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Brainiac Five posted:Well, thanks for providing your drool-stained idiot definition. The actual definition refers to people who were associated with communist parties and labor unions without being members, like Woody Guthrie. Then right-wingers started using it for anyone to the left of Bob Taft, leading finally to you. Why is it that you warmed over 70s era communists keep acting like you've won some kind of argument? When is the last time communists or communism were right about anything important?
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Jun 14, 2016 21:14
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gobbagool posted:Why is it that you warmed over 70s era communists keep acting like you've won some kind of argument? When is the last time communists or communism were right about anything important? Oh man, "70s era"? I'm proud to be compared to the Black Panthers, but I find it a little inappropriate.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:16
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Brainiac Five posted:Oh man, "70s era"? I'm proud to be compared to the Black Panthers, but I find it a little inappropriate. Wow talk about hearing what you want to hear. You're not fit to carry the Black Panthers' jock, in any sense
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Jun 14, 2016 21:24
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gobbagool posted:Why is it that you warmed over 70s era communists keep acting like you've won some kind of argument? When is the last time communists or communism were right about anything important? "anything important" says someone who probably considered the 2008 financial crisis as being a completely unpreventable but mild mishap.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:25
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gobbagool posted:Wow talk about hearing what you want to hear. You're not fit to carry the Black Panthers' jock, in any sense I don't know any other "70s-era communists" that are at all relevant to anything. Maybe it was a lovely attempt at a Deng or Brezhnev burn? Maybe you had large parts of your brain destroyed in a horrible accident, rendering your speech and writing incoherent?
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Jun 14, 2016 21:27
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Wait Brainiac Five were you a member of the Red Fraction?
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Jun 14, 2016 21:28
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Tesseraction posted:Wait Brainiac Five were you a member of the Red Fraction? Oh poo poo. I've been found out. Yes, it's true, I, Ulrike Meinhof, faked my suicide and escaped from prison to the Bonn underground.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:29
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Tesseraction posted:Wait Brainiac Five were you a member of the Red Fraction? He's posting in D&D, duh
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Jun 14, 2016 21:36
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gobbagool posted:He's posting in D&D, duh What was your name before?
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Jun 14, 2016 21:36
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Brainiac Five posted:
This doesn't follow. If imperialism is bad because it destroys autonomy and democracy, then what is important is not which is the most successful imperialism, but which imperialism does the most harm to autonomy and democracy. Misunderstanding this leads to mistakes like the OP where the United States being the most successful imperialists is conflated with them being the worst imperialists Brainiac Five posted:I mean, in practical terms it's nuts to say that countries like Japan, the UK, and Germany where the US has a permanent large-scale military presence "couldn't be invaded and occupied" because, in a very real sense, they already are occupied. They are only occupied in the sense that the US has a long term military presence there. This ignores the more salient point that said military presence is there with permission from the governments of said countries and if that permission was withdrawn the United States would leave. The U.S. is no more occupying those countries than the UK is occupying Canada.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:37
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Brainiac Five posted:I don't know any other "70s-era communists" that are at all relevant to anything. Maybe it was a lovely attempt at a Deng or Brezhnev burn? Maybe you had large parts of your brain destroyed in a horrible accident, rendering your speech and writing incoherent? So much anger! Yeah I guess I'd be mad too if I'd dedicated so much emotional energy to a political and economic philosophy that's been dead for more than 25 years, spending hours writing carehard posts about how great North Korea is
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Jun 14, 2016 21:38
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Brainiac Five posted:Those states are all part of the American empire, however. If we use Lenin's definition of (modern) imperialism as focused around the financial exploitation, Western Europe and Japan are both highly complicit in the financial exploitation of the global south, especially sub-Saharan Africa. Turkey is a member of NATO. India has aligned itself within the US global order. quote:I mean, in practical terms it's nuts to say that countries like Japan, the UK, and Germany where the US has a permanent large-scale military presence "couldn't be invaded and occupied" because, in a very real sense, they already are occupied.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:40
