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1500quidporsche posted:My point is more that I don't think there is that much time in having 60 different settings for the engine. If I was a manufacturer I'd honestly distill it down to 5 and take what I suspect would be a 0.2-0.3 time penalty. then you'd have to force them to do that in the rules because two tenths is an enormous amount of time and no one is to going to concede that just for simpler settings. and there are countless possible knock-on effects you aren't considering. i mean they have separate engine maps for qualifying, the warm up lap, the start, various possible power modes depending on fuel consumption during the race, the cool down lap. i think there are like 12. but even that's not what we're discussing, much like lewis that setting is just a single knob. there are pages and pages of more complex settings that would only need to be accessed by the driver if something unforeseeable goes wrong.
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Jun 20, 2016 17:25
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I assume that the settings are for individual engine components so I don't think you can actually simplify it too much without it costing a lot of time. Like I assume there are all little switches for turbo, fuel consumption, battery charging, and whatever billion little things are in an F1 power unit. Holding all those constant or increasing/decreasing them all uniformly probably would cost a lot of time or force cars to retire more often if one of those things isn't working right.
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Jun 20, 2016 17:25
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Yeah, I feel like saying "well, just simplify it" totally ignores how complex the cars and the situations they're in are.
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Jun 20, 2016 17:28
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1500quidporsche posted:My point is more that I don't think there is that much time in having 60 different settings for the engine. If I was a manufacturer I'd honestly distill it down to 5 and take what I suspect would be a 0.2-0.3 time penalty. If all the teams have to do this then, ok it may cost tenths of a second and that is huge, but every team will be in the same boat. It will then be another part of set up for the engineers. Simplify it for the drivers, simplify if for the fans because they can understand very easily that Lewis is in mode 4 and nico is on mode 5 and yet Lewis is still catching him therefore Nico must be poo poo and a fraud.
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Jun 20, 2016 17:36
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Maybe Mercedes engineers and mechanics just need to stop being idiots and setting the engine to the wrong mode pre-race.
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Jun 20, 2016 17:38
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wicka posted:then you'd have to force them to do that in the rules because two tenths is an enormous amount of time and no one is to going to concede that just for simpler settings. and there are countless possible knock-on effects you aren't considering. i mean they have separate engine maps for qualifying, the warm up lap, the start, various possible power modes depending on fuel consumption during the race, the cool down lap. i think there are like 12. but even that's not what we're discussing, much like lewis that setting is just a single knob. there are pages and pages of more complex settings that would only need to be accessed by the driver if something unforeseeable goes wrong. I'll admit I'm dumbing it down and you likely can't get it into the single digits but there is such a thing as needlessly complex which I think a lot of these settings are. My personal bias is a bit of an influence here but I'm always of the opinion that things work best when they're in a state where you're not endlessly fiddling with them. I also think we probably aren't being told how often the drivers aren't in an optimal setting and these cars wouldn't be that much slower.
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Jun 20, 2016 17:38
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gret posted:Maybe Mercedes engineers and mechanics just need to stop being idiots and setting the engine to the wrong mode pre-race. they only did that with rosberg though, hamilton's car legitimately broke during the race and he was not allowed to be told how to fix it
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Jun 20, 2016 17:48
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wicka posted:they only did that with rosberg though, hamilton's car legitimately broke during the race and he was not allowed to be told how to fix it good gently caress Lewis
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Jun 20, 2016 17:49
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wicka posted:they only did that with rosberg though, hamilton's car legitimately broke during the race and he was not allowed to be told how to fix it Lewis broke it himself. http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/analysis-how-hamilton-was-put-in-the-shade-by-rosberg-s-perfect-race-790173/?s=1 So they were allowed to tell him that it was related to the mode he was in. quote:"We were allowed by the FIA, because we asked permission, to tell the driver that the problem was related to his current mode, i.e., 'Your problem is because you are in X.' In other words - 'you have to go to pretty much any other mode'. It also sounds like Lewis stepped on a few toes after the race, as Mercedes are very busy throwing him under the bus..
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Jun 20, 2016 17:58
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Ok so two dials. One has turn engine from 0-10. The other with overrides on it for emergencies. Engineers would have no problem with programming one mode that tells the engine that the MGU isn't working - this is the crux of the problem, the engineers want the driver to go though 23 settings to fix a problem and drive at the same time and think that if they insist that it's easy enough times then it will become true. When the reality is that there could be one setting and "close enough". It's like the boss who won't listen when you tell him that the building is literally on fire and he goes "so fix it then".
