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ShadowMoo posted:From what I am reading, most non-gamers are calling VR a fad similar to Google Glass or 3D glasses. I mean, that is why I got VR glasses to begin with. I was very skeptical of the entire thing. Having used it though, it's not the same as those two, but it's also not quite "there" yet either. It's a bit too much like scuba-gear.
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Jun 15, 2016 13:48
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I can see there being a lot of business applications for VR like construction, design, or job training. That market is just in the planning stages right now. It would be cool to have a VR walkthrough of a building that is being drafted.
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Jun 15, 2016 13:50
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Tom Guycot posted:I'm curious what visual flaws you were seeing in elite, as thats one of that standout games for presenting itself without anything that looks weirdly flat or textured in VR, for me anyways. Anything not nearby does look like it is projected on a flat plain, though considering distances involved that's pretty much realistic. When you jump between systems, the depth somewhat breaks the hyperspace illusion - it's pretty obvious most of the effects are just static images projected on low poly 3D objects. I personally find stellar objects seem too small - orbiting close to a planet or star feels like they're a couple of meters in diameter and only a couple of feet away. Also, not spherical enough. Not sure what exactly causes this. The worst though is that the small detail on everything causes a lot of aliasing that really isn't noticeable on ultra settings at high resolution on a good monitor, but on high-VR settings with a headset become very obvious. I still play the game a fair bit and enjoy it in VR, but there is plenty of room for improvement.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:11
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Elite likely wasn't made from start with VR in mind, but ported in mid-way through development.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:15
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http://uploadvr.com/giant-cop-speaks-oculus-exclusivity/ One of the other ocean guys talks about giant cop. He says they needed help getting the game out and the vive version will probably come out 2-3 months after the rift version. Though I'm wondering what exactly needs to be done to get the vive version out. Unless this oculus deal happened sometime ago, i wonder what they were doing for so long to not have vive controls already finished. ^^^^^ we just aren't built to deal with sizes and distances that large. Cojawfee fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 14:21
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ShadowMoo posted:I can see there being a lot of business applications for VR like construction, design, or job training. That market is just in the planning stages right now. It would be cool to have a VR walkthrough of a building that is being drafted. ..btt posted:I personally find stellar objects seem too small - orbiting close to a planet or star feels like they're a couple of meters in diameter and only a couple of feet away. Also, not spherical enough. Not sure what exactly causes this. Also most planets in reality aren't quite spherical. Even the Earth. Weird details like that are one of the things Elite actually tends to be pretty good about.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:24
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Yeah, that's why I prefaced it with "personally". I do realise that planets and stars aren't spherical, but that would barely be noticeable except in extreme cases at the distances I'm talking about. Still, I do think there's something wrong with the depth. The "infinite" plane that targets and distant stars are projected on only seems like it's a couple of meters away. It seems to move way too much when I move my head.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:28
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Cojawfee posted:Though I'm wondering what exactly needs to be done to get the vive version out. Unless this oculus deal happened sometime ago, i wonder what they were doing for so long to not have vive controls already finished. Its hard to say. I have used the SteamVR stuff with Unity, and it was pretty much a drop-in solution for the head tracking and room scale stuff, and it took me all of 20 minutes with a video tutorial to get the controller input working. That said, I can understand an indie dev studio wanting to have a more conservative launch without having to support 2 different VR headsets while simultaneously dealing with balance/bugs/etc in the base game itself. If it were me, I'd just bite the bullet and add support for both headsets and deal with the extra work rather than deal with the incredible backlash (holy poo poo their steam forum is a dumpster fire) but I don't know what their situation is so I can't pass judgement on them or anything.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:37
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Tom Guycot posted:Farlands was an awesome surprise at launch, its a fun and engrossing little casual game. I'm hopping they do an update when touch launches, and/or have another unannounced touch surprise like farlands was. I'm curious what visual flaws you were seeing in elite, as thats one of that standout games for presenting itself without anything that looks weirdly flat or textured in VR, for me anyways. Also yeah, whether its launched through home, or on its own its still using the oculus software and is exactly the same experience. ..btt posted:Anything not nearby does look like it is projected on a flat plain, though considering distances involved that's pretty much realistic.  