanks for the write up, but my god, if it wasn't clear just how lovely this system really is - look no further than here. I thought by simplifying the system that maybe I would see some of it's strengths, but its actually the opposite. I like how some weapons are not "good" at anything, and the enemies that they are "normal" on are just your basic clot/cyst/slasher - while tanking on everything else.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:26
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http://imgur.com/a/BfTic Someone also made this in case you can't words too good
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Jun 12, 2016 19:29
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but no guys it's just us wanting a  head-pop simulator and none of us have any actually good critiques of the syste---oh, wait, everything we all said day one is loving verified by the resist data. Almost like the playerbase knows the game pretty well!!also, for real, head-popping is awesome. Who wouldn't want that? Honestly. Psion fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 19:38
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Is this patch now live or still on the beta system? I can't tell, I uninstalled.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:42
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Is this patch now live or still on the beta system? I can't tell, I uninstalled. It's still in the beta branch, but they aren't exactly being responsive to the playerbase. I've seen significant resistance (hehhhhh) to the resist system here, Steam, TWI offical forums, and well, you saw them disappear instead of actually listening to critique and engaging the players on how to solve the problem. also I still can't get over the idea that the RPG and M79 are supposed to be precision point-target weapons, like "you literally have to direct hit a Siren to kill it" ...because the class with single-shot, slow reload, limited ammunition explosive weapons definitely needs to be as precise in their fire as all the classes with, I dunno, large ammo capacity semiautomatic handguns or scoped rifles or whatever. 
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Jun 12, 2016 19:47
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What I love about that is that the intended "this is my job to kill target" for the Demo is literally the zed who's job it is to counter Demo. How do you arrive at and think "this is good intuitive design".
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Jun 12, 2016 19:53
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Psion posted:It's still in the beta branch, but they aren't exactly being responsive to the playerbase. I've seen significant resistance (hehhhhh) to the resist system here, Steam, TWI offical forums, and well, you saw them disappear instead of actually listening to critique and engaging the players on how to solve the problem. there's a ton of negative reviews on the store page now claiming that they got banned from various forums for expressing dissenting opinions as well I dunno how true or false this is but the sheer number of reviews claiming bans is a little disturbing
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Jun 12, 2016 19:55
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I wouldn't be surprised. I'm sure TWI feels really pressured and besieged right now because they worked really hard on something and everyone loving hates it; it takes a lot of maturity to admit that hey, we hosed up, we'll make it right - especially after working really hard on something and having to realize you're wrong. see, e.g., Overkill doing it like loving champs. At the end of the day it's a question of are you making a game for yourself or are you making it for your playerbase. I don't think this is a question TWI has ever really understood. Their behavior makes it clear which side they want to come down on, though. Psion fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 19:59
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Is the goal of the resist system to encourage class diversity? Because it's kind of doing the opposite of that. If firebug can cover everything with the microwave, their fire weapons, and the trench gun, why play anything else? When firebug gets nerfed again in light of this revelation, you're still going to be expected to change perks on a wave by wave basis and go all in on a single perk come boss time anyway. Making people lovely at killing specific zeds is going to cause the player base to choose the path of least resistance in terms of defeating the resistance system, which does the opposite of encourage diversity. The Big Bad Worf fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 20:05
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Psion posted:I wouldn't be surprised. I'm sure TWI feels really pressured and besieged right now because they worked really hard on something and everyone loving hates it; it takes a lot of maturity to admit that hey, we hosed up, we'll make it right - especially after working really hard on something and having to realize you're wrong. Their internal testers said it was fun and that is all that really matters.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:05
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randombattle posted:What a stupid update. Killing floor is a game about wrecking poo poo like a bad rear end doom wad and throwing money around not debating proper weapon uses to counter resistances on naked ladies and naked fat men. Like, make this MMO Raid complexity part of a hardcore difficulty or something like L4Ds Realism modifier. Great Beer posted:Between red orchestra 2 and this I'm not sure why I thought giving tripwire money was a good idea.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:16
