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Some Immigration Party voters have legitimate grievances which they whatever reason deem to be the fault of brown people, and efforts should be made to reach out to those people and understand where they're coming from and how to actually help them. That does not mean you should coddle them or legitimize the "refugee debate" or in any way shield them from the fact that they are voting for the suffering of human beings. Both sides do not, in fact, have equally valid points, and trying to pretend otherwise only gives power to the Trumps and Hitlers of the world. And on this, an internet comedy forum that costs money to use, it does not matter one bit what Immigration Party voters think of the way "progressives" describe them, because anyone who posts here with those political views has enough of a persecution complex to last a lifetime.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:15
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Kajeesus posted:Some Immigration Party voters have legitimate grievances which they whatever reason deem to be the fault of brown people, and efforts should be made to reach out to those people and understand where they're coming from and how to actually help them. Yes, I was trying to make a statement that was about the general electoral trend rather than debates people may have had with some diehard racists on the internet. People on an internet comedy forum do not make up enough people to elect a government. Greece and Spain have some radical right-wing parties, but they've also managed to stir up a greater amount of left-wing populist sentiment as well. Are the British and Austrians just too racist? Maybe. But maybe because their Left-wing parties have been lazy or promoting neoliberalism for years. Then, after a massive global capitalist crisis, they don't do poo poo. Then there's a refugee crisis, and when already strained public services get even more strained to provide necessary humanitarian need, they scream RACIST at anyone who asks questions rather than reframing the debate towards public services cuts and how they are bad (the Left as a whole in general, not people on the forums or intellectuals who are good at analyzing this, but not so great at getting the message out). If somebody says "Ban Islam, deport Muslims", they are most likely racist. On the other hand, lots of people are simply fed up, manipulated by racists, and then forced to jump through hoops to avoid being smeared when they mention their concerns to left-wing groups, or just afraid to say anything at all. These modern fascists are getting most of their support from the working-class. Are the white working class simply racist filth? Anyway, a stupid throwaway comment went way off topic from Libertarians. ChipNDip fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 19:56
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ChipNDip posted:Are the white working class simply racist filth? Yes, a whole shitload of them are, at least in America. I don't know the solution to this, because trying to engage with them honestly devolves into them spouting racist talking points. Education seems like the solution, but they hate "liberal elite colleges" so I guess they just want to stay in their racist safe space bubbles.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:02
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ChipNDip posted:Sadly, what the progressive left doesn't understand is this tone-deaf attitude like that are what allow Nazis to thrive. You have to be able to reach out to people and redirect their concerns away from xenophobic scapegoats without calling them stupid or evil. lol you're a moron who thinks that calling someone a racist on an internet forum is "tone-deaf" and enables fascism
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Jun 19, 2016 20:03
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I can bring this back around by pointing out libertarian politics is pretty much one giant tone argument. The government is constantly disrespecting their rights to be obnoxious to the entire rest of society and the NAP boils down to the method in which those in power extract legitimacy from the governed. "If only a warlord was negotiating a tithe from me instead of having to pay taxes! I would be free if personhood was the largest form of governance!"
