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ExtraNoise posted:While I like Stellaris, I think HoI4 is a much stronger game right out of the box. It's fun and engaging and feels complete and definitely worth saving some pennies to pick it up. I'm playing as Australia in DH right now, going submarines + naval bombers so I can contribute to the war effort by targeting Japan's shipping and navy. Probably the biggest threat will be their air force. Unfortunately the Indirect Approach tree was locked out from the start, so I can't min-max my subs. Hopefully my stack of 20+ will be strong enough to last.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:32
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Phlegmish posted:I'm playing as Australia in DH right now, going submarines + naval bombers so I can contribute to the war effort by targeting Japan's shipping and navy. Probably the biggest threat will be their air force. You have to abandon the techs you have in Fleet in Being before you can go to Indirect Approach.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:46
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corn in the bible posted:You can definitely tell that hoi4 took three years to make and stellaris maybe one Stellaris had 3 years of development time too, development apparently started on both around similar times. Doesn't say anything about the size of the dev/testing teams though. It definitely feels extremely underdeveloped by comparison.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:59
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Gort posted:You have to abandon the techs you have in Fleet in Being before you can go to Indirect Approach. How do you abandon techs?
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Jun 14, 2016 18:02
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Phlegmish posted:How do you abandon techs?
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Jun 14, 2016 18:04
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Phlegmish posted:How do you abandon techs? Select the latest one in the tree you have researched and an "Abandon Doctrine" button should show up where you'd normally start research. You need to work your way backwards through the tree until Indirect Approach becomes available.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:04
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Stellaris had 3 years of development time too, development apparently started on both around similar times. Doesn't say anything about the size of the dev/testing teams though. It definitely feels extremely underdeveloped by comparison. I remember at least 2 HOI4 preview episodes on Three Moves Ahead. Both were quite a while ago and both were very critical on the state of the game at the time. Since then Paradox seems to have taken at least some of their criticisms on board. IIRC HOI4 was originally scheduled for release last fall. Conversely there doesn't seem to have been a lot of previews for stellaris except for the ones just before launch. What I'm saying is that HOI4 seems to have gotten more external feedback and playtesting by journalists than stellaris. Why this is the case I don't know but to my mind at least it's a significant difference between both games' development cycle.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:26
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Stellaris had 3 years of development time too, development apparently started on both around similar times. Doesn't say anything about the size of the dev/testing teams though. It definitely feels extremely underdeveloped by comparison.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:29
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double nine posted:What I'm saying is that HOI4 seems to have gotten more external feedback and playtesting by journalists than stellaris. Why this is the case I don't know but to my mind at least it's a significant difference between both games' development cycle.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:36
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TheMcD posted:Select the latest one in the tree you have researched and an "Abandon Doctrine" button should show up where you'd normally start research. You need to work your way backwards through the tree until Indirect Approach becomes available. I don't see that button anywhere:  I don't see it for any other tech I click on, either. Am I in the wrong screen? e: found it for one tech but I was clicking too fast and now I can't find it anymore Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 18:51
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Phlegmish posted:I don't see that button anywhere: No, that should be the right screen. I don't know if you can abandon naval doctrines or not, I simply assumed you could because you could with military ones. Try the same thing with military doctrines and see if you can do it there. If you can, then I guess you just can't abandon naval doctrines and you're stuck with what you've got.
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Jun 14, 2016 18:54
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I stopped researching Advanced Naval Invasion and now I can abandon naval techs. Apparently you just can't be researching anything on the same screen. Japan better get ready Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 18:58
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Phlegmish posted:I stopped researching Improved Naval Invasion and now I can abandon naval techs. Ah, right, that makes sense - to ensure that you're not researching anything that requires the tech you are going to abandon.