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Patrick Spens posted:This doesn't follow. If imperialism is bad because it destroys autonomy and democracy, then what is important is not which is the most successful imperialism, but which imperialism does the most harm to autonomy and democracy. Misunderstanding this leads to mistakes like the OP where the United States being the most successful imperialists is conflated with them being the worst imperialists American imperialism does harm to between 3 and 5 billion people. Unless we want to argue that everyone else is so much worse... quote:They are only occupied in the sense that the US has a long term military presence there. This ignores the more salient point that said military presence is there with permission from the governments of said countries and if that permission was withdrawn the United States would leave. The U.S. is no more occupying those countries than the UK is occupying Canada. And yet all of those countries have a great deal of popular resentment against American military presence, because it is perceived as somewhat like an occupation. I do like the thought that Roman troops in their Armenian client state weren't occupying it because the king of Armenia was okay with submitting to Roman rule. gobbagool posted:So much anger! Yeah I guess I'd be mad too if I'd dedicated so much emotional energy to a political and economic philosophy that's been dead for more than 25 years, spending hours writing carehard posts about how great North Korea is I don't think you can say people are "carehards" when you yourself care so much about your precious little life you won't chug a bleach cocktail. Typo posted:"financial exploitation" is a useless term to define empire by because it's so vague and ambiguous, some US company made $$$ from trading with china? must be part of american empire! Well, we could look at net foreign capital ownership, Typo. I guess that's meaningless because you can fart out some more posts about comparative advantage meaning that 50-60% of all industrial capital in Benin being owned by French companies is actually a positive for Benin's economic development. It's a net benefit because these countries, all of them in the top 15 military spenders worldwide, would be paying at least twice as much for their militaries to defend against a nation that doesn't exist anymore. It's also a net benefit because American marines rape children in those countries, thereby providing entire worlds of benefits to the people of those countries, who are nevertheless grasping ingrates about it. Brainiac Five fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 21:42
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Brainiac Five posted:I mean, in practical terms it's nuts to say that countries like Japan, the UK, and Germany where the US has a permanent large-scale military presence "couldn't be invaded and occupied" because, in a very real sense, they already are occupied. In a very real sense Japan, the UK, and Germany are the US' strong allies. They could get the US military to leave by asking them to leave. The Philippines did this in 1991, and the US military obeyed their wishes. The Philippines has invited the US back to 5 military bases because China is scaring the poo poo out of them, incidentally. Brainiac Five posted:For if we consider autonomy and democracy and all that to be a good, as we must do in accordance with liberal values, then assuredly imperialism is bad and American imperialism, by virtue of being the most successful, is the foremost target. Contemporary American imperialism often promotes democracy and self-determination. NATO is a vehicle for US imperialism, and countries like Colombia and Ukraine are desperate to join due to the military threat posed by their "anti-imperialist" neighbors.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:44
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Please do not get so steamed about Internet posts you begin wishing death upon the authors. Thank you.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:46
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Brainiac Five posted:American imperialism does harm to between 3 and 5 billion people. Unless we want to argue that everyone else is so much worse... yeah sure whatever dude  
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Jun 14, 2016 21:46
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[quote="Brainiac Five" post=""461039626"]Anti-imperialism is an important part of anti-capitalist struggle [/quote] You do get the difference between that and the OP's position that anti-capitalism is a minor, and tactically discardable, part of the anti-imperialist struggle? There really is a reason ~99.99% of far left groups don't go all 'my country, right or wrong' about North Korea.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:48
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Brainiac Five posted:American imperialism does harm to between 3 and 5 billion people. Unless we want to argue that everyone else is so much worse... Since you're obviously overheated and rageposting, why not tell us your mastubatory alt history scenario where the US just disappears in, say, 1947, and how the "3 to 5 billion" would be better off under soviet hegemony
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Jun 14, 2016 21:49
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Brainiac Five posted:
quote:It's a net benefit because these countries, all of them in the top 15 military spenders worldwide, would be paying at least twice as much for their militaries to defend against a nation that doesn't exist anymore. It's also a net benefit because American marines rape children in those countries, thereby providing entire worlds of benefits to the people of those countries, who are nevertheless grasping ingrates about it. No dude, South Korea wants US troops there cuz North Korea, Japan wants US troops cuz China, Germany and UK are ok with US troops because they are long time allies and the elected governments in those countries consents to US troops being stationed there. Recent expansionism on the part of Russia has crowds in Poland cheering US troops on exercise in their country.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:52
