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The Kingfish posted:Are there any theologians who write about the profound implications that modern physics have on for our conceptions of God the Father? Specifically the concept of time as a spatial dimension? Gene Ray, Carlos Castaneda and Raël
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Jun 19, 2016 16:47
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The Kingfish posted:Are there any theologians who write about the profound implications that modern physics have on for our conceptions of God the Father? Yes whole branch of theology.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:02
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Care to elaborate? A name for the branch at least..
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Jun 19, 2016 17:33
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A good place to start is Alfred North Whitehead. He kicks off process theology. I'd look for contemporary process theologians. Not my thing so much, Christology in process is too low for me.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:47
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The Kingfish posted:Chomsky is a smart man, but he carried water for the khemer rouge early on, suggesting that refugee reports were fabricated or exaggerated, it's right there in the link you provided. which is only brought up by the usual suspects to criticize chompsky while they cry crocodile tears. nobody cares about it except those interested in dismissing chomsky out of hand, kind of like you're doing. "this guy don't believe in my religion! he's named after chomsky! chomsky was wrong that one time! this guy don't know nothing! religion protected!" - you, an idiot. 
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Jun 19, 2016 18:38
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Noam Chomsky posted:which is only brought up by the usual suspects to criticize chompsky while they cry crocodile tears. nobody cares about it except those interested in dismissing chomsky out of hand, kind of like you're doing. Well I could also bring up that taking two classes in psychology doesn't make one an expert at all. No matter how many ties you claim otherwise. Also this is far from the only thread where people have taken issue with you idolizing a genocide denier.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:40
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Crowsbeak posted:Well I could also bring up that taking two classes in psychology doesn't make one an expert at all. No matter how many ties you claim otherwise. Also this is far from the only thread where people have taken issue with you idolizing a genocide denier. does tying to upset me make you feel better about your religion? some religious beliefs you have there, so fragile that lowly forums poster noam "genocide denier" chomsky can get you tied up in knots over them.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:48
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Noam Chomsky posted:does tying to upset me make you feel better about your religion? some religious beliefs you have there, so fragile that lowly forums poster noam "genocide denier" chomsky can get you tied up in knots over them. Hey the fact you don't actually have any expertise in psychology, and can only go "Lol you're delusional" kind of is telling you don't have anything to add.Also I know atheist posters have called you out for your name and avatar as well. Sorry if reality triggers you.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:00
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Crowsbeak posted:Hey the fact you don't actually have any expertise in psychology, and can only go "Lol you're delusional" kind of is telling you don't have anything to add.Also I know atheist posters have called you out for your name and avatar as well. Sorry if reality triggers you. i guess i haven't seen or can't remember anyone who's mentioned my av before. who cares, anyway? you don't have to have any expertise in psychology to ask the questions: "Why do you believe your delusions are real?", "If your delusions are real then why aren't all delusions real?", "How do we the real from the delusion?", "Why are your visions, voices, whatever real and a true experience but Scientology or Mormonism or Islam isn't?" it's as another poster said - there no place for reason in this discussion because one side places no value on reason, just feelings. sorry i upset you enough for you to waste your time on the holy day attempting to upset me honestly, it's on you to explain how religious hallucinations/voices/visions/whatever are real and true and should be taken seriously and how they are different than what the mentally ill experience. but, you can't, so you won't. just like this recent discussion about physics and religion - you just fold any contradictory information into your belief structure and cognitively back-flip your way to making it all work so that you can keep on believing, since that is preferable to you, and then you whine when people say it doesn't make any sense. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 19:13
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Noam Chomsky posted:i guess i haven't seen or can't remember anyone who's mentioned my av before. who cares, anyway? Can you explain how believing God is in anyway like someone hearing voices telling them constantly. "That guy is watching you, he is going to kill you". Please do. otherwise at the moment it just looks like your trying to justify your reddit atheism you had two semesters of psychology.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:56
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Crowsbeak posted:Can you explain how believing God is in anyway like someone hearing voices telling them constantly. "That guy is watching you, he is going to kill you". Please do. otherwise at the moment it just looks like your trying to justify your reddit atheism you had two semesters of psychology. That... would appear to fit the description of someone who believes that everything they do is judged by someone who is omniscient and who will make them suffer greatly if they displease the person watching.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:59
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OwlFancier posted:That... would appear to fit the description of someone who believes that everything they do is judged by someone who is omniscient and who will make them suffer greatly if they displease the person watching. Yeah and sorry if your upbringing was lovely but most religious people don't feel that way.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:16
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Well no I assume you probably don't feel that way but it is sort of mechanically what is espoused by most forms of Christianity. I would imagine that you probably think of it more positively but you asked for why it would be similar. Functionally, it is.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:21
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OwlFancier posted:Well no I assume you probably don't feel that way but it is sort of mechanically what is espoused by most forms of Christianity. I would imagine that you probably think of it more positively but you asked for why it would be similar. Functionally, it is. Actually that isn't now I know you think because you were part of a lovely form of Christianity all must be like it but you see all are not like that. But then most atheist do have a lack of actual experience of the world when they justify attacking others.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:28
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I can't say I'm aware of any forms of Christianity off the top of my head that don't espouse that God sets forth rules for how you should live, knows if you break them, and determines what sort of afterlife and possibly favor while alive you'll receive based on your adherence to his rules. That's sort of the... basic tenet of Christianity. God exists, he wants you to do things a certain way, and there are consequences if you don't. Again I am sure you view your faith very positively, but I'm not sure that has a huge bearing on its foundations.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:31
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OwlFancier posted:I can't say I'm aware of any forms of Christianity off the top of my head that don't espouse that God sets forth rules for how you should live, knows if you break them, and determines what sort of afterlife and possibly favor while alive you'll receive based on your adherence to his rules. Wait so how is that compared to "That man who walks by me everyday, is judging me, so is that women, I know she talks about me behind my back". Come on explain how someone gooing through that day in and day out is compared to. "You know its probably a good idea I give that homeless man some money as Jesus said., maybe its not a good thing for me to be using porn so much, maybe I could do something else as this isn't good for me as I am dedicating myself to lusting after others. Yes you have people who think they should suddenly become Judge Dreed, but then so do marxists, and libertarians, or are they just like a schizophrenic as well?