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Jun 14, 2016 19:01
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Stellaris had 3 years of development time too, development apparently started on both around similar times. Doesn't say anything about the size of the dev/testing teams though. It definitely feels extremely underdeveloped by comparison. I wouldn't say that Stellaris and HoI4 total development time (manhours aside) are entirely comparable, because just think of the design stage. HoI4 iterates on the previous games of the series where Stellaris starts off fresh. HoI has systems already in place, the ideal balance is already known, things have been tried before and there's knowledge as to what works and what doesn't. Stellaris definitely needed more work and you could question whether those 3 years were spent the right way or not, but you can't just put it next to HoI4 and compare it based off them having the same calendar dev time, as much as it sucks that Stellaris isn't as good as it should've been out of the box.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:49
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corn in the bible posted:Also space 4xes are a dime a dozen "Other than a few neat ideas, it's just like all other space 4xes" is what i was originally going to type, until I realized that that statement in and of itself makes it exactly like all other space 4xes. I just want a space game that does something unique/different and doesn't try to be MOO2 but better
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Jun 14, 2016 21:07
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The ironic thing is that in being MOO2 But Better you add a bunch of complexity and lose the simplicity that is the large part of what MOO had going for it
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Jun 14, 2016 21:25
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Viral Warfare posted:"Other than a few neat ideas, it's just like all other space 4xes" is what i was originally going to type, until I realized that that statement in and of itself makes it exactly like all other space 4xes. I just want a space game that does something unique/different and doesn't try to be MOO2 but better if they had gone with a more traditional pdox style it would have actually been a lot more interesting madeup alien kingdoms with madeup (but actually defined) history would be cooler than procgen empires, which every 4x already has and has been done better anyway
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Jun 14, 2016 21:32
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"Except for the ways in which X differs from Y, X is the same as Y" is a statement that contains zero information.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:55
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lets just agree that hoi4 is good and talk about that
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Jun 14, 2016 21:58
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Dibujante posted:"Except for the ways in which X differs from Y, X is the same as Y" is a statement that contains zero information. But the statements so far have also included the size of (X-Y), which is useful information. "Other than a few pixels, the images are the same" conveys a very different meaning than "Other than the shape of the face, color of the eyes, clothing, background, body type and actions depicted, the images are the same". The set of meaningful differences between Stellaris and other Space 4X games is not very large.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:58
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corn in the bible posted:lets just agree that hoi4 is good and talk about that can't. Don't have it.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:14
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I feel like Stellaris half heartedly included a bunch of "paradox" features like pops and vassals and warscore but they had none of the depth that makes them good in the games they are from. Like a lot of stuff like cassus belli, warscore, etc really may as well have not been there because they didnt matter. Like named wars. A minor feature that adds flavor in other games but in stellaris it doesnt matter what wars are named because wars arent really fought for any reason
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Jun 14, 2016 22:23
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best war name/type is the War of Honor, imo
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Jun 14, 2016 22:37
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corn in the bible posted:if they had gone with a more traditional pdox style it would have actually been a lot more interesting The thing I really love about EU4 is how it it's weirdly micromanagement free for such a complicated game, and Stellaris kind of walks that back with the planetary tiles and stuff
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Jun 14, 2016 22:49
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I think it's a great disservice to HOI4 to call it 'HOI3 with the edges sanded down'. Back when we did post mortems of HOI3 my view was that the main problem (aside from the obvious game production issues) was that the game was torn between player-as-supreme-leader and player-as-commander-of-armed-forces and as a result the player had too much to do, couldn't do any of it well, and none of it was fun - so everything inevitably got handed over to the AI and you were no longer playing anything. The other problem was that HOI3 had lots of systems which viewed in isolation looked like good ideas, but never really interacted with each other and so were never able to become more than the sum of their parts. HOI4 resolves that conflict firmly in favour of 'the player is the supreme leader and makes grand strategy decisions' and in my view it's pretty clear that that fundamental underpinning theme is what provides direction and focus to all the different systems and brings them together in a way HOI3 never could.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:09
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Speaking about EU4, I dont know if people oputside Brazil can buy there, but nuuven is having a EU4 sale with pretty good prices http://www.nuuvem.com/promo/especial-europa-universalis?utm_source=mailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Ori-and-the-Blind-Forest-14-06
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Jun 14, 2016 23:10
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I believe you can buy from Nuuvem even if you're not a favela dweller.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:27
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Phi230 posted:I feel like Stellaris half heartedly included a bunch of "paradox" features like pops and vassals and warscore but they had none of the depth that makes them good in the games they are from. Like a lot of stuff like cassus belli, warscore, etc really may as well have not been there because they didnt matter. Someone linked to this in the Stellaris thread and I think that it's a pretty good read, it makes it sound like they spent maybe 2 years figuring out the game's identity crisis and making the UI and related items work well, then all of the actually important stuff to do with systems and balance got churned over in the last 6 months and mulched down into a "boring but kind of works" implementation. Look how many times they said that they had a feature removed or seriously overhauled close to release.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:38
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corn in the bible posted:if they had gone with a more traditional pdox style it would have actually been a lot more interesting Established empires and borders and stuff would be cool, but I think procgen empires are a huge step forward from most 4x, the problem is just the way they're executed is bland more than that procgen will innately be boring. Paradox just needs to flesh it out with more events and flavor etc. Really, looking at CK2 it might as well be procedurally generated and it'd be practically the same game. Sure there are important figures I'll recognize, but on the whole I have no idea who Count Fuckhead of Nowhereland is, it's the emergent narrative that makes him important- when he sleeps with my wife, tries to steal my horse, when I discover his daughter has a title I want etc. The problem is Stellaris doesn't have any of those kinds of events/ interactions to actually make the aliens notable.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:58
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Koramei posted:Established empires and borders and stuff would be cool, but I think procgen empires are a huge step forward from most 4x, the problem is just the way they're executed is bland more than that procgen will innately be boring. Paradox just needs to flesh it out with more events and flavor etc. A cool DLC feature would be where it creates a universe, simulates it for some number of years and then you can choose an empire to control.
