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Crowsbeak posted:Really all people with psychosis has no control at all over their lives? Psychosis is characterized as a break from reality which heavily implies a loss of control. This why, for example, people who committed a crime while psychotic isn't punished.
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Jun 20, 2016 10:12
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SedanChair posted:Who said all? Just admit that there are plenty who don't have enough, and answer the drat question. Well when you say it eliminates free will... I have to compliment you for being much more polite this time around.
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Jun 20, 2016 10:23
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Crowsbeak posted:Well when you say it eliminates free will... I have to compliment you for being much more polite this time around. I wish I could compliment you for actually answering questions.
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Jun 20, 2016 10:42
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This is the worst thread in D&D. My favourite part was when people were arguing that being gay is a sin and then Orlando happened. Any weirdos in here have any moments of clarity around that? E: oh also the guy who got cold-read into believing because a priest knew a young woman had an eating disorder, A+ although I can't tell in this thread who is just quoting from elsewhere
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Jun 20, 2016 12:18
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nopantsjack posted:This is the worst thread in D&D. My favourite part was when people were arguing that being gay is a sin and then Orlando happened. Had a good long cry, talked with my pastor and some church leaders who I respect. We all decided that Islam is a trash religion.
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Jun 20, 2016 15:22
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The Kingfish posted:Had a good long cry, talked with my pastor and some church leaders who I respect. We all decided that Islam is a trash religion. How awkward was it trying not to discuss that the victims were all in hell where they belong?
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Jun 20, 2016 16:03
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Alright this has to stop.Crowsbeak posted:Really all people with psychosis has no control at all over their lives? Stop doing this. I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you think you are actually marshaling a cogent and comprehensive reply but you seem to miss the point literally every time you post. I think you must know drat well that the point of the poster you were responding to was "it is known that certain people are compelled into certain actions some of the time", as a way of proving their concept, not that ALL people with "psychosis" have NO control over their lives EVER. Either answer questions fully, intelligently, and honestly or don't post. And if you are failing to actually respond to people because time and time again you have no answer, maybe that should tell you something. To toss my $0.02 into the free will discussion: first, it is a careless exaggeration to ask if atheists want God to turn everyone into "drones" or if they are asking for God to literally move people's arms and legs for them. There is a yawning chasm between "pure, unrestrained free will" and "being robots". We are already physically restrained in some senses; for instance, we don't have the free will to fly under our own power. The question of why there couldn't be a few more physical restrictions to at least sop up some of the violence in this world is a valid one. So to is the question of why man's evil would cause natural disasters, disease, or pestilence. I think I'll leave it to others to expound further on this. Second, why does having free will necessitate having evil? In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis snidely suggests that some people pretend to be able to imagine a world with free will but no evil, though he cannot. But what will Heaven be like? If we have free will in Heaven, does that mean there will be evil, that there will be sin? Then what exactly is different between Heaven and here? And if we don't have free will, won't we be precisely those praise-drones some of you keep harping on about? Doesn't it bother you that for eternity - most of what you will ever be - you will just be a mindless machine worshiping at God's feet? Plus, I thought the idea was that God gave us free will because that's what gave our love and worship of him potency - we chose to do it. If we will have no free will in the hereafter, clearly he doesn't much care if our adulation is coerced.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:00
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The Kingfish posted:Had a good long cry, talked with my pastor and some church leaders who I respect. We all decided that Islam is a trash religion. Uh, Islam had basically nothing to do with Orlando, despite initial reports.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:01