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JeffersonClay posted:In a very real sense Japan, the UK, and Germany are the US' strong allies. They could get the US military to leave by asking them to leave. The Philippines did this in 1991, and the US military obeyed their wishes. The Philippines has invited the US back to 5 military bases because China is scaring the poo poo out of them, incidentally. Too bad those bases are generally resented by the population that has to deal with American soldiers. I'm glad they have such a strong say in whether the US military should remain to defend against the inscrutable Chinaman and the eternally renascent USSR. quote:Contemporary American imperialism often promotes democracy and self-determination. NATO is a vehicle for US imperialism, and countries like Colombia and Ukraine are desperate to join due to the military threat posed by their "anti-imperialist" neighbors. If you're going to redefine words I'm going to do it too. Thus, I have redefined everything you say as a concession that I am right and a sexual proposition. Thanks but no thanks. Typo posted:yeah sure whatever dude Oh hell yes, Stalin was right because the USSR experienced significant economic growth and development under him. After all, it's the same logic as what you're using. radmonger posted:You do get the difference between that and the OP's position that anti-capitalism is a minor, and tactically discardable, part of the anti-imperialist struggle? That's not the OP's position, because he's arguing for opposition to American imperialism as a means to weaken American dominion and create spaces wherein autonomy and self-determination are possible for countries that aren't part of the imperial rulership. This doesn't require a functional socialist country to achieve.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:52
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This thread seems to be saying that the USA buying luxury goods made by children is a bad system but it could be a helluva lot worse. Which I agree with
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Jun 14, 2016 21:56
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Brainiac Five posted:
the second chart shows what happens to a country's economy when it retains a stalinist style economy after the ussr stops giving you free money Capitalism, for all it's flaws, is by far a superior model of development in improving people's lives than Communist command economies, with far less bizzare bullshit like the great leap forward or the cultural revolution or purging the red army Typo fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 21:58
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Brainiac Five posted:American imperialism does harm to between 3 and 5 billion people. Unless we want to argue that everyone else is so much worse... Just so I can keep track, between South Korea and North Korea, who has been more oppressed by American Imperialism? quote:And yet all of those countries have a great deal of popular resentment against American military presence, because it is perceived as somewhat like an occupation. I do like the thought that Roman troops in their Armenian client state weren't occupying it because the king of Armenia was okay with submitting to Roman rule. For someone who claims to care about democracy, you are very quick to claim equivalence between democratic governments and puppet monarchies.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:01
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Typo posted:yeah sure whatever dude about that....  
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Jun 14, 2016 22:02
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gobbagool posted:Since you're obviously overheated and rageposting, why not tell us your mastubatory alt history scenario where the US just disappears in, say, 1947, and how the "3 to 5 billion" would be better off under soviet hegemony You can shoot off as many arrows as you like, you may toss your spears as high as your arms will propel them, you might shriek "u mad" with a cicada's cadence, but you can never strike the face of god. Typo posted:foreign capital ownership isn't necessarily bad for a country's economy, in fact there is a very strong correlation between between economic openness and higher standards of living. The theories of comparative advantage, in the real world, has worked out much much better than Marxist's preferences towards autarky and has being demonstrated over and over again. Comparative advantage, in the real world, is directly opposed to any sort of economic development. We can put this on Ricardo not having the information to incorporate this, but the actual theory is a net negative for the parts of the world that aren't rich. Foreign ownership of capital may be a net positive compared to autarky (but no Marxist nation besides the DRPK has adopted autarky out of ideology, you loving idiot) but it's a net negative overall because the profits are sucked out of the country instead of being able to be used for internal development. quote:No dude, South Korea wants US troops there cuz North Korea, Japan wants US troops cuz China, Germany and UK are ok with US troops because they are long time allies and the elected governments in those countries consents to US troops being stationed there. Recent expansionism on the part of Russia has crowds in Poland cheering US troops on exercise in their country. Holy poo poo, I thought North Korea was a state dependent on half-century old weaponry and suffering regular crop failures and malnutrition. But it turns out they're actually so dangerous we need a couple dozen carriers plus an infantry division plus a nuclear arsenal to keep them in check. And- my god- the JMSDF is simply helpless in the face of the rapine Chinese.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:02
