Official Cold Steel General Discussion Thread

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IGgy IGsen: Apr 11, 2013; "If I lose I will set myself on fire."

So, are git gudders angry at the lance showing up earlier or am I missing something here?

# ? Jun 14, 2016 08:10

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 20:02

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

I hope nobody is mad about video games in this thread!

# ? Jun 14, 2016 08:12

Attestant: Oct 23, 2012; Don't judge me.

The early Grand Lance is the best thing about Scholar edition. That weapon class is fun, and it was dumb to gate it off as late game option (for the most part.) All the other Great-weapons have access to an early weapon of their class, and it was silly that lances did not.

Minor DS3 thing: Naturally DS3 moved the only lance back to the extreme endgame!

# ? Jun 14, 2016 09:45

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

IGgy IGsen posted:

So, are git gudders angry at the lance showing up earlier or am I missing something here?

https://youtu.be/nF-xdiL7Nr0

# ? Jun 14, 2016 10:08

NGDBSS: Dec 30, 2009

Attestant posted:

The early Grand Lance is the best thing about Scholar edition. That weapon class is fun, and it was dumb to gate it off as late game option (for the most part.) All the other Great-weapons have access to an early weapon of their class, and it was silly that lances did not.

Minor DS3 thing: Naturally DS3 moved the only lance back to the extreme endgame!

The only caveat here is that lances take some getting used to. While they can do a lot of damage and even send enemies flying if you use them properly, lances are relatively slow to attack compared to spears. Hence the tradeoff there is in using a technical weapon or gaining straightforward range.

(Then again, I will use smash/launch attacks every chance I can get in DS2. :black101:

)

# ? Jun 14, 2016 10:20

gibb3h: Jul 15, 2014

I am very slightly ahead of where geop is now having not played before, I'm enjoying 2 handing the spear since the R2 does strike damage :black101:

# ? Jun 14, 2016 10:31

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

Agility talk, because this is arcane bullshit that the game never tells you:

For reference: In Dark souls 1

the fat roll gave 9 iframes
the midroll gave 11 iframes
the fast roll gave 13 iframes.

In dark souls 2 you get 1 extra iframe roughly every 4 agility levels. I simplified the table to this.
86 agility (goonther) gives 8 iframes - worse than fatrolling
96 agility gives 11 iframes - equal to midrolling
105 agility gives 13 iframes. -equal to fastrolling.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 16:30

mdct: Sep 2, 2011; Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.
Don't steal them.

NGDBSS posted:

The only caveat here is that lances take some getting used to. While they can do a lot of damage and even send enemies flying if you use them properly, lances are relatively slow to attack compared to spears. Hence the tradeoff there is in using a technical weapon or gaining straightforward range.

(Then again, I will use smash/launch attacks every chance I can get in DS2. )

The main, best quality of the Grand Lance is that it does thrust damage and has a ridiculous 160 critical damage modifier, making it the best crit weapon in the game. With the proper setup, the Grand Lance is one of the game's highest damage-making GBS threads weapons.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 16:34

MGlBlaze: May 19, 2011; Warning; side-effects include disintegrated ocular tissue.

I never really tried out lances in Dark Souls 2. I am surprised to see that weapon appear so early, though. I was never personally a fan of thrusting weapons; I preferred swords, hammers, other stuff with swings in general.

That and Lances were one of the many weapons you could use to cheese people in PvP by stunlock killing them in a single combo thanks to the dual wielding system before stuff got patched, so it always left a bad taste in my mouth.

On a completely different note, for those who have not played Dark Souls 2 and are interested, or have the base game but never got SOTFS, it's current on sale on Steam for a pretty major discount. So while I cannot personally recommend this game, if you want to play it then go for it.

Mighty Dicktron posted:

The main, best quality of the Grand Lance is that it does thrust damage and has a ridiculous 160 critical damage modifier, making it the best crit weapon in the game. With the proper setup, the Grand Lance is one of the game's highest damage-making GBS threads weapons.

Oh right, I forgot about that. Lances as a weapon class in general have the highest counter strength in the game. So you can actually do significant damage by just trading hits. Monstrous backstabs and riposte attacks too.

Which also reminds me that I expressed annoyance that many of the katanas had 150 counter strength, which is completely unnecessarily high for such a fast weapon class. But I digress.

MGlBlaze fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jun 14, 2016

# ? Jun 14, 2016 16:36

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

Laputanmachine posted:

Geop, try torch and then joy!

But then how can he hide behind a shield??