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Jun 19, 2016 20:37
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Well I was taught that god is literally with you all the time, and even absent that, it means you're living your life being judged by an omnipresent force and that dictates a pretty sizeable portion of your actions. Alternatively you could view a religious community as inherently judging of your actions as well though I would hope that generally they wouldn't take it upon themselves to start meting out punishments. Depends on how you want to look at it but either the belief that you're being judged by your peers, that there's an omnipresent force judging you, or that there is an invisible force in the back of your head judging you all fit fairly easily into the belief in a judging God and the practice of a communal religion. Certainly the two aren't completely dissimilar. The primary difference is that generally, I think, religious people don't tend to be put off by it. In my case I just accepted it, whether I liked it or not didn't really signify. God's there and watching everything I do, and judging me for it. And that's true whether or not I like it.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:47
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Because the alternative is terrifying.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:49
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OwlFancier posted:Well I was taught that god is literally with you all the time, and even absent that, it means you're living your life being judged by an omnipresent force and that dictates a pretty sizeable portion of your actions. Alternatively you could view a religious community as inherently judging of your actions as well though I would hope that generally they wouldn't take it upon themselves to start meting out punishments.
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Jun 19, 2016 21:06
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You asked how they are alike, that is my answer. I highly doubt you would think they are the same thing if you are religious because you obviously would believe that one is the actual ruler of the universe and one is a crazy person.
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Jun 19, 2016 21:31
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Yinlock posted:Because the alternative is terrifying. How so?
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Jun 19, 2016 22:10
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OwlFancier posted:You asked how they are alike, that is my answer. I prefer creator. Ruler implies the mover is part of creation.
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Jun 19, 2016 22:12
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Noam Chomsky posted:you don't have to have any expertise in psychology to ask the questions: "Why do you believe your delusions are real?", "If your delusions are real then why aren't all delusions real?", "How do we the real from the delusion?", "Why are your visions, voices, whatever real and a true experience but Scientology or Mormonism or Islam isn't?" I never had any other "delusions". If I were taking psychiatric medicine or if I were prone to hallucinations, I might discard my experience with Virgin Mary as "one of those things" but it was a unique event. Also, it's not on me to explain stuff so that you should take me seriously. I honestly don't care the least bit about that. I merely shared my experience in response to the question posted by the OP.
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Jun 19, 2016 22:56
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People should want to hope that God doesn't exist. The alternative, that he's there and letting some of this bad stuff go on even if for some grand plan is horrifying. It's a tired argument of why does he let bad things happen, but it's right. There is good and bad in the world, but the bad is so,so,SO overwhelmingly bad. A child with crippling bone cancer. Mass slaughter of a day care Center. Africa. Oh but, what about falling in love, and puppy dog sneezes? Sorry, none of the good is good enough to outweigh some of the truely bad stuff.
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Jun 19, 2016 23:46
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urseus posted:People should want to hope that God doesn't exist. The alternative, that he's there and letting some of this bad stuff go on even if for some grand plan is horrifying. It's all right, they know. Very few people now living truly believe in an omnipotent god. The world is too well-explained and too real for such things to matter to the average person.
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Jun 19, 2016 23:50
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I would just like to say that splifyphus' post on page 5 was Genuinely Good and put into words some stuff I've been pondering for a while about why i, personally, am (relaxedly) religious-ish.