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Jun 19, 2016 20:04
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Sure seem to be a lot of white leftists who don't get that in America, millions of white working class voters voted to gut their own social safety nets and bust their own unions once blacks were let into the Democratic Party You're not going to lure them into the party of racial minorities when their condition for enfranchisement is the disenfranchisement of the current party base Just because they're working class doesn't make them right about everything, especially if they don't care much for the 40 percent of the American working class that isn't white Jerry Manderbilt fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 20:07
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ChipNDip posted:But maybe because their Left-wing parties have been lazy or promoting neoliberalism for years. Then, after a massive global capitalist crisis, they don't do poo poo. Hmm, maybe the problem isn't that the left is being too mean to racists after all.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:34
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The conservatism of the white working class is way overblown. They're racist as gently caress, yes, but that's not the only wedge issue Republicans have been using. Environmentalism is another big one—the working class has absorbed the idea that environmentalists destroyed logging and mining, and that regulation is shutting down good jobs. Even if the left were to stupidly throw PoC under the bus to appeal to the white working-class, they'd still whine about the closing of coal mines and grumble about spotted owls. It's the white middle-class that's the problem. The Tea Partiers are not and have never been working-class. They're comfortably middle class. The white working class have always been under assault, so their resentment is at pretty much static levels—there's always a new class of immigrants to blame. The decline of the white middle class, on the other hand, has opened up a gigantic can of bees, hence the explosive reactionary movement propelling a fascist like Trump onto a major-party ticket. (Ironically, a decent chunk of the white middle-class enjoys things like national forests enough for every hunting and outdoorsman association to burst onto the scene as soon as Republicans suggest selling off federal lands, because they know their hobby will be threatened by private landowners holding all the wilderness. They've been a key part of the bulwark keeping Republicans from mass-selling all government-owned lands—it's happened here and there, but not at the scale or rate right-wingers would like, because it's a rare moment when their own usually-loyal demographic turns against them. It's probably one of the last issues that people will cross party lines for.) Curvature of Earth fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 21:49
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Curvature of Earth posted:The conservatism of the white working class is way overblown. They're racist as gently caress, yes, but that's not the only wedge issue Republicans have been using. Progressive politicians can appeal to whites without slagging off minorities or throwing out environmentalism. Bernie was not popular with minorities, and he did handle Black and Latino voters' concerns pretty awkwardly at times, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that he threw them under the bus. Curvature of Earth posted:Environmentalism is another big one—the working class has absorbed the idea that environmentalists destroyed logging and mining, and that regulation is shutting down good jobs. Even if the left were to stupidly throw PoC under the bus to appeal to the white working-class, they'd still whine about the closing of coal mines and grumble about spotted owls. This is just a massive failure in controlling the narrative. Environmentalists would have more success if they stressed the impact to people rather than wild animals that they might never see. Your water and air being poisoned are much starker images than spotted owls. People are selfish, but they also like progress and stable societies. You can use this against lots of libertarians insane proposals. Privatize the fire department? Do you want your house to burn down if it's not profitable to put it out?
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Jun 19, 2016 22:40
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Soviet Commubot posted:Yeah, legal resident although there is also a program for people without a visa but with stable resources and housing called l'aide médicale de l'état which pays for just about everything. I've never had that but an old coworker when I worked in fast food got one for his wife when her visa didn't get renewed. The fact that it even exists completely blows my mind. Can you hold dual citizenship with both the US and France?
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Jun 19, 2016 23:05
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Lefties aren't calling Joe Average an uneducated retard, generally speaking but sometimes you do need to give somebody a verbal slap upside the head to get their attention. When it comes to the disgusting beliefs of the far right it is very frequently the best idea to confront somebody with the brutal reality of what they're advocating. This is why people discussing lolbertarianism and debating it with people like Our Lord and Saviour Jrodimus point out the despicable evil that what he advocates actually contains. Yeah and it worked on Jrod so why wouldn't it work on anyone else 
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Jun 19, 2016 23:07
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Stinky_Pete posted:Yeah and it worked on Jrod so why wouldn't it work on anyone else jrode was a dense piece of poo poo and nothing will ever work on him
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Jun 19, 2016 23:31
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:Can you hold dual citizenship with both the US and France? Soviet Commubot would know for sure, but I"m almost certain that you can. I have a friend that married a French Canadian/French woman, and he plans to apply for French citizenship as soon as it is possible. As a counterexample, Japan only allows you to be a Japanese citizen and nothing else. If you take citizenship with another country, you have to renounce your Japanese citizenship as well. Of course, what they don't know wouldn't hurt them...
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Jun 20, 2016 01:57
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WampaLord posted:Yes, a whole shitload of them are, at least in America. I don't know the solution to this, because trying to engage with them honestly devolves into them spouting racist talking points. Rural white people are frequently terrifyingly racist. Rural America, especially in the rust belt, is hurting something fierce. Fact is white, blue collar, rural folks are getting screwed over and they know it. This is why the right blames everything on Oblammo; they know their bloc contains a poo poo load of angry,broke white people that are struggling to get by. Meanwhile educated liberals are telling these people that the gut feelings they use to vote are factually wrong. Turns out that the answer to crime, addiction, and poverty isn't more guns, morepolice, and more jails. Then the right screams  OBAMA GONNA TAKE YOUR DOLLARS when it isn't even working class folks that the bulk of taxes will come from. But they feel unsafe and don't want their tax dollars to be eaten by mystical welfare faeries so they vote all r all the time.That's also a demographic that frequently becomes police so of course they want more money to go into the force's hands.
