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Cojawfee posted:Check out the vive Reddit. There's people saying they will refuse to buy any game these devs ever make. That they will pirate the game when it comes out. People were saying they wish they could get refunds for games they already played because of this. Yeah I mean I realized that after I posted, but people have overreacted on either side for just about anything involving VR so I don't really think that's news to anyone, or that anyone should take those people seriously.
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Jun 14, 2016 15:37
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Lucid Dream posted:Absolutely, I can't speak for everyone but I know how hard it is to make/fund a game so I don't blame the developers one bit. I blame Oculus for giving them an offer that they can't refuse. I think this is all getting a bit melodramatic, they offered a tiny dev a bunch of money to keep the lights on, and let them keep making games in the future no matter how this game performs once it hits. They didn't threatened to put a drill through their kneecaps or something.
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Jun 14, 2016 15:47
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Randomosity posted:"Wow. I can't believe Oculus isn't letting their main competitor control their ecosystem and make buckets of money from software sales." - People shocked at Oculus acting like a business, I guess. Oculus is acting like no PC peripheral maker has ever done; I don't need to buy games based on the brand of my monitor. Also have completely done a 180 of all promises since the kickstarter. Usually businesses show a little bit more respect for their customers especially when we are talking a purchase worth 600$.
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Jun 14, 2016 15:51
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Tom Guycot posted:I think this is all getting a bit melodramatic, they offered a tiny dev a bunch of money to keep the lights on, and let them keep making games in the future no matter how this game performs once it hits. They didn't threatened to put a drill through their kneecaps or something.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:03
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Fredrik1 posted:Oculus is acting like no PC peripheral maker has ever done; I don't need to buy games based on the brand of my monitor. Also have completely done a 180 of all promises since the kickstarter. Oculus does not consider themselves a peripheral maker. They're not acting like a company that makes monitors because they aren't, nor do they want to be, a company that makes monitors you stick on your head. They want to be a VR platform company, and their strategy involves deep integration between hardware, software, and content. Maybe it's anti-consumer (for consumers who purchase competing products), and maybe it's a bad business move for them long term, but the "but monitors!" defense is silly.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:10
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You'd say the same when suddenly half games only worked on a samsung monitor right? Or a radeon GPU? Or, worse, a razer keyboard? A peripheral is a peripheral, just because Facebook doesn't want it to be doesn't change that.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:13
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Lucid Dream posted:Absolutely melodramatic, but Oculus is absolutely still making them an offer that they can't/won't refuse regardless of the historical/pop-culture use of the phrase. The Croteam folks mentioned that it was super hard for them to turn down the Oculus money, and they are a big studio with existing popular IP compared to the indies that Oculus is going around and locking down. I don't know, I know its sure annoying as hell when you can't use something for exclusivity reasons, but at the same time its hard for me to see all this as bad, and I'm sure none of the devs do. My brother and a team of friends worked hard for a good while to put out a well done little game on all the mobile platforms (and as of this month on steam too, buy your copy today!!), and like most it didn't really earn them a lot of money. If someone offered them a sack of cash to make it just for one device, they'd all be working on game #2, right now instead of still at their day jobs. So, yeah its hard to really see anything oculus is doing as bad when its helping out developers to keep making the next thing, at the expense of some players not getting to play it for a few months. EDIT: Truga posted:You'd say the same when suddenly half games only worked on a samsung monitor right? Or a radeon GPU? Or, worse, a razer keyboard? Your monitor or keyboard doesn't require it's own unique massively optimized software stack and well designed games just to function, let alone function well and give you a good experience. Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 16:14
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Tom Guycot posted:I don't know, I know its sure annoying as hell when you can't use something for exclusivity reasons, but at the same time its hard for me to see all this as bad, and I'm sure none of the devs do. My brother and a team of friends worked hard for a good while to put out a well done little game on all the mobile platforms (and as of this month on steam too, buy your copy today!!), and like most it didn't really earn them a lot of money. If someone offered them a sack of cash to make it just for one device, they'd all be working on game #2, right now instead of still at their day jobs. So, yeah its hard to really see anything oculus is doing as bad when its helping out developers to keep making the next thing, at the expense of some players not getting to play it for a few months. For me at least it is an ideological issue, and my worry about the future of the VR paradigm as a whole. If I could choose between losing out on a few launch-window games in exchange for no exclusives on PC for the remainder of the future of VR... Well it isn't a hard choice. Lucid Dream fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 16:18
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Lucid Dream posted:For me at least it is an ideological issue, and my worry about the future of the VR paradigm as a whole. If I could choose between losing out on a few launch-window games in exchange for no exclusives on PC for the remainder of the future of VR... Well it isn't a hard choice. Well, I respect your opinion friend, but thats where we part ways. EDIT: Lucid Dream posted:Edit: Right now we have 3 major VR headset manufacturers, and only one of them is locking out everyone else from their store, which stacks the deck in their favor in a way that manipulates people into buying their headset based on factors other than the quality of the headset itself. Can this really be said with a straight face? Only one? Sony is letting all their psvr games be released cross platform? Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 16:21
