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Trump should be speaking any minute. So, of course he'll be like 30 minutes late because he has lots of clocks. great clocks. big clocks. clocks that know time better than your clocks.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:29
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Liberal_L33t posted:wouldn't it be better if nobody ever did those things and the difficult, contentious questions about current events were perpetually sidelined in favor of an echo chamber of feel-good ideas we can all get behind? you think you're deflating the echo chamber but again this is just a flimsy framing to justify your attention seeking behavior and need to complain about muslims
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Jun 13, 2016 19:29
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Liberal_L33t posted:wouldn't it be better if nobody ever did those things and the difficult, contentious questions about current events were perpetually sidelined in favor of an echo chamber of feel-good ideas we can all get behind? What are you suggesting be done? Islam has been criticized in the media, for God's sake, we have Fox News. Is your theory that if enough of America shames the gently caress out of Islam, all of a sudden they'll all go "Okay, being Muslim isn't cool anymore, time to unradicalize." What would happen in your ideal scenario?
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Jun 13, 2016 19:30
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The list of things that kill people is truly staggering and does include a lot of things that we keep around as legal parts of our society for convenience or just because we enjoy them. The problem isn't that guns qua guns are somehow uniquely horrible, the problem is that we are (almost) uniquely irresponsible with regards to the laws and cultural norms surrounding them. To use the venerable  , there's bad drivers and stuff, but there isn't any widespread cultural pushback when you try to suggest that maybe people who can't pass the driving test or repeatedly exhibit irresponsibility should have their rights (privileges, I suppose) revoked. There's some bad stuff related to traffic laws like the use of stops or minor violations to specifically target the poor and minorities, but that's a problem with law enforcement we have to deal with as a general case sooner or later anyway (preferably sooner) so nobody tries to argue that it means we shouldn't have traffic laws generally.I really wish democrats would try really hard to sell basic licensing, registration, sale oversight laws on the basis that it's not any more or less than what we already do for cars and nobody (sane) thinks that the freedom to own or drive a car, or the freedom of movement more generally, is somehow uniquely under attack. I'm well aware that it wouldn't convince the Lavoy Finicums of the world, but it would at least make the policy conversation clearer and more intellectually honest (by which I mean that when one heard something like 'common sense gun restrictions,' it would be clearly anchored to something already widely acknowledged as common sense, rather than being a dogwhistle for either the right or the left depending on who's using it). Maybe Democrats are actually making an effort to keep this sort of stuff in the conversation and it's just the lovely media that's filtering it all out from reaching me, though?
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Jun 13, 2016 19:30
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Watching Trump give a prepared teleprompter speech like this is so jarring.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:33
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Epic High Five posted:lol, if you REALLY want strict gun laws and you want them tomorrow, just encourage minorities to express their 2nd amendment rights via a charity that will ship them guns and ammo. Funding and logistics isn't an issue because there'd be massive crackdowns as soon as you announced it so the org never actually has to exist Yea but that would mean you think more guns = better solves the problem. And I don't agree.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:33
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Liberal_L33t posted:wouldn't it be better if nobody ever did those things and the difficult, contentious questions about current events were perpetually sidelined in favor of an echo chamber of feel-good ideas we can all get behind? The difficult question you repeatedly ask us to consider is 'What is Islam is inherently bad and evil???'. We've considered the question, it was not difficult, the answer is no, and you're a bigot.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:34
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JerryLee posted:I really wish democrats would try really hard to sell basic licensing, registration, sale oversight laws on the basis that it's not any more or less than what we already do for cars and nobody (sane) thinks that the freedom to own or drive a car, or the freedom of movement more generally, is somehow uniquely under attack. I'm well aware that it wouldn't convince the Lavoy Finicums of the world, but it would at least make the policy conversation clearer and more intellectually honest (by which I mean that when one heard something like 'common sense gun restrictions,' it would be clearly anchored to something already widely acknowledged as common sense, rather than being a dogwhistle for either the right or the left depending on who's using it). Maybe Democrats are actually making an effort to keep this sort of stuff in the conversation and it's just the lovely media that's filtering it all out from reaching me, though? The NRA and their ilk know that this is the case, which is why they won't give an inch to their opponents. Gun control would have positive results, which would make future actions more politically viable, so they can't let us try any experiments at all.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:35
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Here we go. Donald really pushing his ban now.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:35
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Liberal_L33t posted:wouldn't it be better if nobody ever did those things and the difficult, contentious questions about current events were perpetually sidelined in favor of an echo chamber of feel-good ideas we can all get behind? political correctness gone mad theflyingorc posted:Has there been much more information on the person arrested in California? Somebody earlier in the thread seemed to suggest that he might not have been planning to murder anyone, but obviously Orlando is eating up all the media oxygen. I've been keeping an eye on the LA Times and there haven't been further updates. Howell had three assault rifles, high-capacity ammo, a 5-gallon bucket of Tannerite and other explosives, and camo gear in his car. He told cops he was going to attend the Pride parade but the reports of him saying he wanted to "harm" it were misreported, so it's not clear what his intentions or motives were. He's bisexual and was recently dating a guy, so homophobia seems unlikely as a motive. But he also recently has been in trouble for domestic disputes pointing guns at his neighbors and boyfriend: quote:On April 19, Howell pleaded guilty to misdemeanor intimidation, and prosecutors dropped the charge of pointing a firearm. Court records show he was sentenced to a year in state prison and placed on probation. Under the deal, he agreed to forfeit all weapons during his term of probation. No more new information. My guess would be a gun nut who may or may not have been about to go on a shooting spree, if I'm reading the article correctly he just got sentenced to a year in prison and probation with the condition he surrender his weapons. Not so mentally stable, just received a prison sentence and gov't gonna take his guns away. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 19:37