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Jun 20, 2016 17:59
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The other alternative is just an alternative override knob with 3 or 4 engine maps. You have Economy, Harvest, Normal and Power. It overrides all the other settings and you get a generic set up.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:07
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Lewis broke it himself. quote:Rosberg was helped by the fact that, when he suffered a loss of power, he had only recently switched to the suspect mode – and he worked out for himself that it might be the problem.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:11
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I want drivers to push the limit of the car, not the limit of the steering wheel controlls.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:25
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learnincurve posted:No if it's a safety issue then they can tell him. They called Charlie and asked for permission to tell him about the mode and he said no. Ok, let me rephrase a bit There are plenty of things that will ruin his car but wouldn't count as a safety issue There's no way he should have just ignored all the warning lights
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Jun 20, 2016 18:37
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Bah, can't read in the morning. My point remains, though: If the team wants to make changes to the car, bring it into the pits, like they would do with a mechanical issue.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:38
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DOOP posted:Massa was a good driver until he got a spring lodged in his skull
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Jun 20, 2016 18:42
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On another subject what is up with tires this year? It can't think of a race offhand this season where the team that pits more times for tires has done better or even equal to teams that go with less stops. I can't tell if the tires are either more durable in general, don't fall off a cliff at a certain point anymore, or (alternatively) the pace from new tires disappears quicker than it used to so that everyone is on the same level after a few laps.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:43
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Isn't this the same argument the "HUURRRRRRR make them shift gears again!" crowd makes, but in reverse?  Make the drivers do something for a change!!!! Real Men would have been out there changing the tire themselves all the while going flat at Eau Rouge. This is pointlessly complex, the drivers should just be focusing on driving!!!!If the other driver on the team in an identical car can figure out the problem, then there isn't much of an excuse. wicka posted:Rosberg was helped by the fact that, when he suffered a loss of power, he had only recently switched to the suspect mode – and he worked out for himself that it might be the problem. Lewis is an excellent driver with great racecraft and the best equipment available. Don't hit a loving wall and screw up your whole weekend by starting mid-pack. Start 2nd you dipshit.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:49
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This is where everything being too unclear and technical comes in. They were not warning your D Rates are low and something is about to explode, they were warning your D rates are not operating at the high level they should be and it's making your car 2/10th of a lap slower. If it had been a warning that could have damaged the engine they could have told him how to fix it. That's on Mercedes for not having something very simple like the warnings flashing in different colours. If he had ignored them then he would have been up near Perez and Kimi, and would probably have been looking at 4tth maximum anyway. His car just wasn't that great for the race, and that was his own silly fault for damaging it in Quali.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:50
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Skarsnik posted:Ok, let me rephrase a bit there weren't warning lights. he was in a wrong engine mode that incorrectly determined it was running out of battery power and didn't boost during the entire straight. ImplicitAssembler posted:Bah, can't read in the morning. My point remains, though: If the team wants to make changes to the car, bring it into the pits, like they would do with a mechanical issue. suggesting that the team bring the car into the pits to turn a knob from 3 to 7 is insanity.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:55
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dreesemonkey posted:Isn't this the same argument the "HUURRRRRRR make them shift gears again!" crowd makes, but in reverse? I can see both sides of the argument really. The screens on those cars display less info than my kart does but are attached to a massively more complicated hybrid engine. Anybody with a decent amount of car experience can drive around a petrol engine that has an issue and take a reasonable guess at what the issue is, but given how different these engines run its probably anybody's guess what the issue is unless something pops up on screen specifically outlining how to fix it. On the other hand, its the manufacturer's own fault for adding a million different options instead of simplifying it.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:57
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1500quidporsche posted:I can see both sides of the argument really. The screens on those cars display less info than my kart does but are attached to a massively more complicated hybrid engine. Anybody with a decent amount of car experience can drive around a petrol engine that has an issue and take a reasonable guess at what the issue is, but given how different these engines run its probably anybody's guess what the issue is unless something pops up on screen specifically outlining how to fix it. "just simplify it" isn't how the real world works, unfortunately
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Jun 20, 2016 19:03
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wicka posted:"just simplify it" isn't how the real world works, unfortunately  All of this is completely necessary.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:07
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Reminder that Lewis Hamilton lost a championship because he fiddled with the wrong knob.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:09
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wicka posted:there weren't warning lights. he was in a wrong engine mode that incorrectly determined it was running out of battery power and didn't boost during the entire straight. So all the radio messages about warning lights flashing were made up? 'fricken' warning lights to be precise
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Jun 20, 2016 19:21
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1500quidporsche posted:
I don't see anything too egregious there, if you had a large text box for everything a driver can do in a normal car you'd have a lot of things too
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Jun 20, 2016 19:22
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1500quidporsche posted:
i don't see how this is a response to the fact that you can't say "just simplify it" and expect that to mean anything.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:23
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Skarsnik posted:So all the radio messages about warning lights flashing were made up? i was super hungover tbf so my recollection could be wrong
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Jun 20, 2016 19:30
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Skarsnik posted:So all the radio messages about warning lights flashing were made up? As it has been said, there are warning lights and there are warning lights. This was just warning him that if he picked a different mode he could be going faster, not oh poo poo oh poo poo engine going to explode. He did a nico and panicked, had he chilled out for a few laps and seen he was losing 2/10ths then he could have weighed it up against how much time he was losing by not concentrating on driving, or turned the engine up to compensate. Maybe if he had turned everything up and let the engine get hot then they could have said "Engine temps too high turn 7B to setting 12A" but he simply was not thinking straight.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:34
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wicka posted:i don't see how this is a response to the fact that you can't say "just simplify it" and expect that to mean anything. There's a lot of the stuff on there just controls the same end goal but a little bit differently, I mean you can't just throw your hands up and say "It can't be simplified" either Wicka. I can give a few examples but in general a lot of that stuff on there should be pre set before the race and the driver shouldn't be touching it. You can adjust the fuel rate but then through the MFRS you can adjust the lambda as well, sure they're different things but ultimately I don't think the driver is going to be adjusting both in a racing situation, block one of those off. there's like 4 different ways to adjust the differential, again I'd be curious how much time is being gained by giving the driver that much control over things. An all encompassing switch that changed all these functions at once towards a general condition instead of giving the driver control of every minor aspect of the PU would be a better solution to the complaint of "Things are too complicated for the drivers".