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Jun 15, 2016 00:11
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I'm kind of curious as to what Paradox's expansion model for HoI4 will be like. Their other games are fairly obvious, there were/are a plethora of areas for CK2, EU4, and Stellaris to grow in, but WWII is a pretty well-defined thing and there are only so many ways you can expand on that specific conflict while still maintaining a balanced, cohesive product. Like, I can see one major WWII-focused expansion, maybe two tops. I wonder if they're going to start getting into alt-history stuff.
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Jun 15, 2016 01:15
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I'm kind of curious as to what Paradox's expansion model for HoI4 will be like. Their other games are fairly obvious, there were/are a plethora of areas for CK2, EU4, and Stellaris to grow in, but WWII is a pretty well-defined thing and there are only so many ways you can expand on that specific conflict while still maintaining a balanced, cohesive product. Like, I can see one major WWII-focused expansion, maybe two tops. I wonder if they're going to start getting into alt-history stuff. Espionage DLC is another obvious one, along with a WW1 scenario. Gameplay overhauls with some DLC-only systems like EU4 are other candidates. These are the most dangerous for a cohesive, balanced product, so I hope that only comes up late in the game's lifeline. Specific scenarios like HoI2 and DH had as well, possibly expanding the techtree for them. Probably nothing hilarious like the Arab-Israeli wars in HOI2, but something like scenarios for Russian Civil War, Korean War or Operation Unthinkable are good candidates.
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Jun 15, 2016 01:23
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I'm kind of curious as to what Paradox's expansion model for HoI4 will be like. Their other games are fairly obvious, there were/are a plethora of areas for CK2, EU4, and Stellaris to grow in, but WWII is a pretty well-defined thing and there are only so many ways you can expand on that specific conflict while still maintaining a balanced, cohesive product. Like, I can see one major WWII-focused expansion, maybe two tops. I wonder if they're going to start getting into alt-history stuff. Well, they did scrap EvW so they could steal the idea and sell it as DLC, duh.
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Jun 15, 2016 01:25
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ZearothK posted:Espionage DLC is another obvious one, along with a WW1 scenario.
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Jun 15, 2016 01:32
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I'm kind of curious as to what Paradox's expansion model for HoI4 will be like. Their other games are fairly obvious, there were/are a plethora of areas for CK2, EU4, and Stellaris to grow in, but WWII is a pretty well-defined thing and there are only so many ways you can expand on that specific conflict while still maintaining a balanced, cohesive product. Like, I can see one major WWII-focused expansion, maybe two tops. I wonder if they're going to start getting into alt-history stuff. Focus trees and unit models for every country - that's about 100 DLCs right there. 41, 42, 43, 44 start dates. Scenarios. WW1. WW3. Pacific War expansion. I can't see them running out of ideas for a long time.
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Jun 15, 2016 01:35
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They sure as hell gotta fix the pacific/navy
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Jun 15, 2016 01:37
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Theyll sell focus tree dlc obviously they already said so
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Jun 15, 2016 02:10
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GrossMurpel posted:Well, they did scrap EvW so they could steal the idea and sell it as DLC, duh. This is what I hope for, or just one WW1 DLC and one 1947-77 DLC with more focus on politics, indiependence, coups and smaller conflicts. All alt-history ofcourse.
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Jun 15, 2016 07:56
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Focus trees are obvious, but those aren't major expansions, are they? Selling a pack of focus trees for various Asian countries is a bit different from something like Common Sense. I just wonder how many of those bigger expansion packs they can come up with.
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Jun 15, 2016 08:10
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GrossMurpel posted:Well, they did scrap EvW so they could steal the idea and sell it as DLC, duh.
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