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No Butt Stuff posted:Here we go. Donald really pushing his ban now. We have to find a way to stop Muslims from entering the country through Muslim wombs, I guess? I'm interested in seeing if Trump gets a bump from this.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:37
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Pellisworth posted:one of these things is not like the other Statistically, according to opinion polls, a random person anywhere in the globe who is of the Islamic faith is more likely to believe that wife-beating is justified (source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-women-in-society/ ); this is, of course, assuming that you correctly see the belief that "wives should always be obedient to their husbands" as implicit justification for domestic violence. There certainly isn't an absolute correlation between these two things but the statistical correlation at least deserves mention without being shouted down.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:38
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JerryLee posted:The list of things that kill people is truly staggering and does include a lot of things that we keep around as legal parts of our society for convenience or just because we enjoy them. That's part of the problem. While those actually for reasonable restrictions could do this, then there are the ones that are for any restrictions they can get, effective or not, with the intended purpose of incremental bans. Those people might be a minority of gun control advocates, but they're the ones primarily writing legal proposals, and they're pretty bad about slipping up and accidentally admitting that they want guns and gun lovers out of their sight more than they want to actually reduce gun violence. In short, they're like any other social conservatives, just this time it's social conservatism for city folk instead of the rural flavor Republicans embrace. With them poisoning the well, and others sorta passively following along since they don't have a dog in the fight but generally caucus left, it's not a surprise there's no meaningful push for useful gun laws.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:38
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The Donald's verbiage when he talks about immigration is legitimately chilling.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:39
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Someone should tell him that this guy wasn't an immigrant. e: I like his "whose name I will not mention" because he clearly can't remember/say them correctly
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Jun 13, 2016 19:39
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Liberal_L33t posted:There certainly isn't an absolute correlation between these two things but the statistical correlation at least deserves mention without being shouted down. "look, i don't understand why you cowardly liberals won't rationally consider if correlation equals causation! it's this stupid groupthink again!"
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Jun 13, 2016 19:40
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Killer robot posted:they're pretty bad about slipping up and accidentally admitting that they want guns and gun lovers out of their sight more than they want to actually reduce gun violence. Oh yea?
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Jun 13, 2016 19:40
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"we want to be a free and open society [with closed borders]" e: he's now going away from the prompter
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Jun 13, 2016 19:41
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Liberal_L33t posted:Statistically, according to opinion polls, a random person anywhere in the globe who is of the Islamic faith is more likely to believe that wife-beating is justified (source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-women-in-society/ ); this is, of course, assuming that you correctly see the belief that "wives should always be obedient to their husbands" as implicit justification for domestic violence. It should be shouted down because it shows a complete lack of understanding of correlation and statistics. Taller people are on average smarter. <------- a true, retarded statement that should be shouted down when someone says it thinking they're contributing anything to any conversation
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Jun 13, 2016 19:41
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Someone repost that prediction list.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:42
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The logical conclusion of most gun advocates policies is that people and not equipment or tools should be licensed. 007 style. We regulate items to most preserve freedom.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:42
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RuanGacho posted:The logical conclusion of most gun advocates policies is that people and not equipment or tools should be licensed. 007 style. I'm cool with a well regulated militia of gun owners.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:43
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WampaLord posted:What are you suggesting be done? Islam has been criticized in the media, for God's sake, we have Fox News. So far public criticism of Islam and its doctrines has come almost exclusively from the right (I.E. Fox News). I think the cultural left should reclaim this issue and not slavishly devote themselves to squelching any criticism of Islam just because certain right wingers have their own problems with it, for different reasons. Actually, I do think that shaming literalist devotion to religion has been very productive and enormously successful in the United States over the past few decades. It's done quite a number on Christianity. My ideal scenario would be the left-leaning media in the U.S. discussing the issue of non-christian religions and regressive attitudes a bit more like Bill Maher, and a bit less like Ben Affleck or Reza Aslan.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:43
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Liberal_L33t posted:Statistically, according to opinion polls, a random person anywhere in the globe who is of the Islamic faith is more likely to believe that wife-beating is justified (source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-women-in-society/ ); this is, of course, assuming that you correctly see the belief that "wives should always be obedient to their husbands" as implicit justification for domestic violence. look, all I'm gonna say is you should listen to what Trump is saying right now and realize you're making the same argument he is just chew on that for a bit Crain posted:Someone repost that prediction list. TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Time to start a list of the things he's probably going to say: Trump also giving the NRA some love, definitely not going to push for any gun control reform.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:43
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Time to start a list of the things he's probably going to say: 100% already.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:45
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Pellisworth posted:look, all I'm gonna say is you should listen to what Trump is saying right now and realize you're making the same argument he is That's a terrible argument. I don't support Trump, why should I care about what he says or live in fear of taking a position that could be construed as being in line with him? Trump is also in favor of import tariffs; does that mean that no-one on the left should ever argue against free trade?