Similarly, the skymap/galaxy background, however they generate it, looks a bit off for some reason. Colour compression or something, I'm not sure. I've always thought they could make it more impressive by having proper auto-exposure or lowering its brightness, so it's not constantly there even when you're looking at a bright planet or star or whatever. That way you get the proper effect of it fading in against the blackness of spaaaaace; and when you're looking at planets/stars they look more realistic (you would never be able to see the Milky Way in the same image as the daytime side of a planet). Less is more etc. Space Engine does this really well. Yeah the aliasing is bad so when I get my Rift and one of the new NVidia GPUs I'm hoping it'll be possible to run with supersampling. I kind of get what you're saying about planets and stars feeling a bit small, but I'm not sure if that' just my brain being unable to process the scale or if they have actually downsized them to make the 3D effect greater in VR. I kind of doubt it's the latter. What stood out in terms of scale issues was that on the huge stations, whilst they hold up really well on flatscreen, in VR I noticed a lack of fine surface detail. Basically felt to me like they needed more greebling, or perhaps a higher LOD transition threshold.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:39
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My biggest problem with Elite is the lack of an in-game web browser that I can use to watch Netflix while doing VR things.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:40
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ShadowMoo posted:I can see there being a lot of business applications for VR like construction, design, or job training. That market is just in the planning stages right now. It would be cool to have a VR walkthrough of a building that is being drafted. This is more or less what I do for a living, building and presenting non-game related VR tech demos, for arch vis, training, data vis etc. and I can assure you the "just a fad" mindset, while not uncommon, disappears the moment anyone tries on a proper VR headset.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:40
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Received the Vive in yesterday. My roommate and I got it set up pretty quickly and the chaperone setup was painless. I didn't have too much time so I just checked out job simulator, virtual desktop and universe sandbox. All three were super cool! Impressed with the lack of latency and the positional hand tracking goes a long way in making you believe you are there. When I created my first sun above me in universe sandbox I actually ducked because it was so huge and bright, haha. My roommate just loved the whole experience and, as a former cook, loved throwing poo poo all around the kitchen in job simulator. Feels like a winner!
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Jun 15, 2016 14:49
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There's a good piece on Kotaku about the exclusives debacle. Glad to see someone calling Oculus out if only mildly. Plus, the FFXV VR demo is a bit rubbish and the Batman one is good but will only be about an hour long. ..btt posted:Still, I do think there's something wrong with the depth. The "infinite" plane that targets and distant stars are projected on only seems like it's a couple of meters away. It seems to move way too much when I move my head.
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Jun 15, 2016 14:58
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..btt posted:I personally find stellar objects seem too small - orbiting close to a planet or star feels like they're a couple of meters in diameter and only a couple of feet away. Also, not spherical enough. Not sure what exactly causes this. Yeah, that's nothing to do with the game; human vision just works like that. When things are so far away that our normal mechanisms of depth perception stop working the brain gives up and just guesses. The only way to make astronomical bodies feel large and far away is paradoxically to do what Titans of Space does and make them much, much smaller and closer than they really are. Elite's naturally not doing that.
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Jun 15, 2016 15:20
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Truga posted:So because nvidia does something lovely to you, so can oculus? Nice whataboutism. I'm not trying to justify it, I'm just saying you can't act like there's no precedent. If someone invests in a nice G-Sync monitor they've de-facto locked themselves into buying Nvidia cards for the life of the monitor, and the same goes for a FreeSync monitor and AMD. "The monitor will still work", yeah no one is going to give up adaptive sync once they've spent some time with it. I can tell you this because I use it and it's the best thing to happen to monitors in decades.
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Jun 15, 2016 15:37
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El Grillo posted:There's a good piece on Kotaku about the exclusives debacle. Glad to see someone calling Oculus out if only mildly. Yeah it feels that way for me too in supercruise, but as soon as I drop to normal space and theres no perceptible movement of the bodies, they loose that feeling despite nothing graphically changing. I think its just the fact that in real life we'd never have the kind of velocities you get in supercruise against objects that large so we just have no frame of reference and it looks wrong. edit: Actually, when I think of being on mitterand hollow's surface (the moon that orbits so fast it does a rotation in about 30 seconds or something)and have that sense of scale to work off of while looking at the planet it orbits, even with that fast movement the planet still looks enormous like you'd expect. VVVV go to mitterand hollow if you haven't, it should thoroughly impress you regardless of any of this. Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 15:43
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I can definitely accept it's my dumb monkey brain interpreting cues incorrectly. I guess ultimately I'd prefer something unrealistic that feels "better", but that's a difficult, perhaps impossible target.
