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GunnerJ posted:I live in a barbarian nation, I don't have first-hand experience of how any of this works. "Single payer" and "UHC" aren't the same thing. UHC just means everyone has coverage of some sort, period. Single payer means everyone who has coverage pays into it with a single entity. If a bigoted-as-gently caress entity set up a system where only <insert racial/religious/whatever group here> was covered, and they also did not allow the creation of any other health care systems or providers, that would be single payer, but it wouldn't be UHC. Germany is an example of the flip-side of things. They have state-provided care which everyone has, but also have private options which you can opt into, though I guess you're required to pay a tax to do it (since you're no longer contributing funds to the public side of things). Everything is also regulated out the rear end with pretty tight price controls and what sort of benefits you have to provide, the state is a bargainer in setting prices at some level or other, and so on. It's multi-payer UHC. It might also be referred to as a "Public option UHC". Also health insurance is mandatory. Basically they have the ACA (Obamacare) if the ACA hadn't been partially neutered by the courts. Also their healthcare costs are on par with other countries with some form of UHC, which is to say generally at least 50% less per person than the US.
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Jun 17, 2016 00:55
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Buried alive posted:"Single payer" and "UHC" aren't the same thing. OK, come on, I know that much.
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Jun 17, 2016 00:57
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One of the big issues with universal health care that seems to be a sticking point (hence all of the  OBAMA'S DEATH PANELS!!!! bullshit) is the fact that medicine costs money. No matter which way you slice it medicine costs money.Where does it come from? The strange thing about opposition to universal health care is that the main thing seems to be "how much value does a human life have?" They're demanding that you put down on paper, in dollars and cents, how much you're willing to spend on a human life. We obviously just can't say "everybody gets infinite money for whatever they need." It involves death so it gets into some nasty territory; how does somebody feel if the system says "we can't afford to keep grandpa alive." But then it gets into weird grey areas; so it costs $500,000 for his treatment. It has a 50% chance of working; if it doesn't work or he doesn't get it he has 6 months at most. If he gets it his life expectancy is 5 years to 10 years more, assuming nothing else kills him. Is that an acceptable cost? Private health care says "yes if somebody can pay for it." The question of "how much is a life worth?" becomes "however much you are willing to pay." That's it; how much you have is how much your life is worth. If you were born poor and never escaped poverty your life is almost worthless; if you were born rich you can afford millions of dollars of care relatively easily. Bill Gates could probably afford entire research teams dedicated to whatever terminal illness he eventually develops. Wherein lies another problem; have you ever noticed that celebrities frequently just happen to start foundations to treat debilitating diseases and disorders around they time they or somebody they know comes down with it? Perhaps you can argue that it's "well they realize how bad it is to have X now that they have X!" But why do we want a system that only starts really dealing with that sort of thing properly when somebody rich, powerful, or famous comes down with something? Sure it's great that they're willing to vomit gigantic bags of cash into their foundations but...what good does that do anybody that has something that a celebrity didn't come down with? This is one of the issues with private health care; the people with money get to decide what gets treated in the end, be it because they own the company doing it or because they can say "my disease must be treated have a large bag of money. Get to it." Public health care says "nah gently caress you we gonna research everything."
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Jun 17, 2016 01:48
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The strange thing about opposition to universal health care is that the main thing seems to be "how much value does a human life have?" They're demanding that you put down on paper, in dollars and cents, how much you're willing to spend on a human life. We obviously just can't say "everybody gets infinite money for whatever they need." According to the state of Arizona, a human life is worth less than $14,286.
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Jun 17, 2016 03:05
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Curvature of Earth posted:According to the state of Arizona, a human life is worth less than $14,286. I'm surprised that state went that high to be honest. ... Seriously, gently caress Arizona.
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Jun 17, 2016 03:08
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I don't think we should let them be a state anymore, frankly. Can we do, like, a backwards Brexit with Arizona? Everyone else has a referendum on whether or not to kick Arizona out of the Union?