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This is all just some market strategist's idea of how to get a foothold into a market that valve is dominating. They are trying to get people locked into their store. Mostly people who aren't heavily invested in steam. I wouldn't mind so much if they would just let other hardware use their store as well. I don't know if they plan to make money with the next gen rift or not, but I'd figure the real money is in running a storefront. They'd make more money and be the target of less hate if they let vive users use the store. Anti oculus people would have less of a leg to stand on with "they are buying up all the games" with "yeah but you can use your vive on their store." You'd think they would want all the good will they could get after how this year is going. Unless they think they can get away with marketing to all the people who aren't already ingrained in the VR community.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:22
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I wonder how much community goodwill Oculus would buy back if they just said gently caress it and implemented their own ReVive-like wrapper to let Vive users play games from the Oculus store.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:24
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Tom Guycot posted:Well, I respect your opinion friend, but thats where we part ways. You can't put PSVR and the Rift and Vive on the same platform. One requires a PS4 to run, the other two can run each others' software with a hack someone made on reddit, then re-made again when it was broken because of an update. It can be done but Oculus chooses not to and won't explain why because they know everyone would call them out. It's ok to call out an unfeeling company out on things, it's cool and good. It's just business 
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Jun 14, 2016 16:32
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Helter Skelter posted:I wonder how much community goodwill Oculus would buy back if they just said gently caress it and implemented their own ReVive-like wrapper to let Vive users play games from the Oculus store. It's probably too late for that. They've set the precedent now of "we decide what headsets you can use with our store titles, not you", and that's always going to leave people suspicious of lock-in in gen 2. e: I think they'd need to make their SDK as open as OpenVR is for people to trust them with that again.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:33
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Tom Guycot posted:Well, I respect your opinion friend, but thats where we part ways. Well I edited that out because I didn't think about Sony when I wrote it, but that doesn't change the fact that Oculus is manipulating people into buying their headset with the threat of missing out on some games, its just that Sony is also doing that 
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Jun 14, 2016 16:34
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Tom Guycot posted:Your monitor or keyboard doesn't require it's own unique massively optimized software stack and well designed games just to function, let alone function well and give you a good experience. Every device you plug into a PC has a driver. A VR headset is just a monitor, it's not a console, we already have a library that works with both headsets because they are almost identical, the rift has software DRM to prevent you from playing any VR game on anything other than an Oculus headset.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:37
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Cojawfee posted:This is all just some market strategist's idea of how to get a foothold into a market that valve is dominating. They are trying to get people locked into their store. Mostly people who aren't heavily invested in steam. I wouldn't mind so much if they would just let other hardware use their store as well. I don't know if they plan to make money with the next gen rift or not, but I'd figure the real money is in running a storefront. They'd make more money and be the target of less hate if they let vive users use the store. I think the problem is they really really don't want to just have a wrapper for steamVR work with their store. The moment they do that every single cheap horrible Chinese clone manufacturer's stuttering 60hz crap factory that works on steamVR and is coming out in a rush next year, will be able to use the oculus store and at that moment they've lost all quality control. Now, whether this means they actually will work with other quality headset manufacturers to add native OVR support, or they stick to trying to be Apple remains to be seen. Its certainly clear that valve has no intention of letting the vive ever consider native OVR support though, even if oculus (for the sake of argument) wants to. It seems obvious though why they aren't going with the wrapper, and I can't really fault them for wanted to keep an experience thats airtight end to end up. Even personally I try using steamVR and its just finicky and janky and it crashes all the time, games don't load right, and just is a total mess. Compare to home, which while severely lacking in features currently, has been a flawless user experience thats never once crashed, always works and always works perfectly. Maybe steamVR works perfectly with a vive though, but that just reinforces the idea of quality control when you just let a wrapper to something you have no control over run wild. EDIT: Lucid Dream posted:Well I edited that out because I didn't think about Sony when I wrote it, but that doesn't change the fact that Oculus is manipulating people into buying their headset with the threat of missing out on some games, its just that Sony is also doing that Fair enough, it wasn't edited out yet when I quoted it. Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 16:37
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Tom Guycot posted:I think the problem is they really really don't want to just have a wrapper for steamVR work with their store. The moment they do that every single cheap horrible Chinese clone manufacturer's stuttering 60hz crap factory that works on steamVR and is coming out in a rush next year, will be able to use the oculus store and at that moment they've lost all quality control. Since when is this a problem? Which other online store limits their customers with software DRM?