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Jun 15, 2016 15:50
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In Elite you are literally moving faster than the speed of light by a factor of 100 to 1000 fairly regularly and of course you will never ever get that in real life. There was a game demo/research thing that modeled the effects of moving faster than light and it just looks crazy and doesn't help gameplay at all so I can see why they would leave that out. This thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akbxzsqzF7k
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Jun 15, 2016 15:55
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Zero VGS posted:I'm not trying to justify it, I'm just saying you can't act like there's no precedent. No, the best thing to happen to monitors is VR. 2nd best that happened is HDR. Adaptive sync is a distant 3rd. Yes, it's a neat thing, but thankfully g-sync is pretty much dead on arrival, since similar freesync screens go for up to $300 less, so nvidia will have to support it sooner or later. Not to mention it's a part of DP1.4 or somesuch. G-sync won't last. Hopefully, neither will Oculus Store.
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Jun 15, 2016 15:59
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TomR posted:In Elite you are literally moving faster than the speed of light by a factor of 100 to 1000 fairly regularly and of course you will never ever get that in real life. There was a game demo/research thing that modeled the effects of moving faster than light and it just looks crazy and doesn't help gameplay at all so I can see why they would leave that out. Honestly ever since the first time i played elite I wished they had done some subtle colour shifting effect at least as you approach C, or something. It always disappoints me when i see the numbers tick through 0.8c 0.9c 0.99c, 1.0c, and theres just nothing.  I want a space game version of breaking the sound barrier in a flight sim.
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Jun 15, 2016 16:05
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Eve online used to do really cool blue/red shift effects in the first iteration of their engine. I wish more people did it like that. Including eve online, ever since the first graphics overhaul it doesn't look right anymore (it's just a blue/red overlay, including over all the black space, instead of just shifting the colours)
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Jun 15, 2016 16:06
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Zero VGS posted:"The monitor will still work", yeah no one is going to give up adaptive sync once they've spent some time with it. 
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Jun 15, 2016 16:08
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I don't know about adaptive sync, but I've been on top of new monitor stuff for years and G-sync is easily the biggest improvement to my gaming experience I've had from any of my yearly upgrades - especially as a twitch FPS gamer. Even though I always have my FPS at or above the 144hz refresh rate, if there's a driver update where I clear settings or some error and G-sync is turned off it is immediately noticeable. Having it off feels like moving in molasses in comparison. Of course, now with these two VR solutions out, I'd have to give them the top spot as far as changing my gaming experience goes! I was wondering if there are any tools, games, etc. that are must plays and that I might have missed only going through the Steam VR showcase. I bought universe sandbox, virtual desktop, the pool game and that one RPG and downloaded all the free high-rated demos/games. vv Somehow I've bought Minecraft like four times and it loses all my accounts. That's a great idea, though...it's been a long time since I've played. The motion controls work properly? Incredulous Dylan fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 16:30
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If you like building poo poo and own minecraft, it's really really good in VR. Also, War Thunder is free, and I find myself starting it up, clicking test flight and just flying around a random island in the free pre-ww2 slow flyers way more often than I want to admit. It's just so nice, and it doesn't stutter one bit, unlike elite or DCS.
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Jun 15, 2016 16:36
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ShadowMoo posted:From what I am reading, most non-gamers are calling VR a fad similar to Google Glass or 3D glasses. i'm a gamer and one of these people, I kinda think the VR gun got jumped a bit too early, everyone can see it's gonna be big and wants to seal the deal before it's ready and that's why everything is such a supreme clusterfuck. Although it HAS led to hilarious stuff like the VR backpack. All the craze just seems to have this weird tone of desperation around it. It's like they're constantly making huge, unlikely promises/proposals for those sweet investor bux. Of course I'm probably totally biased because VR holds no actual appeal to me personally. In my day we had to play games uphill both ways.