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Jun 17, 2016 05:12
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paragon1 posted:I don't think we should let them be a state anymore, frankly. Enact Logan's run there and kill everyone over 30
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Jun 17, 2016 05:25
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Many countries with full on UHC also have private clinics, doctors and im some cases private practitioners operating from a public hospital. The UK, for example, has the excellent NHS but also has private health insurance. The only difference is you pay for private health insurance. I mean, that's literally the only difference: when you get sick and go to your insurer, you almost always end up getting treated by the NHS, who get a little bit of money from the insurer in compensation and you, the insured, get a few quid per day to cover out-of-pocket expenses while you're in hospital. The private insurer still, of course, takes the majority of your money. So it's a case of people giving away their money to a private company that actually does not do anything whatsoever just so they can feel superior to the plebs. Oh, and you can often claim for homoeopathy/chiropractors/reiki/acupuncture/other fake medicine on your insurance too. Which, even if these things worked, is still stupid because you can also often get them on the NHS.
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Jun 17, 2016 09:18
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Quote-Unquote posted:The UK, for example, has the excellent NHS but also has private health insurance. The only difference is you pay for private health insurance. I mean, that's literally the only difference: when you get sick and go to your insurer, you almost always end up getting treated by the NHS, who get a little bit of money from the insurer in compensation and you, the insured, get a few quid per day to cover out-of-pocket expenses while you're in hospital. The private insurer still, of course, takes the majority of your money. So it's a case of people giving away their money to a private company that actually does not do anything whatsoever just so they can feel superior to the plebs. You're paying for a private room, better food and more tv channels. Obviously the private sector can't compete in delivering actual medical treatment.
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Jun 17, 2016 09:55
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Klaus88 posted:Guess you've never experienced the glory of a bankruptcy brought on by medical costs either. No but my stepdad and two of my cousins who all live in the States have. I suppose my stepdad didn't really experience it, he died in the middle of the process and I have no idea who got saddled with his bills  Coincidentally, I spent a month in the hospital a few years back due to severe burns, I had to get a fair amount of skin grafts. Some of my more libertarian friends from back home refused to believe that things went the way I said they did because they simply could not accept it. They kept coming up with ridiculous theories and questions to find a way for it to have actually been a nightmare rather than the incredibly easy and painless (apart from the physical pain which they did a great job of managing) procedure. Eventually they decided that I just must not know any better and declared victory for the market.
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Jun 17, 2016 10:49
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paragon1 posted:I don't think we should let them be a state anymore, frankly. Realtalk, wouldn't that just be counterproductive? If Arizona was no longer part of the union then the few douchebags that seriously ruin the state like Sheriff Joe Arpaio would never be found guilty of contempt of a federal court.
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Jun 17, 2016 10:53
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Quote-Unquote posted:The UK, for example, has the excellent NHS but also has private health insurance. I'm going to actually play a bit of the Devil's Advocate here just for the sake of honest exchange, but it requires a bit of past history. I was born in Canada to non-Canadian parents and am a citizen by simple virtue of having exited my mother in Montréal, but I only lived there for relatively few years when we moved back to the UK, where I grew up and was primarily educated. I was very, very ill as a small child and frequently risked death, and I am eternally grateful to the Canadian national health services for my life... to this day I wonder what would have happened had we been in the US. I was doing somewhat better by the time we settled in England, but I still had some serious issues and I am also very grateful to the NHS. That said, neither the Canadian system nor the NHS are ideal examples of national health care. Canada's system has huge issues with wait times, shortages of primary-care physicians and other problems caused by being a huge country with a comparatively small population, while the NHS regularly ranks among the lowest in European health metrics and has been shredded by Cock-Sucker Cameron and other Torries constantly slashing the budget (at the behest of private insurance firms) - Canada was largely spared that under the misery of the Harper regime. If you ask any continental European about the NHS, they immediately wonder why it doesn't cover so many things, among other issues. I am not in any way taking the piss out of government-run health care, I am simply pointing out that Canada and the UK do a comparatively poor job of it given that they are two of the wealthiest nations in the world. Soviet Commubot posted:No but my stepdad and two of my cousins who all live in the States have. I suppose my stepdad didn't really experience it, he died in the middle of the process and I have no idea who got saddled with his bills La sécu in France is amazing. People who want to undermine it talk about how much France spends on health care, even though it's still nowhere near what the US does and the results are leagues better. A friend of mine's mum broke her wrist while on holiday in France and she had no traveller's insurance: total cost was about 110 euro. I shiver to think what a French(wo)man would have been saddled with in the US for an equally trivial issue. As for your libertarian "friends", Commubot, mieux vaut t'en débarrasser. With friends like that, I'd hate to meet your enemies. In any event, they are violating the NAP by something something something* *The first axiom of the NAP is that it only applies in situations where I personally am annoyed, inconvenienced or forced to pay a cost in any way.