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Jun 13, 2016 19:46
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Liberal_L33t posted:So far public criticism of Islam and its doctrines has come almost exclusively from the right (I.E. Fox News). I think the cultural left should reclaim this issue and not slavishly devote themselves to squelching any criticism of Islam just because certain right wingers have their own problems with it, for different reasons. That seems like a cool thing to do but let's wait until we're sure that not everyone of a certain religion is put on a watch list/deported/put in concentration camps first.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:47
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Liberal_L33t posted:My ideal scenario would be the left-leaning media in the U.S. discussing the issue of non-christian religions and regressive attitudes a bit more like Bill Maher, and a bit less like Ben Affleck or Reza Aslan. Okay, great, so you're not proposing any practical solutions at all, just "We should be more bigoted towards Islam." I don't think that will help or fix anything, in fact, it will probably just piss off a lot of people.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:47
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Trump calling for the public release of all immigration records of any Muslim suspected of terrorism since 2001.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:48
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Crain posted:Trump calling for the public release of all immigration records of any Muslim suspected of terrorism since 2001. Jesus Christ...
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Jun 13, 2016 19:49
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When was the last time a Hillary or Bernie campaign trail speech got broadcast uninterrupted on all three main cable news channels start-to-almost-finish? Serious question. I can think of like a half dozen other times they've done this for Trump and maybe one time for Hillary if that. They're just playing straight into Big Don's tiny hands, every day.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:49
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Oh, also, more importantly: Trump's actual, stated position is that Muslim immigrants and refugees should be barred from entry into the country and/or deported, which I have never, ever said or even implied. This is manifestly not the same thing as my position, which is "the left's self-appointed guardians of anti-racism and anti-imperialism need to stop shouting down justified condemnation of the horrible beliefs of anybody who doesn't happen to be a christian". I mean, you all wouldn't have any problem declaring the average Ugandan who supports their government's "kill the gays" policy as an ignorant, backwards, patriarchal piece of poo poo, would you? They aren't white either. So why can't zealously regressive attitudes among muslims be condemned with the same fervor?
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Jun 13, 2016 19:50
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Wakko posted:B-b-b-but we all know democrats don't want to ban guns... they want common sense gun control! i hope this doesn't come across as victim blaming, but would any of the patrons having a gun in that nightclub realistically have changed the outcome?
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Jun 13, 2016 19:50
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Trump just called the allowing of Muslim immigrant/refugees -literally- a Trojan Horse.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:50
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Liberal_L33t posted:That's a terrible argument. I don't support Trump, why should I care about what he says or live in fear of taking a position that could be construed as being in line with him? Trump is also in favor of import tariffs; does that mean that no-one on the left should ever argue against free trade? The argument you have been making is essentially that this thread is too politically correct to criticize Islam. Trump is saying exactly that in his speech.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:51
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Doctor Butts posted:That seems like a cool thing to do but let's wait until we're sure that not everyone of a certain religion is put on a watch list/deported/put in concentration camps first. We're sure of this already because Trump isn't going to win the election. Stop using him as a bogeyman; it's just another silencing tactic.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:51
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Zelder posted:i hope this doesn't come across as victim blaming, but would any of the patrons having a gun in that nightclub realistically have changed the outcome? Well the off-duty cop with a gun that was at the club didn't change the outcome soooo
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Jun 13, 2016 19:51
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Zelder posted:i hope this doesn't come across as victim blaming, but would any of the patrons having a gun in that nightclub realistically have changed the outcome? They did. There were armed guards outside. So the result we got was the scenario with armed minorities.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:51
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Zelder posted:i hope this doesn't come across as victim blaming, but would any of the patrons having a gun in that nightclub realistically have changed the outcome? not at all, the shooter got in a gunfight with a cop and slayed him before going into the nightclub so if a trained, sober, alert guard couldn't do much there's no way a drunk, distracted person would be able to accurately identify and target the shooter in a dark crowded room
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Jun 13, 2016 19:52
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Liberal_L33t posted:Oh, also, more importantly: Trump's actual, stated position is that Muslim immigrants and refugees should be barred from entry into the country and/or deported, which I have never, ever said or even implied. Yo is anyone actually shouting down justified condemnation or is that a thing you say to make yourself feel like you're victimized? I mean god drat that's not too far from going around and saying every Muslim must condemn every act of terror or they are just as bad as the terrorists.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:52
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