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Jun 20, 2016 19:38
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learnincurve posted:As it has been said, there are warning lights and there are warning lights. This was just warning him that if he picked a different mode he could be going faster, not oh poo poo oh poo poo engine going to explode. He did a nico and panicked, had he chilled out for a few laps and seen he was losing 2/10ths then he could have weighed it up against how much time he was losing by not concentrating on driving, or turned the engine up to compensate. Maybe if he had turned everything up and let the engine get hot then they could have said "Engine temps too high turn 7B to setting 12A" but he simply was not thinking straight. Right, except he's not an engineer and shouldn't be expected to know how serious all the warning lights are. You're just guessing when you say exactly what it was warning him All he needs to know is 'warning light bad' Nico was a mile ahead, he had room to chill out, lewis was in the pack chasing
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Jun 20, 2016 19:41
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1500quidporsche posted:There's a lot of the stuff on there just controls the same end goal but a little bit differently, I mean you can't just throw your hands up and say "It can't be simplified" either Wicka. I can give a few examples but in general a lot of that stuff on there should be pre set before the race and the driver shouldn't be touching it. it's a competition. you'd have to ban certain types of settings, no one is going to make these changes willingly. and if you try to ban them you're just starting yet another era of settings and features being hidden in the software. far and away is the best and simplest solution is to scrap the reactionary radio regulations that have done nothing but make the sport worse.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:42
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wicka posted:it's a competition. you'd have to ban certain types of settings, no one is going to make these changes willingly. and if you try to ban them you're just starting yet another era of settings and features being hidden in the software. far and away is the best and simplest solution is to scrap the reactionary radio regulations that have done nothing but make the sport worse. They have one common ECU specifically to prevent this kind of thing, and I personally believe that the cars would be just as fast if the manufacturers went to a simpler system as it would remove the possibility of things like this sunday occurring. I do think the radio ban missed the target, the complaint always was the engineers were driving the cars. If you ban all telemetry the engineers are blind instead of the drivers, let the drivers ask for help when they want it but they have to talk the engineer through what's going on.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:49
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1500quidporsche posted:There's a lot of the stuff on there just controls the same end goal but a little bit differently, I mean you can't just throw your hands up and say "It can't be simplified" either Wicka. Simplicity is more than "fewer buttons"; I suspect there being multiple buttons for the same feature is a simplification because it will reduce the amount of attention the driver needs to pay for a lot of common changes.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:57
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1500quidporsche posted:They have one common ECU specifically to prevent this kind of thing, and I personally believe that the cars would be just as fast if the manufacturers went to a simpler system as it would remove the possibility of things like this sunday occurring. none of this solves any problem other than perception. how about we instead concede that none of these things negatively impact the sport and just let them keep doing what they were doing.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:58
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wicka posted:none of this solves any problem other than perception. how about we instead concede that none of these things negatively impact the sport and just let them keep doing what they were doing. I'd agree with that. It is an issue of perception.
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Jun 20, 2016 20:01
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Skarsnik posted:Right, except he's not an engineer and shouldn't be expected to know how serious all the warning lights are. You're just guessing when you say exactly what it was warning him There is nothing in the rules that states what colour messages on the dash need to be. Performance issue we can't tell you about amber, issue we can tell you about red. Thinking about it there is no rule that states everything else can't be colour coded either. Message flashes up blue and then purple then it's an issue controlled by dial 4 menu 6.
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Jun 20, 2016 20:06
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Yea it sounds like it was a "you're not using the most efficient mode for ultimate lap times" warning. I doubt there is much you can do to simplify it. It's the pinnacle of motorsport and if you're saying you don't want drivers to be able to change brake bias or diff settings or energy recovery then that just means the teams that allow drivers to do that will have an advantage.
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Jun 20, 2016 20:14
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Double the number of controls on Lewis's wheel; remove the screen to make the room for them.
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Jun 20, 2016 20:35
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El Hefe posted:Reminder that Lewis Hamilton lost a championship because he fiddled with the wrong knob. Norns posted:I want drivers to push the limit of the car, not the limit of the steering wheel controlls.
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Jun 20, 2016 20:39
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