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Jun 17, 2016 15:55
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QuarkJets posted:Realtalk, wouldn't that just be counterproductive? If Arizona was no longer part of the union then the few douchebags that seriously ruin the state like Sheriff Joe Arpaio would never be found guilty of contempt of a federal court. Sorry I thought the next step where we invade and set up an interim government was sufficiently implied.
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Jun 17, 2016 16:44
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JustJeff88 posted:If you ask any continental European about the NHS, they immediately wonder why it doesn't cover so many things, among other issues. They cover an amazing array of things compared to an uninsured American who depends upon free clinics and the emergency room, which was my experience growing up. You'd better be loving dying before we go to the doctor because not only is it going to cost hundreds of dollars we dont have, plus mom, our sole bread winner, is going to have to take unpaid time off work so we're losing her wage plus the doctor's fee, plus the full uninsured cost of medicine. Oh and then there's dental poo poo. I still have holes in my teeth from the free cleanings I got from the dental school as a kid. Which makes a larger point. Any system can provide wonderful care if you agree to exclude enough poor people.
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Jun 17, 2016 16:56
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Canada's health system is a messed up patchwork of provincial systems that, even given the size of Canada, could be much better. With more funding and more coordination
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Jun 17, 2016 18:02
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Somebody once described Canada's healthcare system as getting about 90% the same healthcare outcomes as the US but for half the cost.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:09
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So this gary duder inherited a state with taxes and a deficit, and left a state with no taxes and a budget surplus? And, people don't think that this is maybe like saying that you inherited a house with a job and regular bills and left a house with no job and no longer paying bills?
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Jun 17, 2016 19:13
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JustJeff88 posted:La sécu in France is amazing. People who want to undermine it talk about how much France spends on health care, even though it's still nowhere near what the US does and the results are leagues better. A friend of mine's mum broke her wrist while on holiday in France and she had no traveller's insurance: total cost was about 110 euro. I shiver to think what a French(wo)man would have been saddled with in the US for an equally trivial issue. La sécu really is amazing, especially for an American who grew up poor. Like Ron Jeremy we only ever went to the doctor when it was extremely serious because it was expensive and took time from work, which was especially problematic because I grew up on a farm. My poor person brain has been so programmed to avoid costs that when I got burned (about 40 square cm of 2nd degree burns) I took the metro to the hospital because my dumb pain-wracked brain assumed the ambulance would wreck me financially, since I don't exactly make a great deal of money. For months after my hospital stay I was really nervous checking my mail because I had the idea in the back of my mind that a bill would show up even though I consciously knew it wouldn't. There's a chance I might be moving back to the States in the coming months for a job that pays about 4x what I make now and has apparently decent insurance but I've been using la sécu to address some medical issues I've had for years and I'm hesitant to give up that cheap and easy access to healthcare. As for my friends, they're not full on Mises libertarians, they're just idiots who've swallowed libertarian talking points but they're decent enough guys to hang out with on my twice-per-decade visits to the Midwestern motherland.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:17
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How is the dental industry in Canada? Is it any better than the U.S.?
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Jun 18, 2016 07:14
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Mr Interweb posted:How is the dental industry in Canada? Is it any better than the U.S.? Until recently, many provinces didn't cover dental stuff outside of emergencies and for under 18s. This is actually pretty common in a lot of national health systems, because it wasn't considered "neccesary" when many of them started to be set up in the mid-20th century.
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Jun 18, 2016 15:16
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I would so love to see the dental industry "nationalized" or "socialized". That and eye care.
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Jun 18, 2016 19:47
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Baronjutter posted:I would so love to see the dental industry "nationalized" or "socialized". That and eye care. You'd just pull it under medicare for all. 
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Jun 18, 2016 20:12
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Nevvy Z posted:You'd just pull it under medicare for all. You're suggesting America annex Canada?
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Jun 18, 2016 20:34
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You never go full fallout.
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Jun 18, 2016 21:03
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fishmech posted:You're suggesting America annex Canada? I think I'd be happier with the reverse. Just promise to preserve the bill of rights and we're golden.
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Jun 18, 2016 21:07
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fishmech posted:You're suggesting America annex Canada? Well no, not now that you've foolishly given up the element of surprise.