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Jun 14, 2016 16:45
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Truga posted:You'd say the same when suddenly half games only worked on a samsung monitor right? Or a radeon GPU? Or, worse, a razer keyboard? This analogy doesn't really work in a world where I have to buy specific monitors from specific manufacturers to use adaptive sync with my choice of graphics card.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:49
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Tom Guycot posted:Yeah, thats what I'm hoping they can avoid. I want someone playing as the captain, giving me an order, to actually mean something and not just be fluff that I can ignore to do my own thing. Something like... what was that old FPS mod where like, you could play as different classes and one was the 'commander' or something, and they had an RTS type view of the game so if they gave you an order to move somewhere, it was probably for a good reason and you should follow? Well there was the old school Battlezone game (Not the wireframe ones, the Activison Battlezone 1 and 2) which was a good mix of FPS and RTS with some funky AI (especially in 2 unfortunately, though there are some killer mods for that one still). Then there is Battlefield 2 which had 1 guy sort of elect to be the Commander, and had a good overhead strategy map of the battlefield, can assign orders for squads to attack/defend/etc, and drop air supplies where he sees fit. With a good one, and a team of non retards that actually followed the orders a bit, you could win pub matches all day. When you got on teams that had a terrible one, or one of the servers that forced the commander to sit in the back and "command" uselessly (there was never a need for the commander to just sit in the back and be useless outside of just staring at a map) then you were pretty much guaranteed to loose. They removed the commander in all the BF games and Pub matches are always crap ever since. (That and unlocks. The reason Overwatch is so much fun and better is because you don't have to poopsock it from launch day to get ahead and stay competitive to everyone else.) We will see what they make the Commanders/Captains do as if they do it right, he can be a very useful asset, but I guess we will have to wait and see.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:01
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Fredrik1 posted:Since when is this a problem? It will be a problem when cheap headsets make it onto Alibaba and people start snatching them up. Chances are they will be made in a way that allows them to work on SteamVR. If Oculus adds a SteamVR wrapper, it implies that they are also supporting the cheap headsets and will have to answer support tickets when these headsets don't work well with their games. Oculus has always tried to paint themselves as a guaranteed experience if you meet their specs. The only way they can guarantee this is if they add Vive support to their SDK themselves to ensure it works properly. People would be upset if they tried to use their Vive in the oculus store but certain things didn't work because controls didn't properly match up, which is exactly what happens when trying to use a rift in SteamVR. You have to use a steam or xbox controller to access anything. Though if you use an xbox controller, you permanently lose access to the back button in any game launched through SteamVR because that's the button they use for bringing up the steam interface.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:01
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Fredrik1 posted:A VR headset is just a monitor, it's not a console, we already have a library that works with both headsets because they are almost identical, the rift has software DRM to prevent you from playing any VR game on anything other than an Oculus headset. This. The only fundamental difference between the software stack for the Rift and the software stack for the Vive is the code for the tracking (constellation vs lighthouse), which is all pretty standard stuff.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:04
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The cheap Chinese headsets are just going to come with something like revive with the devices to play Oculus games anyway lmao
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Jun 14, 2016 17:09
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KakerMix posted:The cheap Chinese headsets are just going to come with something like revive with the devices to play Oculus games anyway lmao Yes, but they won't be officially supported and Oculus won't have to solve any problems involved in using them.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:10
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EdEddnEddy posted:Well there was the old school Battlezone game (Not the wireframe ones, the Activison Battlezone 1 and 2) which was a good mix of FPS and RTS with some funky AI (especially in 2 unfortunately, though there are some killer mods for that one still). I wish I could remember what game I'm thinking of, it had like aliens vs humans, it was like a class based thing or something that ripped off aliens. The more I picture this star trek game done right, the more excited I get at the idea. And hey, even if its bland, maybe there will be plenty of clones that do it right. How great would it be to have multiplayer battles, crew vs crew, your console exploding into sparks while someone in a red shirt off in the corner falls over dead in a cloud of smoke?