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https://www.twitch.tv/tminator64 This guys loving around with the patch right now and how awful it is. The zerk stuff lol
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Jun 12, 2016 20:25
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I can clear a couple of things up, but only a couple. No, as far as I'm aware there have been no instructions to ban for dissenting opinions; the reviews are stemming from either being banned for repeatedly posting in the wrong forums, or riding a fun little hatewagon. The gameplay and feedback team has been cataloging a ton of feedback and they've got a bunch of things planned for next week, none of which I'm at liberty to talk about. You're probably not seeing a lot of response because it's the weekend and folks are home with their families, or for the majority of us it's not really our place to talk about stuff. Though personally (and I'm only speaking for myself) I stopped posting in here because it isn't my place or my job to really talk with folks about stuff I'm not working on. The fact that I both don't have answers and undoubtedly couldn't tell you even if I did means I really got nothin' for y'all, and the stuff I would have to answer falls so far outside my job I couldn't even give you a proper answer if the stars aligned and I had both info and permission. I'm talking to you guys right now as a guy who's been posting on SA for 12 years, not as an official rep of TWI or a dev or anything. I can't say anything, I wouldn't even if I could because I'd get it wrong anyway, but please trust me that the team is very aware of the reaction and are working very, very hard to align the game with what people want. There's no malice, no short-sightedness, no ill intention or misconceived ideas. Yes we "tested internally" and it went well, and some of us (me) went in blind to the changes and just thought it was harder. Now it's in a public beta to be more directly shaped by that public, which was the intention from the get-go. We absolutely get we have a severe bias playing the game; that's why it's in beta and we're making changes. The team's already made a few quick changes in what time they had on Friday, with way more on the way. Band-aid or not, it was mainly to shift the easiest items on the list, not even scratch them off as "done" but just to make some adjustment towards "normal" before the weekend.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:35
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I usually don't take the pubby "censorship" cries seriously anyway. It's usually serial shitposters who either get to be the shitlords they want or complain that they're being oppressed into not being able to give feedback.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:24
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I just like carrying a torch and pitchfork, honestly.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:27
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Psst, so I made a thing on the TWI forums about something someone said up in the thread, it's about the Berseker ranged weapons. So far I've got one measly response, but thats because the forums are slow as poo poo since every single post has to be moderator approved. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=118091
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Jun 12, 2016 22:25
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OneDeadlyBum posted:Is the goal of the resist system to encourage class diversity? Because it's kind of doing the opposite of that. If firebug can cover everything with the microwave, their fire weapons, and the trench gun, why play anything else? This is really the crux of it, they installed a resist system that doesn't accomplish what they think it does. Several classes cannot do what they are designed to do. If we had gotten just the sharpshooter with whatever warts and nothing else this patch would have been fine. Everything else is so bad and perplexing that I can't tell what they were thinking or what their internal team is doing to make this seem like the right path.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:59
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Okay hey so there's some bugs that are still in the game that's been there for months that Tripwire hasn't noticed or is just too lazy to fix, a few of which are gamebreaking. The first is that if a Firebug with the Zed Shrapnel perk kills too many zeds in zed time, as if they were, say, in front of a welded door, it outright crashes the server. Secondly, all Commando weapons and the dual 9mm pistols will randomly fire blanks. They make the noise, but they do no damage and sometimes there isn't even a bullet trail, but the ammo counter goes down. Continuing from bugs involving Commando weapons, at random the AK and Scar will have a bullet in the magazine disappear if you weapon swap after reloading it. Also related, but Demo rockets and grenades are still literally vanishing or outright not exploding at random, or are impacting server-side ragdolls that the player can't even see. Another glitch involving Demo is if you switch while ironsighting into the C4, your character will constantly activate the device even if you release the mouse button. The last, which should be so easy to fix but they still haven't, is Gorefasts instantly recover from being stumbled. They did that when melee bashing was still functional, and now they do that when they're stumbling using the new stumbling system, and they recover fast enough to wind up and hit you with an attack before you even end your animation for meleeing them. An example of the Firebug crash happens at 7:59 in this video and an example of weapons outright not firing anything happens at 8:17 at this one. I've had all of these glitches happen during this opt in beta so they're still happening and have never been fixed. What is less of a bug and more of a "feature" is ragdolls blocking bullets, which is completely pointless and does nothing but needlessly hamper the flow of the game.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:22