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Jun 20, 2016 02:18
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JustJeff88 posted:Soviet Commubot would know for sure, but I"m almost certain that you can. I have a friend that married a French Canadian/French woman, and he plans to apply for French citizenship as soon as it is possible. Japanese prison.
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Jun 20, 2016 02:36
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ChipNDip posted:The original comment was in regards to right-wing radicals in Europe, where the working-class overwhelmingly backed Hofer in Austria, and current polls say they will overwhelmingly back Brexit. FN support is also disproportionately working class. You think this is in any way based in logic, Michelle Obama tried to convince people to give their children soda instead of water and I even know several parents who intentionally bought Coke to spite her. Hell look at those people who breath in the exhaust fumes just to spite him, this is all driven by looking for something to hate and you can't explain your way out of it to most people.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:06
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So maybe this is libertarianism 101, but assuming private ownership of all property happened, how would the transfer of all that land take place? Homesteading? Purchase from the federal government? And isn't the privatization of the former Soviet unions collective assets and the subsequent descent into oligarchy like and immediate and obvious rebuttal?
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Jun 20, 2016 05:19
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JustJeff88 posted:As a counterexample, Japan only allows you to be a Japanese citizen and nothing else. If you take citizenship with another country, you have to renounce your Japanese citizenship as well. Of course, what they don't know wouldn't hurt them... Don't be so sure about that. I'd post this in the Schadenfruede thread if it weren't such a niche interest. I'm quite satisfied with the way it turned out 
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Jun 20, 2016 05:22
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socialsecurity posted:You think this is in any way based in logic, Michelle Obama tried to convince people to give their children soda instead of water and I even know several parents who intentionally bought Coke to spite her. Hell look at those people who breath in the exhaust fumes just to spite him, this is all driven by looking for something to hate and you can't explain your way out of it to most people. err you got that the other way around with the soda and water.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:26
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Ron Jeremy posted:So maybe this is libertarianism 101, but assuming private ownership of all property happened, how would the transfer of all that land take place? Homesteading? Purchase from the federal government? And isn't the privatization of the former Soviet unions collective assets and the subsequent descent into oligarchy like and immediate and obvious rebuttal? Walter Block suggested revolutionary tribunals soooo
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Jun 20, 2016 05:33
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Ron Jeremy posted:So maybe this is libertarianism 101, but assuming private ownership of all property happened, how would the transfer of all that land take place? Homesteading? Purchase from the federal government? And isn't the privatization of the former Soviet unions collective assets and the subsequent descent into oligarchy like and immediate and obvious rebuttal? We asked jrod this question, and his answer was, paraphrased: we don't have to worry about it because in a freed market the wealth will naturally flow to the most deserving, if your Cherokee rear end can't earn enough gold to buy back your land you didn't deserve it anyway. I think he made an exception to this for people who could definitively prove a straight-line ancestral claim to a specific piece of stolen land back however-many generations. And also an exception for any descendant of slaves who could definitively trace their lineage back to a specific plantation could then sue to turn the current owners out and get that 40 acres and a mule, but if another descendant of slaves has an older claim you're SOL but thank your grand granddad for us for the free labor bye.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:40
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Right wing Libertarianism is garbage.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:48
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VitalSigns posted:We asked jrod this question, and his answer was, paraphrased: we don't have to worry about it because in a freed market the wealth will naturally flow to the most deserving, if your Cherokee rear end can't earn enough gold to buy back your land you didn't deserve it anyway. But remember only (probably completely unprovable) individual claims count, no using tribe wide claims! Whats that? Your tribe didn't have a concept of individual ownership and exclusive use of discrete parcels of land? Tooooo loving bad.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:58
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:Right wing Libertarianism is garbage. Is there left wing libertarianism?