# ? Jun 14, 2016 16:48

Deformed Church: May 12, 2012; 5'5", IQ 81

double nine posted:

In dark souls 2 you get 1 extra iframe roughly every 4 agility levels. I simplified the table to this.
86 agility (goonther) gives 8 iframes - worse than fatrolling
96 agility gives 11 iframes - equal to midrolling
105 agility gives 13 iframes. -equal to fastrolling.

I don't expect it to be an issue for goonther for a while, if ever, but it's worth noting that the returns are pretty bad past 105. After this, there's three more iframes at 111, 114 and 116, but agility gains slow down substantially at 110. There's no reason at all to go beyond 105.

Also, I think we had this discussion earlier, but a friendly reminder that these values are for 30fps. Running at 60, you'll get double this many frames. Basically, dodge duration stays constant regardless of whether you're playing on a laptop from 2010 or a $5k machine you built a month ago.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 16:52

MGlBlaze: May 19, 2011; Warning; side-effects include disintegrated ocular tissue.

I remember this being brought up before; I believe the implication is indeed that those iframes are adjusted for your current running framerate. Other than weapon durability previously being frame-dependant for loving ages ( :psyduck:

) Dark Souls 2 is a better PC version than 1 was, although I feel 1 was otherwise a better game in most respects.

In any case, that still means that your starting agility invincibility window is worse than a dark souls 1 fat roll because the relative duration of IFrames to FPS is maintained. I believe this is also the case in DSFix for Dark Souls 1 if you use it to run at 60fps.

MGlBlaze fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jun 14, 2016

# ? Jun 14, 2016 16:57

mdct: Sep 2, 2011; Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.
Don't steal them.

MGlBlaze posted:

Dark Souls 2 is a better PC version than 1 was, although I feel 1 was otherwise a better game in most respects.

You know you don't have to sign your posts, "I thought Dark Souls 1 was Better than 2", if that is your real name

# ? Jun 14, 2016 17:02

MGlBlaze: May 19, 2011; Warning; side-effects include disintegrated ocular tissue.

Mighty Dicktron posted:

You know you don't have to sign your posts, "I thought Dark Souls 1 was Better than 2", if that is your real name

Signatures tend to come at the end, not somewhere in the middle. Clearly we disagree on the merits and demerits of Dark Souls 2, and that is totally okay, but if you're going to be combative with me then at least get the reasons right.

Kind regards,
I thought Dark Souls 1 was Better than 2

But as far as the actual lp this thread is for goes, I hope Geop goes ahead and gets Goonther's stats up to the point where he can use that lance. I never bothered with them myself so it should be cool to see it in action from Geop's perspective.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 17:16

100 HOGS AGREE: Oct 13, 2007; Grimey Drawer

I never even knew that the rolls had iframes because I would always get hit by poo poo rolling to the side in dark souls 1, so I just assumed it was a fast way to move out of the way. I don't think I've ever successfully rolled through an attack. :stare:

# ? Jun 14, 2016 17:54

MGlBlaze: May 19, 2011; Warning; side-effects include disintegrated ocular tissue.

Wow, really? Not even by accident? That's... pretty amazing, actually.

I mean rolling CAN be used as a way to move around more quickly as well in short bursts but it really is a video game 'dodge move'.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 17:59

100 HOGS AGREE: Oct 13, 2007; Grimey Drawer

i mean it's probably happened but I didn't understand that it was happening.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 18:19

DMW45: Oct 29, 2011; Come into my parlor~
Said the spider to the fly~

MGlBlaze posted:

But as far as the actual lp this thread is for goes, I hope Geop goes ahead and gets Goonther's stats up to the point where he can use that lance. I never bothered with them myself so it should be cool to see it in action from Geop's perspective.

Personally, just after playing through both, I vastly prefer DS2.

About Lances, I never tried them myself, but they just never seemed that good to me. For early game weapons I prefer either fisticuffs or the ~~baseball bat~~ club.

I prefer the club over the mace, honestly, better moveset--wide swings, unless you two hand it, then you can get stuff low to the ground.

100 HOGS AGREE posted:

I never even knew that the rolls had iframes because I would always get hit by poo poo rolling to the side in dark souls 1, so I just assumed it was a fast way to move out of the way. I don't think I've ever successfully rolled through an attack.

Really? My preferred way to take on Smough in DS1 as a no-shield punchman was to literally just roll through his swings and keep punching him in the face.

