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Homework Explainer posted:This is another can of worms entirely, but China is still socialist. No it isn't. China's social safety net is "you family takes care of you now gently caress off."
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Jun 14, 2016 22:45
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Fojar38 posted:No it isn't. seriously op you're well read but loving hell you're dumb
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Jun 14, 2016 22:46
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Brainiac Five posted:
quote:Foreign ownership of capital may be a net positive compared to autarky (but no Marxist nation besides the DRPK has adopted autarky out of ideology, you loving idiot) quote:but it's a net negative overall because the profits are sucked out of the country instead of being able to be used for internal development. No it's not the reason why foreign capital is in the country is because the country needed either capital or foreign expertise which isn't available in country while it's true some return on capital goes out of the country it's still a net gain for both sides because the reason why return on capital exists is because the foreign capital generated additional revenue a certain % of which goes out of the country but a large % remains in the country in forms of wages/taxes/what-have-you and contributes to development. If foreign capital isn't there the country in question would be poorer because instead of losing like 25% of the revenue a foreign owned factory generates they now lose 100% since the factory don't exist.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:46
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Homework Explainer posted:This is another can of worms entirely, but China is still socialist. What is your definition of socialism, and why does China fit it?
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Jun 14, 2016 22:47
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Patrick Spens posted:What is your definition of socialism, and why does China fit it? turns out if a country calls itself communist/socialist it qualifies
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Jun 14, 2016 22:47
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Jose posted:seriously like one of the reasons for chinas ongoing decline is people are getting older and there is no social safety net whatsoever so you have young people who have to support like 4 elderly parents with their paycheck but the government is more keen to spend money on putting down the resulting strikes than implementing anything that could be called socialist
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Jun 14, 2016 22:48
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JeffersonClay posted:The US did a bad thing 70 years ago. Did they brainwash 92% of Filipinos too? My claim wasn't about spreading democracy, it was about protecting extant democracies from outside threats. Which, by the way, is exactly what the US is doing when it accepts the Philippines' offer to move back into the military bases we abandoned at their request in the 90's. Right, but you could see how a country with a strong arm in the country's affairs could shape perceptions? I'm not saying "America brainwashed 92% of Filipinos" but that America is more likely to have a positive propaganda campaign than the country that's (quite rightfully) not in control of the Philippines. This is more a call for scepticism than an outright claim that America has a gun to the country's head.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:48
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Homework Explainer posted:This is another can of worms entirely, but China is still socialist. FUKING LOL  And this doesn't even include everyone's secret swiss/american hidden bank accounts
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Jun 14, 2016 22:48
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Typo posted:If foreign capital isn't there the country in question would be poorer because instead of losing like 25% of the revenue a foreign owned factory generates they now lose 100% since the factory don't exist. 100% less exploitation, and think of all the noble agricultural labor those lucky duckies will get to enjoy!
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Jun 14, 2016 22:49
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This is a conversation better suited to another thread, possibly the China economy thread or a similar one. I've had this discussion before, and I can marshal my sources from that.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:49
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Fojar38 posted:like one of the reasons for chinas ongoing decline is people are getting older and there is no social safety net whatsoever so you have young people who have to support like 4 elderly parents with their paycheck but the government is more keen to spend money on putting down the resulting strikes than implementing anything that could be called socialist its cool how the sons inherit everything worth a drat and the daughters have to pay for the parents care as they get older Homework Explainer posted:This is a conversation better suited to another thread, possibly the China economy thread or a similar one. If you're going to claim itt china is socialist then don't dodge the question of explaining how
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Jun 14, 2016 22:49
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Tesseraction posted:Right, but you could see how a country with a strong arm in the country's affairs could shape perceptions? I'm not saying "America brainwashed 92% of Filipinos" but that America is more likely to have a positive propaganda campaign than the country that's (quite rightfully) not in control of the Philippines. This is more a call for scepticism than an outright claim that America has a gun to the country's head. Countries that are open to one another with long histories and overlapping interests tend to perceive each other more positively????
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Jun 14, 2016 22:50
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Hey, guys great socialists drive ferraris in Vancouver didn't you hear?