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Jun 18, 2016 23:01
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fishmech posted:You're suggesting America annex Canada? They killed John Candy for even suggesting it. Canada don't gently caress around.
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Jun 18, 2016 23:14
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Stinky_Pete posted:Built his own house? I wonder if he put insulation in the stairs... Is there a good off-site summary of grover haus that I can show non-goons? Soviet Commubot posted:La sécu really is amazing, especially for an American who grew up poor. Like Ron Jeremy we only ever went to the doctor when it was extremely serious because it was expensive and took time from work, which was especially problematic because I grew up on a farm. My poor person brain has been so programmed to avoid costs that when I got burned (about 40 square cm of 2nd degree burns) I took the metro to the hospital because my dumb pain-wracked brain assumed the ambulance would wreck me financially, since I don't exactly make a great deal of money. For months after my hospital stay I was really nervous checking my mail because I had the idea in the back of my mind that a bill would show up even though I consciously knew it wouldn't. There's a chance I might be moving back to the States in the coming months for a job that pays about 4x what I make now and has apparently decent insurance but I've been using la sécu to address some medical issues I've had for years and I'm hesitant to give up that cheap and easy access to healthcare. Do you have to be a citizen of France to use their healthcare system?
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Jun 19, 2016 02:06
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:Do you have to be a citizen of France to use their healthcare system? Legal resident as far as I know. France is about as close to "universal" health care as anyone in the world, both in terms of people covered as well as what is covered. I can't confirm this, but I was told by what I would term a reliable source that a 30-something woman had to have a partial masectomy, and la sécu payed for a large portion of implant surgery so that she wouldn't have to be... let's say "lopsided" her whole life. This was told to me by a colleague of mine from France, so I'm inclined to believe it. Sadly, that's about the only thing that's going well in France right now. Unemployment, especially among the young, is very high and François Hollande, the current president, is about as popular as a porcupine enema. There is a lot of xenophobia right now, particularly towards Muslims, but in general any foreigners are looked down on because there is a huge "shortage" of work. I'm curious as to how Soviet Commubot, who I assume by his comments to be American and not an EU citizen, resides their legally as any jobs in the country go to French citizens first, then EU nationals. There will be a presidential election in France next year and I'm very worried about it. Unlike the US/UK/Canada, France actually has a variety of political parties with different ideologies and with the huge upswing in right-wing nationalism. There was a thread here on SA that was talking about the upswing in that both in the US and abroad, but it quickly devolved into everyone calling everyone else racist. I am very concerned that the Front National, which is essentially the "gently caress immigrants" fascist party, might come into power. I have sympathies with Jean-Luc Mélenchon, an extreme left candidate, but I am coming to realise more and more that no true progressive left government can thrive in this world so long as the global capitalist oligarchy has their way with everything.
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Jun 19, 2016 04:08
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Appropriately enough after my post about the benefits of alcohol deregulation, it turns out that Free as in capitalism, not free as in beer posted:Anheuser-Busch InBev is also the biggest beer distributor in the United States. And in several states, the law allows the company to distribute its own beer — and most markets have only one or two distributors. The company has also recently increased its control over the beer-distribution industry by purchasing five independent distributors (acquisitions that prompted a Department of Justice inquiry last fall). That means that Anheuser-Busch InBev can focus on building its own brands while effectively, and legally, shutting out competing craft brands. That's not lovely beer you're tasting, that's the flavor of glorious capitalism! All alcohol tastes gross to me. It's like chugging liquid rubber bands.
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Jun 19, 2016 08:27
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JustJeff88 posted:Legal resident as far as I know. France is about as close to "universal" health care as anyone in the world, both in terms of people covered as well as what is covered. I can't confirm this, but I was told by what I would term a reliable source that a 30-something woman had to have a partial masectomy, and la sécu payed for a large portion of implant surgery so that she wouldn't have to be... let's say "lopsided" her whole life. This was told to me by a colleague of mine from France, so I'm inclined to believe it. Yeah, legal resident although there is also a program for people without a visa but with stable resources and housing called l'aide médicale de l'état which pays for just about everything. I've never had that but an old coworker when I worked in fast food got one for his wife when her visa didn't get renewed. The fact that it even exists completely blows my mind. I came over as a student and transitioned to an extremely niche job, I teach in a Breton language immersion school. There are an extremely limited number of Frenchmen qualified and willing to do it and obviously almost no EU nationals and they're always short every year so I had no problem getting a work visa. That said I'm also concerned about the FN, I'm in the process of getting French citizenship but there's no way it'll be finished by the election. Even if the UMP wins, which they probably will, I'm more than a bit concerned that the rules will change in some way to gently caress me over.