DMW45 fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jun 14, 2016

# ? Jun 14, 2016 18:28

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Roll into the direction of the attacks, not away, otherwise they'll carry on through you and hit when your iframes are done.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 18:39

100 HOGS AGREE: Oct 13, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Dabir posted:

Roll into the direction of the attacks, not away, otherwise they'll carry on through you and hit when your iframes are done.

this literally changes everything

# ? Jun 14, 2016 18:41

Genocyber: Jun 4, 2012

Dabir posted:

Roll into the direction of the attacks, not away, otherwise they'll carry on through you and hit when your iframes are done.

You can dodge away, timing just needs to be better and it's more likely to work if the attack is quicker.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 18:48

Deformed Church: May 12, 2012; 5'5", IQ 81

If you're going to roll away, at least go backwards or forwards rather than straight up following the attack.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 19:04

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Although best not to cause swords are always longer than you think.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 19:21

IGgy IGsen: Apr 11, 2013; "If I lose I will set myself on fire."

Dabir posted:

Roll into the direction of the attacks, not away, otherwise they'll carry on through you and hit when your iframes are done.

Or if you want to be lazy and safe just always dodge away from the opponent's dominant hand as they swing. It's usually their right. So assuming that you'll always be slightly to the right (their left) of the opponent, if his hit comes from your left, dodge right. You'll be out of harms way most of the time. If it comes from your right you'll go through the attack if your dodge is timed correctly, minimizing even the chance of getting into the hitbox by potentially just dodging past the attack before it becomes active if you dodge too early. And the absolute best part is, that at least in Dark Souls II, you can often just strafe right to avoid most attacks from some enemies. Of course, it's not fool proof. Generally dodging into/through attacks is good advice, though.

But the whole strafe right to win tactic was so bad that they eventually made enemies in the DLCs and later games have moves to counter that specifically.

IGgy IGsen fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jun 14, 2016

# ? Jun 14, 2016 19:28

DMW45: Oct 29, 2011; Come into my parlor~
Said the spider to the fly~

IGgy IGsen posted:

Or if you want to be lazy and safe just always dodge away from the opponent's dominant hand as they swing. It's usually their right. So assuming that you'll always be slightly to the right (their left) of the opponent, if his hit comes from your left, dodge right. You'll be out of harms way most of the time. If it comes from your right you'll go through the attack if your dodge is timed correctly, minimizing even the chance of getting into the hitbox by potentially just dodging past the attack before it becomes active if you dodge too early. And the absolute best part is, that at least in Dark Souls II, you can often just strafe right to avoid most attacks from some enemies. Of course, it's not fool proof. Generally dodging into/through attacks is good advice, though.

But the whole strafe right to win tactic was so bad that they eventually made enemies in the DLCs and later games have moves to counter that specifically.

Who knew that the most powerful tactic in Dark Souls was walking to the right?

# ? Jun 14, 2016 19:48

KeiraWalker: Sep 5, 2011; Me? Don't worry about me...; Grimey Drawer

MGlBlaze posted:

On a completely different note, for those who have not played Dark Souls 2 and are interested, or have the base game but never got SOTFS, it's current on sale on Steam for a pretty major discount. So while I cannot personally recommend this game, if you want to play it then go for it.

Is it? I'm only seeing it at the normal price, myself.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 20:24

Raygereio: Nov 12, 2012

KieranWalker posted:

Is it? I'm only seeing it at the normal price, myself.

It was. The weekend sale is over now though.
If you want to buy the game: The Steam Summer sale is quickly approaching and I'd be surprised if DaS2 isn't featured in some daily deal or whatever.

Raygereio fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jun 14, 2016

# ? Jun 14, 2016 20:34

KeiraWalker: Sep 5, 2011; Me? Don't worry about me...; Grimey Drawer

Hm. I want to say last time I saw SotFS in a Steam sale, it was no different from buying the "upgrade from DS2" version they've got listed there. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.

I still feel like 30 dollars is a lot to ask for what is, in effect, a game you already own.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 20:42

NGDBSS: Dec 30, 2009

IGgy IGsen posted:

Or if you want to be lazy and safe just always dodge away from the opponent's dominant hand as they swing. It's usually their right. So assuming that you'll always be slightly to the right (their left) of the opponent, if his hit comes from your left, dodge right. You'll be out of harms way most of the time. If it comes from your right you'll go through the attack if your dodge is timed correctly, minimizing even the chance of getting into the hitbox by potentially just dodging past the attack before it becomes active if you dodge too early. And the absolute best part is, that at least in Dark Souls II, you can often just strafe right to avoid most attacks from some enemies. Of course, it's not fool proof. Generally dodging into/through attacks is good advice, though.