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Jun 15, 2016 16:38
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I think anyone who puts on one of these headsets would instantly say this will be the next thing if done right. I did just trying out the first Rift devkit and having like three applications to look at. Early adopters will just have to deal with a lack of AAA games for a while and that's fine. Anyone who jumped in expecting full experiences probably didn't think about just how long it takes to make a decent game - forget trying to make one incorporating a totally different style of interaction! Once the real content starts rolling out and is developed from the bottom up for, say, room-scale VR then I think people who try it will be hooked. Really, you just need one amazing game good enough to sell the experience. It has to look great, have superb audio design and really let you use the room space to explore if you have it. I don't know what the Mario 64 will be for VR right now, but we will all know the moment we start playing it.
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Jun 15, 2016 16:44
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Yinlock posted:i'm a gamer and one of these people, I kinda think the VR gun got jumped a bit too early, everyone can see it's gonna be big and wants to seal the deal before it's ready and that's why everything is such a supreme clusterfuck. Eh, it had to start somewhere. The hardware is good enough, and the biggest problem right now is the lack of games, but that problem can't be solved without a device on sale even if we waited 10 more years. Now that everyone who wants one can get one (and start developing games if they so choose) we should see a steady stream of content, and eventually it will be enough to actually justify the $800 price tag 
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Jun 15, 2016 16:44
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Incredulous Dylan posted:Really, you just need one amazing game good enough to sell the experience. It has to look great, have superb audio design and really let you use the room space to explore if you have it. I don't know what the Mario 64 will be for VR right now, but we will all know the moment we start playing it. Theres already that 'one amazing game' for a whoooooole lot of people, and in many cases a good handful of other 'one amazing games'. VR is here now, and I don't see it going anywhere.
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Jun 15, 2016 16:53
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Oculus defends its efforts to secure VR exclusives for the Rift I like this part. quote:Rubin told Ars that Oculus has no problem with these kinds of hacks at a root level. "If somebody has purchased content and they want to mod something to work on their PC and do whatever they want to do, nobody at Oculus has ever had a problem with that," he said. Oculus wouldn't even have any way of knowing of the existence of such personal mods, he argued. I find the part about "stripping out DRM" to be just adorable considering Revive worked fine without touching the DRM until Oculus added a hardware check to that DRM.
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Jun 15, 2016 16:59
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What is it with big companies and DRM? Like, you know this poo poo doesn't work, why you keep trying?
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Jun 15, 2016 17:02
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With Denuvo out there, DRM is likely to become a big thing. Denuvo has been out for a few years and has yet to be cracked. At most you get some hacky workaround. 3DM said that DRM cracking is likely going to be dead by 2018 due to the advent of virtual machine protection. Unless someone can find a new way to crack it. ShadowMoo fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 17:08
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So here's an interesting thing from Nyko, it's basically two wristbands that are a chaperone system and vibrate when they get close to the edge. http://gizmodo.com/this-invisible-fence-will-stop-you-from-blindly-running-1781929421 "VR Guardian VR’s unparalleled immersion is incredible, but when a virtual space starts to feel like reality and the boundaries of your world feel entirely arbitrary, it can also be hazardous. VR Guardian is a complete VR boundary system that lets users designate a “safe zone” for floor-scale gameplay, using sensors and wristbands to alert you before you trip over a couch or run into a wall. The VR Guardian uses four Bluetooth sensors to form a user-defined grid. The sensors are paired with two adjustable wristbands that vibrate and alert the user when they begin to encroach on the designated boundary. When not in use, the sensors and wristbands can be neatly stacked together for easy storage and simultaneous charging. VR Guardian is compatible with all VR systems, and will begin shipping in fall 2016 for an MSRP of $99.99." The pros as I see them are they are hardware agnostic, the base stations are wireless and easily moved to quickly change the play space, and it gives 'blind' tactile feedback if you are looking away from where your visual chaperone would normally show up. I can think of more cons, though. All 6 pieces are rechargeable, that's a lot of devices to keep charged. No mention of vertical bounds. The big one though is its $100 for something that could be done better in software by Valve and Oculus. Do the Vive wands rumble near chaperone bounds? Touch will have haptic feedback, so a few lines of code would get you there as well. Stormangel fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 17:14
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Oh, so modding the Oculus store is okay as long as you write the code yourself? In what world does this shitheel live?