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Typo posted:the second chart shows what happens to a country's economy when it retains a stalinist style economy after the ussr stops giving you free money The DPRK isn't Stalinist, you motherfucking idiot. One of the major arguments for deliberate famine in the Holodomor was the USSR continuing to export food. Get the gently caress out of this thread and don't come back until you know something about anything. Well, dude, we can look at how Africa grew more under nominally Marxist governments from 1960-1979 than under free-market governments from 1980-2000. And we could say that while there may be forms of capitalism that are good at developing an economy, they aren't the ones being propagated right now. Patrick Spens posted:Just so I can keep track, between South Korea and North Korea, who has been more oppressed by American Imperialism? I'm glad Rina Shimabukuro's death was necessary for the defense of freedom. quote:For someone who claims to care about democracy, you are very quick to claim equivalence between democratic governments and puppet monarchies. Are they representative governments? Japan's sure isn't. Operation Gladio puts the legitimacy of any government in Western Europe in question, barring France and the UK. Both of whom engaged in significant efforts at suppressing left-wing politics during the Cold War. So it's really questionable as to whether these countries can be described as fully democratic given their recent histories and the extent to which government force has been used to crush left-wing alternatives.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:10
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Brainiac Five posted:Too bad those bases are generally resented by the population that has to deal with American soldiers. I'm glad they have such a strong say in whether the US military should remain to defend against the inscrutable Chinaman and the eternally renascent USSR. 92% of Filipinos have a favorable view of the US, versus 7% unfavorable. Ukraine is 69/22. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that China and Russia are aggressively expanding into their claimed territory? The people of these countries have a strong say in electing their governments, and those governments are desperate for the protective embrace of Uncle Sam's ample bosom. Brainiac Five posted:If you're going to redefine words I'm going to do it too. Thus, I have redefined everything you say as a concession that I am right and a sexual proposition. Thanks but no thanks. So you don't think NATO is a vehicle for US imperialism now? That's dumb. Brainiac Five posted:Are they representative governments? Japan's sure isn't. Operation Gladio puts the legitimacy of any government in Western Europe in question, barring France and the UK. Both of whom engaged in significant efforts at suppressing left-wing politics during the Cold War. So it's really questionable as to whether these countries can be described as fully democratic given their recent histories and the extent to which government force has been used to crush left-wing alternatives. Are they more democratic than any of the nations on team anti-imperialism? Why yes, they are. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 22:15
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JeffersonClay posted:92% of Filipinos have a favorable view of the US, versus 7% unfavorable. Ukraine is 69/22. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that China and Russia are aggressively expanding into their claimed territory? The people of these countries have a strong say in electing their governments, and those governments are desperate for the protective embrace of Uncle Sam's ample bosom. Stop talking about Uncle Sam having big tits you pervert. Anyways, you admit that the USA is imperial, you just believe that imperialism is good. Well, you've thrown your lot in with it, but I do want to let you know that you can change your mind at any point and be accepted. Everyone has skeletons in their closet.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:20
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Brainiac Five posted:Stop talking about Uncle Sam having big tits you pervert. Anyways, you admit that the USA is imperial, you just believe that imperialism is good. Well, you've thrown your lot in with it, but I do want to let you know that you can change your mind at any point and be accepted. Everyone has skeletons in their closet. I think if you stretch the definition of imperialism to include supporting weaker, democratic nations against their stronger, autocratic neighbors then yes, imperialism can be good. I think it's weird you disagree, but clearly you have a lot of lovely opinions so 
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Jun 14, 2016 22:28
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What's revealing is that you are perfectly capable of making arguments like this one:quote:Well, dude, we can look at how Africa grew more under nominally Marxist governments from 1960-1979 than under free-market governments from 1980-2000. And we could say that while there may be forms of capitalism that are good at developing an economy, they aren't the ones being propagated right now. Which while a little bit broad are at least capable of nuance and of recognizing that distinguishing between alternatives is actual work, and you can just point and one or two awful events and use that that judge a nation or an economic system. But then, when asked to evaluate the Koreas you fall back on petulant nonsense* quote:Are they representative governments? Japan's sure isn't. I'm not particularly interested in getting into the weeds of exactly how representative various democratic governments are. All democracies are a corrupt and imperfect representation of popular will. But you and I both know that Germany and the UK are more representative than Japan. And Japan now is more representative than both Japan before U.S. imperialism and any of the OP's Countries that Combat Imperialism except maybe Bolivia. *To be clear, being upset or horrified at what happened to Shimbukuro isn't petulant nonsense. Using her as a distraction when you are losing an argument is. Patrick Spens fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 22:31