But the whole strafe right to win tactic was so bad that they eventually made enemies in the DLCs and later games have moves to counter that specifically.

Isn't strafing around an enemy's attacks to avoid them and angle in for a backstab basically a cornerstone of cautious play in the Souls games? Generally the trickiest things have been in figuring out which way to circle* or what angle to maintain in order to avoid the worst of that enemy's arsenal. (Consider Havel from DS1, for instance.) People had been used to the style since Demon's Souls, so allowing enemies to counter your strafing was a big surprise.

*Sometimes it's helpful to circle towards the weapon arm, but other times it's better to circle away from that.

KieranWalker posted:

Hm. I want to say last time I saw SotFS in a Steam sale, it was no different from buying the "upgrade from DS2" version they've got listed there. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.

I still feel like 30 dollars is a lot to ask for what is, in effect, a game you already own.

It periodically goes on sale, so it will almost certainly be discounted for the Steam Summer Sale. I bought the upgrade myself during the Winter Sale for $20 (and subsequently platinumed it).

# ? Jun 14, 2016 20:56

Genocyber: Jun 4, 2012

KieranWalker posted:

Hm. I want to say last time I saw SotFS in a Steam sale, it was no different from buying the "upgrade from DS2" version they've got listed there. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.

I still feel like 30 dollars is a lot to ask for what is, in effect, a game you already own.

It's not really a game you already own considering how different the enemy/item placements are.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 21:14

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

Eh, it's still just a gameplay reshuffle - assets are the same, story is the same and so on; what it really is is a balance patch. Not letting you upgrade to it appropriately for the DLC you have is simply stupid.
Regarding rolling to the right being the ultimate strategy, I think the game pretty much teaches you that with an upcoming boss - but it's such a loving revelation when you figure it out and to be fair there's plenty non-humanoid enemies to gently caress you over in different ways.

anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jun 14, 2016

# ? Jun 14, 2016 21:26

MGlBlaze: May 19, 2011; Warning; side-effects include disintegrated ocular tissue.

KieranWalker posted:

I still feel like 30 dollars is a lot to ask for what is, in effect, a game you already own.

It's a better deal if you never bothered to get the DLC before. But if you do already have it all then yeah, not worth it at all.

MGlBlaze fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jun 14, 2016

# ? Jun 14, 2016 22:00

Adeptus: May 1, 2009

KieranWalker posted:

Hm. I want to say last time I saw SotFS in a Steam sale, it was no different from buying the "upgrade from DS2" version they've got listed there. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.

I still feel like 30 dollars is a lot to ask for what is, in effect, a game you already own.

The sale this weekend discounted the upgrade version too, I got it for ~�7. Hopefully it'll be the same if it goes on sale in a few weeks.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 22:14

Wonderslug: Apr 3, 2011; You don't say.; Fallen Rib

I imagine now that DS3 is out the discounts will trend towards the generous. I went ahead and grabbed it since I played the original on PS3 and never got the DLC, and frankly wasn't that motivated to at the time.

The biggest thing I forgot was how completely different movement feels, especially coming straight from DS3. It's like some combination of heavy gravity and being made of Post-It glue. Part of that is from the little turn-around animation you have to do when you change directions from a standing start, which I really appreciate on narrow ledges and really don't elsewhere.

I also nearly got caught by the new turtle dude in the sword-statue room despite literally having watched Geop do the exact same thing earlier in the day.

I sure do Have Opinions about this game, but the short version is that while there are a lot of things I like about DS2 there are an equal number of deeply stupid things, and a lot of places I appreciate what it's trying to do, but it doesn't succeed. I feel like where DS1 falters it's most often because its reach exceeds its grasp, whereas where DS2 falters it's most often because it doesn't quite know what it's reaching for or why. The result feels like something in between cargo cult checklist and heartfelt but slightly off-point fanfiction. I'm interested to see if SotFS changes my mind at all.

As a promising start, the meaty part of the description of the Soul of the Last Giant as seen in the LP:

SotFS posted:

The lord of the Giants, who had brought wrack and ruin to the entire kingdom, was said to have been felled by an unknown warrior. His beaten and broken remains were then dragged beneath the stronghold, where he was sealed away.

A little dry, but it's got some concrete information and provides hooks to hang future information on. If these were the opening sentences of a paper I'd call call it a competent introduction.

The same part in vanilla DS2 posted:

Many seasons had come and gone, and the giant prepared for his final rest. But his soul remained magnificent, testimony to his former strength.