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Jun 15, 2016 17:14
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Stormangel posted:So here's an interesting thing from Nyko, it's basically two wristbands that are a chaperone system and vibrate when they get close to the edge. Oh wow that is a really great idea. It seems like it would be much harder to ignore the vibration than it is to ignore the chaperone bounds. I have a decent amount of space, but I still end up walking into walls when my stupid brain just ignores the chaperone bounds.
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Jun 15, 2016 17:15
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ShadowMoo posted:With Denuvo out there, DRM is likely to become a big thing. Denuvo has been out for a few years and has yet to be cracked. At most you get some hacky workaround. I dunno what 3DM is, but it's steam making cracking games obsolete, not better DRM. There's just no motivation anymore. Steam is absolutely exploding in historical "pirate" countries. For example, Russia: http://steamspy.com/country/RU Why bother cracking something if your main audience is gone? I'm sure if there was still motivation to crack games, they'd still get cracked in days, maaaybe weeks. There's what, a dozen people working on Denuvo DRM? There's a million nerds out there who will try to crack your game if there's enough demand. Just due to the fact that every software has bugs, "working DRM" can't exist. Yeah, Denuvo is good, sure, but it's not infallible any more than any other DRM. If I buy something and can get it to run on my machine, I can dump a working unencrypted copy somewhere. We might have even come to the point where I'll need actual external hardware to do MITM between the CPU and RAM or some poo poo, sure, but there will always be a way.
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Jun 15, 2016 17:27
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Modern DRM is based on the principle that you don't have to stop your game being pirated, you just need to stop it being pirated in the first week because that's when the majority of people will buy or pirate it. If there's no pirated version available at that point, either they'll buy it instead or they would never have bought it. By that metric Denuvo is perfect; it's too hard to crack in the first week and after that point no-one cares any more. If Oculus don't realise this and are relying on Denuvo to give them indefinite hardware lock-in then they're setting themselves up for a nasty shock when VR ultimately becomes a big thing.
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Jun 15, 2016 17:40
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For me, as soon as things became easy and cheap to obtain it became easier to just pay a few bucks and get it off steam. Same with movies. Now that I have netflix/shomi/itunes/google play, there's no real reason to look at other ways to watch a movie if I can just pay five bucks to rent it or wait till it shows up on my streaming services. Just look at Game of Thrones. One of the most pirated shows ever, but of course you can't get HBO streaming in Canada without an expensive cable package so of course it is.
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Jun 15, 2016 17:49
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NRVNQSR posted:Modern DRM is based on the principle that you don't have to stop your game being pirated, you just need to stop it being pirated in the first week because that's when the majority of people will buy or pirate it. If there's no pirated version available at that point, either they'll buy it instead or they would never have bought it. By that metric Denuvo is perfect; it's too hard to crack in the first week and after that point no-one cares any more. Just Cause 3 came out a little over 6mos ago and there still isn't a working crack for it. Same with Farcry Primal.
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Jun 15, 2016 17:57
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I wonder what would have happened if facebook hadn't bought out Oculus: would they have been drm free? Would they have the money to pay for game exclusives? Would they even have been successful given that Valve was already secretly prototyping? It's interesting that HTC is offering money to invest in a variety of companies that would find a use for VR while Facebook is desperately trying to lock down gaming companies to propagate their storefront. Thor-Stryker fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 18:00
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Thor-Stryker posted:I wonder what would ult have happened if facebook hadn't bought out Oculus: would they have been drm free? Would they have the money to pay for game exclusives? Would they even have been successful given that Valve was already secretly prototyping? We'd probably have what they originally planned for CV1, something similar to the DK2 but a bit better. The reason why HTC marketed their headset as premium was because everyone was assuming the Rift was going to have similar specs to the DK2. When Facebook dumped poo poo tons of money into the company, they realized they could pull out all the stops and make something good. So we could either have (what I think is) the best quality headset and this facebook shitstorm, or something along the lines of OSVR. Though that second option doesn't seem too bad now that we're seeing what OSVR is bringing to the table next month. That is, something that spec wise is on par with the Vive and Rift for only 400 dollars. I don't know how good the quality will be, but if it's good enough and it works on SteamVR, it could be a really good deal.
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Jun 15, 2016 18:08
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