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Jun 20, 2016 06:00
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:Is there left wing libertarianism? Noam Chomsky is a Left-wing Libertarian, friend. He actually has sound theory, but Left-wing Libertarianism is pretty close to a mix of anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism
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Jun 20, 2016 06:06
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:Can you hold dual citizenship with both the US and France? You can, although the FN wants to change that so I need to get it while the getting's good. ToxicSlurpee posted:Rural white people are frequently terrifyingly racist. Rural America, especially in the rust belt, is hurting something fierce. Fact is white, blue collar, rural folks are getting screwed over and they know it. This is why the right blames everything on Oblammo; they know their bloc contains a poo poo load of angry,broke white people that are struggling to get by. Suburban white people are just as bad as rural ones, they're just better at dog-whistling.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:08
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:Is there left wing libertarianism? Yes!  Yes aaarggghhhhhh 
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Jun 20, 2016 06:08
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Has there ever been a damnatio memoriae as thorough as the excision of anything about anarchism from the mind of the American public
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Jun 20, 2016 06:11
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SedanChair posted:Has there ever been a damnatio memoriae as thorough as the excision of anything about anarchism from the mind of the American public Talk to me like at a 5th grade level please
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Jun 20, 2016 06:22
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SedanChair posted:Has there ever been a damnatio memoriae as thorough as the excision of anything about anarchism from the mind of the American public uhhh they're the guys immigration were super scared of and who shot William McKinley. people were super convinced they wanted to bomb and set fire to everything. that's about all i got.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:36
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:Noam Chomsky is a Left-wing Libertarian, friend. He actually has sound theory, but Left-wing Libertarianism is pretty close to a mix of anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism SedanChair posted:Has there ever been a damnatio memoriae as thorough as the excision of anything about anarchism from the mind of the American public Oh, ok I guess I just wasn't thinking of the L-word being applied to left-anarchism.When I hear 'libertarianism' I just assume it's either the wishy washy "fiscally conservative and socially liberal" or some right-wing "privatize absolutely everything" kind of ideology.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:44
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"Civil libertarian" used to be a phrase regularly applied to ACLU types.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:59
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SedanChair posted:Has there ever been a damnatio memoriae as thorough as the excision of anything about anarchism from the mind of the American public Americans have been convinced that "the market" is the opposite of "the government" in the sense that the less there is of one thing, the more there is of the other. So communism is total government while anarchism is total market, which is why anarcho-capitalism is plausible.
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Jun 20, 2016 14:36
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Soviet Commubot posted:Suburban white people are just as bad as rural ones, they're just better at dog-whistling. I think what really determines this is how much you live and work around other races. It's hard to be a racist rear end in a top hat in California if you have even an ounce of empathy, just because you have an understanding that not everyone in the country is a WASP. That being said, I've run into plenty of assholes who don't have that ounce of empathy to start with.
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Jun 20, 2016 14:52
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SedanChair posted:Has there ever been a damnatio memoriae as thorough as the excision of anything about anarchism from the mind of the American public Anarchism is bullshit, states are great. Nice ideas for 1800 maybe, useless past 1950.
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Jun 20, 2016 15:40
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Dirk the Average posted:I think what really determines this is how much you live and work around other races. It's hard to be a racist rear end in a top hat in California if you have even an ounce of empathy, just because you have an understanding that not everyone in the country is a WASP. That being said, I've run into plenty of assholes who don't have that ounce of empathy to start with. not if you're a rich asian who lives in a town or neighborhood that only has rich asians (like my own) or if you're from a whitebread small town or suburb (yeah, those still exist here, especially in the wannabe "state of jefferson" and the suburbs east of sacramento)
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Jun 20, 2016 16:39
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fishmech posted:Anarchism is bullshit, states are great. Nice ideas for 1800 maybe, useless past 1950. I don't agree with anarchism, but I can definitely sympathize with it. They at least acknowledge that power structures can lead to massive abuses, and unlike the Libertarians they understand that government isn't the only flavor oppression can come in. The problem comes when they declare all power structures to be bad by definition, and think it's possible to create a world without them.