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Jun 14, 2016 17:19
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I, too, think it's actually good to solicit preorders under the pretense that the game will be available on a given system and then completely gently caress those people over when a bigger wheelbarrow of money rolls in the front door
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Jun 14, 2016 17:26
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Cojawfee posted:Yes, but they won't be officially supported and Oculus won't have to solve any problems involved in using them. Lol if you believe this is the reason "exclusives are good for consumers", Oculus wants control like Valve or Apple has control and tell consumers half-truths to get them to go along with it when they ask questions. If something like Revive becomes commonplace Oculus loses no matter if they officially support it or not. I suspect at that time Oculus will bite the bullet and start selling to non-Rift headsets.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:33
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Tom Guycot posted:I wish I could remember what game I'm thinking of, it had like aliens vs humans, it was like a class based thing or something that ripped off aliens. The more I picture this star trek game done right, the more excited I get at the idea. And hey, even if its bland, maybe there will be plenty of clones that do it right. How great would it be to have multiplayer battles, crew vs crew, your console exploding into sparks while someone in a red shirt off in the corner falls over dead in a cloud of smoke? i think you're thinking of natural selection
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Jun 14, 2016 17:34
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There was a quote from someone at Oculus making implications about HTC/Valve not wanting to do the necessary things to get Vive to work with Oculus Home. Might have been a Palmer post on reddit or something. Anyone remember/got a link to that?Cojawfee posted:Yes, but they won't be officially supported and Oculus won't have to solve any problems involved in using them. They could (I imagine) allow a Revive-style wrapper, but they're not going to. Their actual reasoning seems to be based on their obsession with creating the perfect VR experience, a company philosophy that is terrified of killing off the mass market appeal by allowing non-curated content. What's insane about that is the context in which they're trying to carry it out, i.e. the ridiculously elite niche consumer who can afford/is interested in getting into VR right now. And additionally, the fact that a fully-fledged mass market VR product isn't on their horizon, in fact the only thing close to it in the near future is what their greatest competitor is releasing in October. Basically the whole thing doesn't add up right now. Maybe it will in a couple of years. Wish they didn't feel they have to be cunts to the early-adopter crowd in the process.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:42
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Tweak posted:i think you're thinking of natural selection Yeah, that looks like the right game, and hey even made a sequel apparently. Thanks!
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Jun 14, 2016 17:44
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Surprisingly with all this anger, there aren't really any  for exclusives; only stuff ripped from the steam store.I'm sad that they removed the hundreds of tech demos / concepts from the store. Don't want any half-baked stuff on there I guess! Bhodi fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 17:49
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KakerMix posted:Lol if you believe this is the reason "exclusives are good for consumers", Oculus wants control like Valve or Apple has control and tell consumers half-truths to get them to go along with it when they ask questions. If something like Revive becomes commonplace Oculus loses no matter if they officially support it or not. I suspect at that time Oculus will bite the bullet and start selling to non-Rift headsets. I never said exclusives are good for consumers. I've repeatedly said I would rather buy a game in steam than the oculus store.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:55
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El Grillo posted:There was a quote from someone at Oculus making implications about HTC/Valve not wanting to do the necessary things to get Vive to work with Oculus Home. Might have been a Palmer post on reddit or something. Anyone remember/got a link to that?
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Jun 14, 2016 18:02
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Helter Skelter posted:Yeah, it was Palmer. The gist of the argument was that they wanted to support the Vive directly rather than going through a wrapper (as SteamVR does for Rift support). Doing this would have supposedly required some low-level hardware information from HTC/Valve that they (understandably) didn't feel like giving out, and their response was basically "yo, just go through SteamVR". And of course Oculus are equally unwilling to let the Rift work natively on SteamVR. It's basically a fight over which store comes up when the user hits the system button, and neither side is willing to give that up.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:14
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Helter Skelter posted:Yeah, it was Palmer. The gist of the argument was that they wanted to support the Vive directly rather than going through a wrapper (as SteamVR does for Rift support). Doing this would have supposedly required some low-level hardware information from HTC/Valve that they (understandably) didn't feel like giving out, and their response was basically "yo, just go through SteamVR". Yeah but is Palmer's word worth anything or not? I get confused on if what he says actually relates to Oculus in anyway. Depending on context you get different answers, it's all v. confusing.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:15
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NRVNQSR posted:And of course Oculus are equally unwilling to let the Rift work natively on SteamVR. SteamVR doesn't launch when you press a Vive system button. In fact, nothing happens when you press the Vive system button when SteamVR isn't loaded. 
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Jun 14, 2016 18:23
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KakerMix posted:Yeah but is Palmer's word worth anything or not? I get confused on if what he says actually relates to Oculus in anyway. Depending on context you get different answers, it's all v. confusing.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:50
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the XBOX/360/One and PS4 just x86 PCs with artificial limitations on what software they can run and what peripherals they will accept? What I'm saying is: the PC game market has been splintered by mere peripherals for some time now. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, only that Oculus is following the industry norm.
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Jun 14, 2016 19:52
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sliderule posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the XBOX/360/One and PS4 just x86 PCs with artificial limitations on what software they can run and what peripherals they will accept? Sure, but just because the status quo on consoles is exclusives left and right doesn't mean that we should be happy about Oculus infecting the PC with the same garbage. I don't need to buy a EA monitor or a Razer keyboard to play certain games.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:03
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sliderule posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the XBOX/360/One and PS4 just x86 PCs with artificial limitations on what software they can run and what peripherals they will accept? If you consider an entire PC a peripheral, I guess.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:04
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http://uploadvr.com/oculus-denies-seeking-exclusivity-serious-sam-croteam-responds/ Sweet sweet drama
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Jun 14, 2016 20:07
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