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Yeah I'm pretty sure if NATO wasn't there my proud Russian motherland would've already steamrolled those Baltic idiots back into the fold.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:31
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gobbagool posted:Since you're obviously overheated and rageposting, why not tell us your mastubatory alt history scenario where the US just disappears in, say, 1947, and how the "3 to 5 billion" would be better off under soviet hegemony Yeah this please. One of the biggest delusions on the left.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:33
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JeffersonClay posted:I think if you stretch the definition of imperialism to include supporting weaker, democratic nations ...the nation where America arbitrarily suspended and placed the communists on trial while the pro-American MPs could vote in a unilaterally-favourable-to-the-US trade deal? The Philippines is really not a go-to example to show America spreading democracy.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:34
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gobbagool posted:Since you're obviously overheated and rageposting, why not tell us your mastubatory alt history scenario where the US just disappears in, say, 1947, and how the "3 to 5 billion" would be better off under soviet hegemony I would also be interested in any of the "The U.S. is the primary source of oppression and suffering" posters in this thread's takes on this.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:38
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Brainiac Five posted:Those states are all part of the American empire, however. If we use Lenin's definition of (modern) imperialism as focused around the financial exploitation, Western Europe and Japan are both highly complicit in the financial exploitation of the global south, especially sub-Saharan Africa. Turkey is a member of NATO. India has aligned itself within the US global order. This rhetoric makes me loving livid. American allies, countries like Turkey and Saudi Arabia notwithstanding, are overwhelmingly democracies whose citizenry actively WANT close ties with the USA. To write them all off as puppets/occupied states in an American empire is denying the agency of a really huge portion of the world and as a citizen of a country with close ties to the USA I find it offensive as gently caress. Brainiac Five posted:Are they representative governments? Japan's sure isn't. Operation Gladio puts the legitimacy of any government in Western Europe in question, barring France and the UK. Both of whom engaged in significant efforts at suppressing left-wing politics during the Cold War. So it's really questionable as to whether these countries can be described as fully democratic given their recent histories and the extent to which government force has been used to crush left-wing alternatives. Oh okay, we already got the "Well they aren't REAL democracies because they aren't direct democracies where people I agree with win elections" response. Guess you can check that off the bingo card. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 22:39
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Brainiac Five posted:
This is a very interesting proposition right here. I would be curious as to what the peoples of the multitude of other non-NATO Western nations like Sweden would say if you told them that their governments weren't legitimate. The entire conspiracy theory around Operation Gladio has largely been disproved by members of the actual KGB, who admitted to forging the central document which supported the theory. I think that there is a really strange, underlying theme to the arguments put forward by this thread's more radical participants in that they seem very quick to deny agency to any country with a positive relationship with the United States. Still though, I have enjoyed reading this thread, even if I find much of the logic involved rather perplexing.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:39
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Tesseraction posted:...the nation where America arbitrarily suspended and placed the communists on trial while the pro-American MPs could vote in a unilaterally-favourable-to-the-US trade deal? The Philippines is really not a go-to example to show America spreading democracy. The US did a bad thing 70 years ago. Did they brainwash 92% of Filipinos too? My claim wasn't about spreading democracy, it was about protecting extant democracies from outside threats. Which, by the way, is exactly what the US is doing when it accepts the Philippines' offer to move back into the military bases we abandoned at their request in the 90's.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:39
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Yes, what's your point? China has, indeed, done very well since it ditched Maosim and embraced capitalism
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Jun 14, 2016 22:40
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Typo posted:Yes, what's your point? This is another can of worms entirely, but China is still socialist.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:42
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Homework Explainer posted:This is another can of worms entirely, but China is still socialist. no its not. like seriously in what way is china socialist the country that threw pensions under the bus in the hopes it might keep the economy running is definitely socialist Jose fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 22:43
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