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Jun 14, 2016 22:50
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Someone post that chart of peoples perception of whether spending money makes you happy that has china way out in front
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Jun 14, 2016 22:51
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Typo posted:Hey, guys great socialists drive ferraris in Vancouver didn't you hear? One time in Toronto I saw one of those working-class Porsches being towed and cursed the capitalist plot against the workers.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:51
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Homework Explainer posted:This is a conversation better suited to another thread, possibly the China economy thread or a similar one. I have asked my question again in the China thread, I look forward to hearing your response.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:52
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Fojar38 posted:No it isn't. So America is a socialist state now because it has Medicaid and food stamps? Welfare states have nothing to do with the economic policy of socialism. They can and should overlap, but it's not a requirement.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:52
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Tesseraction posted:So America is a socialist state now because it has Medicaid and food stamps? Welfare states have nothing to do with the economic policy of socialism. They can and should overlap, but it's not a requirement. America is unironically more socialist than almost every single country listed in the OP.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:53
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Tesseraction posted:Right, but you could see how a country with a strong arm in the country's affairs could shape perceptions? I'm not saying "America brainwashed 92% of Filipinos" but that America is more likely to have a positive propaganda campaign than the country that's (quite rightfully) not in control of the Philippines. This is more a call for scepticism than an outright claim that America has a gun to the country's head. The US doesn't have a gun to the Philippines' head -- that's China. Remember the Philippines asked all the US troops to leave in the 90's and they did. Now the Philippines has asked the US to come back. Do I think it's because 92% of Filipinos love the US military hanging around? No. I think it's because 92% of Filipinos see China as a massive threat and view the US as their most significant ally. This half-baked propaganda theorycrafting is pretty pathetic.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:53
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Tesseraction posted:So America is a socialist state now because it has Medicaid and food stamps? Welfare states have nothing to do with the economic policy of socialism. They can and should overlap, but it's not a requirement. I don't think the people would be permanently ingesting heavy metals if they controlled any of the food production
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Jun 14, 2016 22:54
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Patrick Spens posted:What's revealing is that you are perfectly capable of making arguments like this one: It's not a distraction. Because you support the US presence in Okinawa, Frankfurt, etc., you support her rape and murder as a necessary evil, because Shimbukuro's death would not have happened without the US military bases. Your problem is that you seem to think I exist for your benefit, which I do not. So your jibber-jabber about whether I'm "reasonable" or not is offensive. Disgusting. Giggle Goose posted:This is a very interesting proposition right here. I would be curious as to what the peoples of the multitude of other non-NATO Western nations like Sweden would say if you told them that their governments weren't legitimate. The entire conspiracy theory around Operation Gladio has largely been disproved by members of the actual KGB, who admitted to forging the central document which supported the theory. What "conspiracy theory"? Gladio existed and was intended to suppress communism in Western Europe, and it was developed with the full consent of the ruling governments. I suppose you could argue that the people told to engage in guerrilla activity in the event of a Soviet invasion would simply sit quietly in the event of a communist or Soviet-friendly government coming to power, but that seems to rather spoil the purpose of the stay-behind groups. Fojar38 posted:This rhetoric makes me loving livid. American allies, countries like Turkey and Saudi Arabia notwithstanding, are overwhelmingly democracies whose citizenry actively WANT close ties with the USA. To write them all off as puppets/occupied states in an American empire is denying the agency of a really huge portion of the world and as a citizen of a country with close ties to the USA I find it offensive as gently caress. I'm glad you're angry. I hope you get angrier. Especially since you're taking a one-party state like Japan and treating it as a real democracy, and saying that murdering strikers is a democratic activity. Infuriating you is what we in the trade call a net positive.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:55
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JeffersonClay posted:Do I think it's because 92% of Filipinos love the US military hanging around? No. I think it's because 92% of Filipinos see China as a massive threat and view the US as their most significant ally. This half-baked propaganda theorycrafting is pretty pathetic. That's fine, I just was getting the impression you were implying the Philippines just loved America out of the blue from the way you phrased your prior post. If you're just talking "vs. China" then I agree. Jose posted:I don't think the people would be permanently ingesting heavy metals if they controlled any of the food production That would be communism more than anything.  I'm not saying China is a socialist country but there's a Marxist-Leninist argument for maintaining capitalism for the benefit of national development. Hell, Marx was pretty big on capitalism despite all the dipshit right-wingers who act like he was anti-capitalist to the last.