This is "Since the dawn of time, Webster's dictionary has defined [paper topic] as..."-tier word barf.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 22:37

NGDBSS: Dec 30, 2009

DS2's less floaty than 1 and 3, but I'd estimate that it's also faster than both. (I have a video that I still need to analyze on that front.) Which makes sense coming from the mo-cap perspective, considering among other things that the real-world difference between large and small weapons in speed was that the former were quick while the latter were even more so. Really slow weapons tended to not get used as weapons in the first place but instead as tools for more mundane purposes, such as agriculture or forestry. A lot of the hollows in FoFG aren't that way precisely because it's an early area to get the player used to things.

Scholar in particular tweaked a bunch of lore and whatnot to make things less vague. DS2 originally was going for the same sort of subtlety as DS1 but went a bit too far; you could still puzzle things out but you had to squint a lot at the details. I remember getting to the end shortly after launch and wondering, "wait, what was going on here?" Then I checked out some item descriptions and realized what I had missed. The relevant information did exist back then, but it was too buried for its own good. Nowadays with the DLC and the final patches released shortly before Scholar, there's a lot more clarity.

# ? Jun 14, 2016 23:08

DMW45: Oct 29, 2011; Come into my parlor~
Said the spider to the fly~

For Agility, 105 does seem to be pretty much the go-to point. From what I've gathered, you can generally hit that at 32 adaptability if you don't put anything in attunement, which also raises the stat, albeit at a much lower rate.

# ? Jun 15, 2016 01:50

Genocyber: Jun 4, 2012

anilEhilated posted:

Eh, it's still just a gameplay reshuffle - assets are the same, story is the same and so on; what it really is is a balance patch. Not letting you upgrade to it appropriately for the DLC you have is simply stupid.

It does, though? If you own all of the DLC you can choose the upgrade option which saves you a bit.

And calling it a balance patch is vastly underselling all the changes they've made. It's more equivalent to something like the Odin Sphere re-release.

NGDBSS posted:

Scholar in particular tweaked a bunch of lore and whatnot to make things less vague. DS2 originally was going for the same sort of subtlety as DS1 but went a bit too far; you could still puzzle things out but you had to squint a lot at the details. I remember getting to the end shortly after launch and wondering, "wait, what was going on here?" Then I checked out some item descriptions and realized what I had missed. The relevant information did exist back then, but it was too buried for its own good. Nowadays with the DLC and the final patches released shortly before Scholar, there's a lot more clarity.

Notably there's cut dialogue for the Emerald Herald in which she pretty much directly states what's going on that they have never patched back in.

Still better than DS3 at least which seems to be straight up missing a lot of necessary information to piece things together.

# ? Jun 15, 2016 02:33

Xerophyte: Mar 17, 2008; This space intentionally left blank

BenRGamer posted:

For Agility, 105 does seem to be pretty much the go-to point. From what I've gathered, you can generally hit that at 32 adaptability if you don't put anything in attunement, which also raises the stat, albeit at a much lower rate.

Might as well post the damned table:

code:

Agility    iFrames
85         5
86         8
88         9
92         10
96         11
99         12
105        13
111        14
114        15
116        16

For comparison, DS1:

code:

Roll    iFrames
Fat     9
Medium  11
Fast    13
Ninja   15

I usually stop at 99 agility, but whatever breakpoint floats your boat. Just, don't stay at 85 agility's half-a-fat-roll if you want to actually dodge things.

# ? Jun 15, 2016 03:41

Synthbuttrange: May 6, 2007

This lp got me to fire up Scholars, which I had but havent played since basically I've got ds3 already. I dont know what it is but I just feel so clumsy in DS2's combat and/or dying to bumrushes everywhere.

# ? Jun 15, 2016 03:45

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 20:02

Wonderslug: Apr 3, 2011; You don't say.; Fallen Rib

SynthOrange posted:

I dont know what it is but I just feel so clumsy in DS2's combat and/or dying to bumrushes everywhere.

Xerophyte posted:

85 agility's half-a-fat-roll

"The curse" is waddling around in leaden clown shoes.

But for real, I think prior D* Souls experience is less transferable to DS2 than any other game in the series. Moving is different, blocking is different, timings are different, estus is so slow it's bordering on unusable in combat without terrain manipulation, and they fixed DS1's occasional input buffering weirdness by replacing it with different input buffering weirdness.

# ? Jun 15, 2016 05:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Official Cold Steel General Discussion Thread

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