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Speaking of collisions, player collisions should be off by default, IMO. I'm glad it's a server option but let's be real about which one is superior. but - again - none of this really matters until the resists are fixed and I'm sorry, I don't see that getting fixed unless they are removed. Not just from a mechanical perspective but a player trust one. If there needs to be a conversation about difficulty let's have one, but at this point it cannot start from the position of "these resists are good if we tweak them more." Psion fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 23:30
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I mean, there's a pretty simple way of fixing them, in the abstract: instead of punishing players for having the wrong type of gun, reward them for having the right type. Make it so that if a zed resists a certain type of damage, it takes 80-90% of the damage it took before, and if it's weak to a damage type, it takes 125-150% of the base amount instead. Then, simplify damage types into melee/bullet/fire/explosive (add shotguns as a fifth if you want), and make sure that each damage type is weak/strong against no more than a couple of enemies each. Then, be incredibly open about which enemy fits in which category for each gun - put it on loading screens, in an in-game codex and on the store page for each gun in the block of stats, so that players never have to remember the information or consult an external source for it, and can just look ingame. It would end up as a codification and extension of what was there before with husk fire resistance and scrake explosive resistance, which is good, while also not being unfun and punishing for players.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:55
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Lemon-Lime posted:I mean, there's a pretty simple way of fixing them, in the abstract: instead of punishing players for having the wrong type of gun, reward them for having the right type. Make it so that if a zed resists a certain type of damage, it takes 80-90% of the damage it took before, and if it's weak to a damage type, it takes 125-150% of the base amount instead. Are you saying you know better than our internal playtesters you son of a bitch!!
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Jun 12, 2016 23:58
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Lemon-Lime posted:I mean, there's a pretty simple way of fixing them, in the abstract: instead of punishing players for having the wrong type of gun, reward them for having the right type. Make it so that if a zed resists a certain type of damage, it takes 80-90% of the damage it took before, and if it's weak to a damage type, it takes 125-150% of the base amount instead. Yeah, this would work. I guess I see that as scrapping the extant resist system and starting over but you are right, if they collapse the number of categories and turn it around, it would actually be a big improvement. I want to clarify I don't mean literally remove all resistances, no, a husk should resist a flamethrower, but -- yeah. Go back to the old system and do it right, but this 4000 category 90s RPG poo poo has gotta go. actually the more I read this post the more I like it tripwire hire this person
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Jun 13, 2016 00:08
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Here's how you make a good weapon diversification thing. Enemies take more damage from certain guns and not less from others. Make players feel stronger for using the right weapon instead of weaker for using the wrong one. That's all you need to do.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:20
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Or just have the same system KF1 did, with adjustments to accommodate perks and the like of course.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:32
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randombattle posted:Here's how you make a good weapon diversification thing. Yeah. A class being good while the other classes are normal is both more intuitive, AND more enjoyable for most people than "Okay this thing deals normal damage-I mean, is 'strong', and the rest range from mediocre to outright garbage". I said "most people" for a reason, but regardless of how sub human "Hardcore enthusiasts" claim it's great, that doesn't change the intuitive part. Even if zerker sucks at something, more people will use Zerker because everything else that sucks against something is having to pay for even more ammo wasted dealing with this. Gee do I want to pay for extra shotgun ammo due to buckshot proof trash, or do I want to swing an extra time for free? Section Z fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 00:38
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