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Jun 20, 2016 00:17
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urseus posted:People should want to hope that God doesn't exist. The alternative, that he's there and letting some of this bad stuff go on even if for some grand plan is horrifying. The really bad stuff makes for even greater redemption. God "lets bad stuff happen" because from his perspective, (the correct perspective) these wrongs have already been righted.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:00
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SedanChair posted:It's all right, they know. Very few people now living truly believe in an omnipotent god. The world is too well-explained and too real for such things to matter to the average person. Many Christians would say that few people ever have truly believed in an omnipotent God. Narrow is the road.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:04
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The Kingfish posted:The really bad stuff makes for even greater redemption. God "lets bad stuff happen" because from his perspective, (the correct perspective) these wrongs have already been righted. I really don't understand what that means.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:05
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OwlFancier posted:I really don't understand what that means. Freed from the prison of time, God metes out justice patiently. For example when gays began to marry, God already knew that he would send the punishment of 9/11.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:09
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OwlFancier posted:I really don't understand what that means. The final judgment will make right all earthly wrongs. God knows all that will occur and looks towards the end result of creation which is redemption. I'm not saying something vulgar like "all tragedies ultimately serve some earthly end" like what Sedan Chair is suggesting.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:17
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The Kingfish posted:The final judgment will make right all earthly wrongs. God knows all that will occur and looks towards the end result of creation which is redemption. One of the handy things about Kali as a subset of the Brahman godblob is that while there's not exactly a redemption equivalent, she is expressly outside time and a bit fuzzy on inside-time suffering. Everyone will eventually reach whatever the hell true enlightenment consists of and all suffering is ultimately temporary (and educational, which is a very different thing than punitive). It's a bit easier to get my personal head around than your above version for Jehovah (because frankly a god's thinking SHOULD be alien  ), but there are definitely parallels.Addendum edit: at least in my particular orientation Kali also doesn't get her many hands dirty in the predestination business very often, the educational part has more to do with "why does the universe exist?". - So pieces of the godblob (and of Kali) can experience the universe in all its glory and horror.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:24
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The Kingfish posted:The final judgment will make right all earthly wrongs. God knows all that will occur and looks towards the end result of creation which is redemption. That doesn't really answer as to why they need to happen to begin with. Like even if God thinks they're fine the actual humans we're told he cares about most definitely don't when they experience them.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:35
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Rhjamiz posted:How so? I mean that in more of "is there an afterlife" terms. I like holding onto my sanity, thanks.
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Jun 20, 2016 02:25
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OwlFancier posted:That doesn't really answer as to why they need to happen to begin with. Well thats because humans are not pure slaves choose to allow evil to happen. We give in to the temptation of evil. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 02:28
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Crowsbeak posted:Well thats because humans are not pure slaves choose to allow evil to happen. We give in to the temptation of evil. Erm, no I think the overwhelming majority of people on the receiving end of suffering absolutely do not 'give in to the temptation of evil' and absolutely do not deserve to suffer. God has the capacity to do something about that.
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Jun 20, 2016 02:41
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Crowsbeak posted:Can you explain how believing God is in anyway like someone hearing voices telling them constantly. "That guy is watching you, he is going to kill you". Please do. otherwise at the moment it just looks like your trying to justify your reddit atheism you had two semesters of psychology. Believing in God because you "saw" him or he "spoke to you" or you "had a vision" is comparable to someone suffering from delusions because in both cases, there is no evidence to support that their experiences were real. God spoke to me today and he told me that , while he does exist, 100% of theists are wrong about the nature of his existence. He really did, and you can't prove otherwise, that this is in fact the truth, that God spoke to me directly and said that you're wrong about everything.
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Jun 20, 2016 02:48
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I sometimes like to privately say a "prayer" of sorts to the universe. Not wishing for things, just expressing appreciation for my health, a good and beautiful planet, a mind bogglingly complex but yet somehow human friendly universe, that sort of thing. Physics and cosmology cannot account for creation, so some sort of a creator cannot be ruled out. Any such creator is of course utterly unknowable, and for humans to say that it likes or dislikes this or that is complete nonsense. Whatever I say thanks to might not hear, or care, or exist at all. But I think even just the act of expressing gratitude is good for people. It's humbling. It feels good to do so. Even if it's pointless beyond that, it's completely harmless. So thank you, universe.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:11
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OwlFancier posted:Erm, no I think the overwhelming majority of people on the receiving end of suffering absolutely do not 'give in to the temptation of evil' and absolutely do not deserve to suffer. God has the capacity to do something about that. When did I say that suffering was caused because you were evil? I said evil as a whole causes suffering to befall mankind. Another notch on my Athiest bingocard, misrepresentation. Subyng posted:Believing in God because you "saw" him or he "spoke to you" or you "had a vision" is comparable to someone suffering from delusions because in both cases, there is no evidence to support that their experiences were real.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:20
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah when did I say that God appeared to me in a vision? Good to see the Atheists here are also resorting to strawmanning. There is a poster in this very thread who believes because he had a vision of the Virgin Mary. No one is saying you said these things, but please do not pretend that no one ever claims visions or messages from God.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:25
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