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Jun 14, 2016 22:58
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Brainiac Five posted:I'm glad you're angry. I hope you get angrier. "Japan has an overwhelmingly dominant party that consistently wins elections, it's basically the same as North Korea, which I will now spend 8 pages defending."
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Jun 14, 2016 22:59
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Hey guys, Great Socialist China produces more glorious billionares than decadent capitalist exploiter USA! Once more Socialism has buried the capitalists
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Jun 14, 2016 23:00
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Typo posted:No it's not dude read some economic textbook published after 1800s the theory of international trade has advanced a lot since Ricardo, like China and South Korea for example got rich by by using their comparative advantage in cheap labor and then moved/moving up the value chain. The theory of comparative advantage directly argues that you shouldn't attempt to develop your economy, fucko. You should probably learn to be more precise. quote:Actually Communist countries as a whole while not totally autarkic were ideologically opposed to international trade which is why a tiny % of their gdp was actually trading with anyone outside of their bloc, and the trade within the bloc was largely just the ussr subsidize foreign communist regimes to keep them afloat. All of which means they are poorer because they don't get gains from trade. Nope. This is false. The USSR was averse to trade with the capitalist countries out of paranoia, but another factor is that the capitalist countries didn't want to trade with the USSR without liberalization. quote:No it's not the reason why foreign capital is in the country is because the country needed either capital or foreign expertise which isn't available in country while it's true some return on capital goes out of the country it's still a net gain for both sides because the reason why return on capital exists is because the foreign capital generated additional revenue a certain % of which goes out of the country but a large % remains in the country in forms of wages/taxes/what-have-you and contributes to development. If foreign capital isn't there the country in question would be poorer because instead of losing like 25% of the revenue a foreign owned factory generates they now lose 100% since the factory don't exist. You're a loving moron. Foreign investment doesn't just consist of greenfield poo poo, there's also buying out successful factories and companies within the country to operate. Which leaves your theory falling apart. Because those companies would obviously still loving exist without being bought out. JeffersonClay posted:100% less exploitation, and think of all the noble agricultural labor those lucky duckies will get to enjoy! Aw yeah dude, only whites and Japanese can build factories.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:00
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Patrick Spens posted:I have asked my question again in the China thread, I look forward to hearing your response. Thanks, I'm prepping a post there. Tesseraction is right that socialism isn't "X or Y government program." That kind of thinking results in terrible Facebook memes about how the US Army and the CIA are actually socialist, because of the government. Socialism is a system, and like capitalism can have different permutations. China's market socialism isn't my favorite — I have great sympathy with the Chinese New Left — but it is still a system where the proletariat has control of the means of production. The existence of rich people doesn't serve as proof of the opposite. Soviet millionaires existed, too. Anyway, we can continue this in the China thread, where it's more appropriate.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:01
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post it here for fucks sake. i'm not reading 2 different threads for this when you posted it in this one if you're going to be a china apologist itt then put some more effort into it
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Jun 14, 2016 23:02
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Fojar38 posted:"Japan has an overwhelmingly dominant party that consistently wins elections, it's basically the same as North Korea, which I will now spend 8 pages defending." I haven't defended North Korea at all. Cut your lying tongue out. Anyways, grats on admitting that you defend the US setting up the war-criminal founded Liberal Democratic Party to be the overwhelmingly dominant Japanese political party due to gerrymandering and corruption. I hoped I'd get you to defend Maggie Thatcher murdering miners too, but no such luck.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:02
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Homework Explainer posted:but it is still a system where the proletariat has control of the means of production. Explain to me how the Chinese proletariat controls the means of production.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:03
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Brainiac Five posted:The theory of comparative advantage directly argues that you shouldn't attempt to develop your economy, fucko. You should probably learn to be more precise. Basically, stop reading about schools of economic thought from Marxist textbooks, they frequently misrepresent what their opposition believes!