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Jun 20, 2016 16:41
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fishmech posted:Anarchism is bullshit, states are great. Nice ideas for 1800 maybe, useless past 1950. Your relentless efforts to denigrate anarchism must be the best possible way to both introduce people to anarchism and predispose them to liking it
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Jun 20, 2016 16:49
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Goon Danton posted:Welcome back friend! I just want to reiterate a couple questions so that you don't have to dig through multiple pages to find them. Namely: I'm going to keep it short... Wasn't familiar with the Violinist before it being mentioned here. My opinion? It's a flawed analogy. Both you and the violinist exist before the interaction occurs. Pregnancy is the creation of life. And then the fact that they found you to sustain the violinist is makes any action moral depending on how much you value life. You either value life more or "right to body" more... For me personally, I'd stay hooked up in that scenario and we'd have to figure out redress for the criminal actions and that you've tied me up for months. Aside: Rabid violin fans?!? Sounds like Viola players... the weirdest people you'll ever meet. The only reason I would personally take no action on abortion is, knowing that prohibition would not work, I wouldn't want to push mothers into situations where they could die themselves because they're having to go through shady means to get one. We are at a weird period... we're pretty good at preventing pregnancies and terminating them, but not so much at sustaining them outside an unwilling mother. Now the racial question... again. The government doesn't have rights, individuals have rights. The government has powers that are granted to them. Yes, they have the power to enforce equal treatment in public situations. If you're business is open to the public, you should service the public. If you don't want to bake a gay nazi cake that might violate your personal ethics... don't bake custom cakes. Serve only pre-made cakes. To me, when you're stating to the government that you're forming a public business (which could be a long freakin' discussion) you're agreeing to abide by their rules. This is Gary Johnson's stance and he DID get some kickback because it doesn't follow the strict voluntaryism of some people. Now the part other may not like about my viewpoint is if you're truly private as a business, membership fee and sign an agreement that you can admit and exclude whoever you feel like... I don't view it as the government's job to "enforce" in that situation. I also don't generally agree on the enforcement most think of too. Jail? Fines? Literal force? Nah, strip their business licenses and tax ID. You then either have to reform as a new completely private business or continue and the government can and should nail you for tax evasion. (forms of taxes could be another long discussion, I don't agree with income tax AND business tax AND sales tax AND fees all at the same time) I think one issue many have with my stances are also I'd have different answers for what should be done under what we currently have politically vs. what ideally I'd like. Ideally I'd like the government out of healthcare, but that's not really possible without utterly loving the system we have right now. Under this as I said before I'm okay with single-payer healthcare because healthcare doesn't act as a "free market". When you need help you need it right then. You can't price compare for "I'm going to die in the next few minutes". We probably could have done reforms that would have made the healthcare market function better, but that ship has sailed and we're left with the dildo of compromise up our bums. I do find it interesting the reactions to rising cost though. Anyone notice locally that "urgent care" clinics are popping up more? I've used them rather than waiting to see my primary care doctor and it was great for simple stuff like when I somehow managed to get pink eye. At the rate we're going the only "personal touch" we'll get from our medical professionals is a prostate/breast cancer exam... might as well just go for the medical equivalent of a quick change oil service. Stinky_Pete posted:Here's a link to my effortpost as well Not ignoring you. I just don't have the time to keep up with the thread and write responses I'm satisfied with. I don't really think we're far in some areas... it's a tough conversation because it's not just education, it's funding it and other discussions such as funding it and debates on structural disadvantages, etc... if we rewound 10 years ago to before the interest rates cranked up I don't think it'd be a topic of discussion. I called my reps then and the consequences of something that seemed pretty small we're feeling now.
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Jun 20, 2016 16:58
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xwing posted:Now the racial question... again. The government doesn't have rights, individuals have rights. The government has powers that are granted to them. Yes, they have the power to enforce equal treatment in public situations. If you're business is open to the public, you should service the public. If you don't want to bake a gay nazi cake that might violate your personal ethics... don't bake custom cakes. Serve only pre-made cakes. To me, when you're stating to the government that you're forming a public business (which could be a long freakin' discussion) you're agreeing to abide by their rules. I don't see a meaningful difference between a "right" and a "power" in this. Either way, you're asking "is it permissible for <entity> to do <thing>" whether the permissibility is from having a right to do <thing> or being empowered to do <thing>. So why are you insisting on this distinction?
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Jun 20, 2016 17:04
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