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Jun 19, 2016 09:41
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JustJeff88 posted:There will be a presidential election in France next year and I'm very worried about it. Unlike the US/UK/Canada, France actually has a variety of political parties with different ideologies and with the huge upswing in right-wing nationalism. There was a thread here on SA that was talking about the upswing in that both in the US and abroad, but it quickly devolved into everyone calling everyone else racist. Sadly, what the progressive left doesn't understand is this tone-deaf attitude like that are what allow Nazis to thrive. You have to be able to reach out to people and redirect their concerns away from xenophobic scapegoats without calling them stupid or evil.
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Jun 19, 2016 16:35
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ChipNDip posted:Sadly, what the progressive left doesn't understand is this tone-deaf attitude like that are what allow Nazis to thrive. You have to be able to reach out to people and redirect their concerns away from xenophobic scapegoats without calling them stupid or evil. That's impossible, so you might as well enjoy yourself by calling them what they are. What kind of politeness would have dissuaded the Nazis?
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Jun 19, 2016 16:38
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ChipNDip posted:Sadly, what the progressive left doesn't understand is this tone-deaf attitude like that are what allow Nazis to thrive. You have to be able to reach out to people and redirect their concerns away from xenophobic scapegoats without calling them stupid or evil. Lmao at this idiot poo poo that pretends that people on the internet calling nazis stupid motherfuckers who want to suck hitlers weird dick is the extent of the interaction the left has with extremist groups, or that we should tsk tsk at calling nazis the moronic shitpiles they are Get bent
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Jun 19, 2016 16:39
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I don't mean being nice to the actual Nazis you fuckwits, I mean persuading ordinary people who are manipulated by their propaganda. Do you really think that 20+% of your neighbors are The FashTM who need their heads kicked in, or do you think that a small number of assholes have manipulated their fears while progressives have dropped the ball. Who do you think Joe Blow prefers, the progressive who tells him he's an uneducated retard, or the fash who charms him with bullshit?
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Jun 19, 2016 17:07
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ChipNDip posted:I don't mean being nice to the actual Nazis you fuckwits, I mean persuading ordinary people who are manipulated by their propaganda. Do you really think that 20+% of your neighbors are The FashTM who need their heads kicked in, or do you think that a small number of assholes have manipulated their fears while progressives have dropped the ball. Lefties aren't calling Joe Average an uneducated retard, generally speaking but sometimes you do need to give somebody a verbal slap upside the head to get their attention. When it comes to the disgusting beliefs of the far right it is very frequently the best idea to confront somebody with the brutal reality of what they're advocating. This is why people discussing lolbertarianism and debating it with people like Our Lord and Saviour Jrodimus point out the despicable evil that what he advocates actually contains.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:14
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ChipNDip posted:I don't mean being nice to the actual Nazis you fuckwits, I mean persuading ordinary people who are manipulated by their propaganda. Yeah. Do you think politeness would have done it?
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Jun 19, 2016 17:14
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ChipNDip posted:I don't mean being nice to the actual Nazis you fuckwits, I mean persuading ordinary people who are manipulated by their propaganda. Do you really think that 20+% of your neighbors are The FashTM who need their heads kicked in, or do you think that a small number of assholes have manipulated their fears while progressives have dropped the ball. Wow rude you're not gonna persuade anyone that way
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Jun 19, 2016 17:19
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ChipNDip posted:I don't mean being nice to the actual Nazis you fuckwits, I mean persuading ordinary people who are manipulated by their propaganda. Do you really think that 20+% of your neighbors are The FashTM who need their heads kicked in, or do you think that a small number of assholes have manipulated their fears while progressives have dropped the ball. We should make every effort to coddle racists and bend over backwards to make sure that they don't feel bad about themselves, and anyone who disagrees is a fuckwit.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:27
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Strawman posted:We should make every effort to coddle racists and bend over backwards to make sure that they don't feel bad about themselves, and anyone who disagrees is a fuckwit. meanwhile all of us uppity people of color need to shut up and stop making racists feel bad and 
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Jun 19, 2016 18:07
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