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Jun 14, 2016 23:03
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It's honestly really awesome that people in this thread are arguing that countries aligning themselves with an empire justifies that empire's actions. Filipinos prefer America to China, meaning that the million dead in Iraq are worthy sacrifices upon the altar of George Washington-Moloch.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:04
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Homework Explainer posted:but it is still a system where the proletariat has control of the means of production. lol no it doesn't the chinese state owned enterprises are controlled by some party officials and their associated patronage networks meanwhile the private industry is basically the US with more guangxi and more ambiguous property ownership laws it takes more doublethink than 1984 to extrapolate from this to workers own means of production
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Jun 14, 2016 23:05
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Brainiac Five posted:I haven't defended North Korea at all. Cut your lying tongue out. I absolutely defend the USA allowing democracy to flourish in Japan, a country that it was once mortal enemies with. The Japanese people are pleased with it too and are great friends of the United States of America according to every poll taken there. 
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Jun 14, 2016 23:05
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Brainiac Five posted:It's honestly really awesome that people in this thread are arguing that countries aligning themselves with an empire justifies that empire's actions. Filipinos prefer America to China, meaning that the million dead in Iraq are worthy sacrifices upon the altar of George Washington-Moloch. it's entirely possible for the US to be bad in Iraq but good in east asia One of the problems of the far left is that they are still running cold war era Moscow party line where the US is always evil
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Jun 14, 2016 23:06
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Brainiac Five posted:It's not a distraction. Because you support the US presence in Okinawa, Frankfurt, etc., you support her rape and murder as a necessary evil, because Shimbukuro's death would not have happened without the US military bases. The great leap famine would never have occurred without Marxism so all marxists must support the great leap famine as a necessary evil. Seems legit. Brainiac Five posted:Aw yeah dude, only whites and Japanese can build factories. Do you even understand what the "capital" in capitalism means? The problem is third world countries don't have it, not that they don't want it or know what to do with it.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:07
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Typo posted:No it doesn't, comparative advantage simply states that each country, due to endowment factors, are good at different things, whether it be making wine or making computers. If a country has a comparative advantage in making computers CPUs because it has a large stockpile of say, silicon, in the country, then it should absolutely develop to the point where it can have a great computer industry. Oh, so you don't believe in Dutch disease? Lmao. Anyways, your position is that countries can intuit their potential future comparative advantages and thus aim for them, which is, bluntly, a lunatic proposition.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:07
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Brainiac Five posted:It's not a distraction. Because you support the US presence in Okinawa, Frankfurt, etc., you support her rape and murder as a necessary evil, because Shimbukuro's death would not have happened without the US military bases. What the poo poo? "Because you support the existence of a police force, you support the police shooting unarmed black guys." These reasonings do no cohere. Bring back Horselord, you're terrible.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:08
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This thread has been very edifying because I have been very disillusioned with america these past few years. I think its important to note that while USA does imperialism the best, it would be good to hold oneself to ideals (ethics) rather than comparisons. Thank you though for helping reshape my viewpoint and challenging my beliefs.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:09
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Fojar38 posted:I absolutely defend the USA allowing democracy to flourish in Japan, a country that it was once mortal enemies with. The Japanese people are pleased with it too and are great friends of the United States of America according to every poll taken there. Being fair they also kept child porn legal until recent years.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:09
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When I'm asking you about Korea, and you bring up something from Japan it is in fact a distraction. So again. Patrick Spens posted:Just so I can keep track, between South Korea and North Korea, who has been more oppressed by American Imperialism? I get that this quote:It's not a distraction. Because you support the US presence in Okinawa, Frankfurt, etc., you support her rape and murder as a necessary evil, because Shimbukuro's death would not have happened without the US military bases. is supposed to make me recoil in horror. But Soviet Soldiers raped and murdered thousands when they invaded Germany. That doesn't mean allying with them was the wrong thing to do. When I support the U.S. I don't do it because it's wonderful. I do it because it is better than the plausible alternative.
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Jun 14, 2016 23:09
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