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urseus posted:People should want to hope that God doesn't exist. The alternative, that he's there and letting some of this bad stuff go on even if for some grand plan is horrifying. This sort of ties into the topic of free will. My main issue with the idea that God created humans with free well is the following: If God is omniscient, then he knows everything that will happen in the future. This means that the instant he created humans, he created them in such a way that he knew most would not end up believing in him. It's sort of like dropping a ball on a steep incline and then saying "hey, I wasn't touching it when it hit the bottom, so clearly I wasn't directly responsible for the outcome." If you are omniscient then you are effectively controlling the outcome through the properties you give your creations, in the same way as someone would be ensuring a ball reached the bottom of an incline by making it round. I just don't see how free will can be consistent with the idea that God is omniscient. How can God fault people if he created humans with the knowledge that most would go astray? If you remove omniscience there isn't the same contradiction, so my issue is only with the combination of beliefs that both God is omniscient and free will exists. edit: The idea that Jesus had to show up later to fix things just makes this combination of ideas even more bizarre. Crowsbeak posted:You know the argument that they have no compulsion could be used to suggest we shouldn't be angry when they murder right? This is only the case if you believe in an omniscient God; if you do, then yeah it IS kinda true that you can't blame people for doing bad things (or at least the blame should fall equally on God). If God is omniscient, he can't absolve himself of guilt in this situation. My personal feeling is that while free will is essentially an illusion, it's still useful for people to react poorly to people who do bad things, since it will help to stop them from doing those things. So even if people only do bad things due to a complex combination of their upbringing, genetics, etc, it is still useful to punish them. The only argument I can possibly come up with to explain this whole contradiction is that it simply isn't possible for God to have created humans who both have the capacity for free will and who won't cause massive amounts of suffering (sort of like how it isn't possibly to create a machine that outputs more energy than it takes in). But this is basically admitting that God is limited in his power. vvvvv This sort of attitude is why I generally don't like participating in discussions like this. To be 100% honest, many of the key arguments that stereotypical "internet atheists" make are actually entirely correct, but it's unfortunately the case that most of the atheists who actively argue with religious people have toxic personalities. It's a situation where there are a bunch of atheists and the only ones you generally hear from are the ones who have a bone to pick with religious people for whatever reason (usually either because they grew up in a religious household or they're angsty teenagers who like to argue). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 18:22
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I love the atheists accusing others of being deliberately obtuse. Also once again no one can ever be "actively malicious". I swear you all must be the ones living in a fantasy land.
Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 18:32
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Second, why does having free will necessitate having evil? In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis snidely suggests that some people pretend to be able to imagine a world with free will but no evil, though he cannot. But what will Heaven be like? If we have free will in Heaven, does that mean there will be evil, that there will be sin? Then what exactly is different between Heaven and here? And if we don't have free will, won't we be precisely those praise-drones some of you keep harping on about? Doesn't it bother you that for eternity - most of what you will ever be - you will just be a mindless machine worshiping at God's feet? Plus, I thought the idea was that God gave us free will because that's what gave our love and worship of him potency - we chose to do it. If we will have no free will in the hereafter, clearly he doesn't much care if our adulation is coerced. There was a different thread in which this came up and yeah, the idea that I will somehow suddenly decide praising God forever in heaven is the thing to do after I die is horrifying. And loving boring. I hope there is existence after death, if only so I can find out answers to questions, fly around space as a ghost, annoying some starship crew for approximately 44 minutes, and hope no space aliens eat ghosts. Crowsbeak posted:I love the atheists accusing others of being deliberately obtuse. Also once again no one can ever be "actively malicious". I swear you all must be the ones living in a fantasy land. Answer the question in full, please. Edit: No one said the thing you put in quotation marks.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:36
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Rhjamiz posted:There was a different thread in which this came up and yeah, the idea that I will somehow suddenly decide praising God forever in heaven is the thing to do after I die is horrifying. And loving boring. I hope there is existence after death, if only so I can find out answers to questions, fly around space as a ghost, annoying some starship crew for approximately 44 minutes, and hope no space aliens eat ghosts. Well someone said God can't create people who can cause suffering, but free will can cause that as any choice can be made with free will.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:40
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Crowsbeak posted:Well someone said God can't create people who can cause suffering, but free will can cause that as any choice can be made with free will. ... What? I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. How does this address instances of psychosis or compulsion, whereby some (not literally all or even most) people are made to commit horrible acts against their will?
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Jun 20, 2016 18:44
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Crowsbeak posted:Also once again no one can ever be "actively malicious". Why can't they? Crowsbeak posted:Well someone said God can't create people who can cause suffering, but free will can cause that as any choice can be made with free will. So I can use my free will to choose not to be affected by gravity, thus attaining the power of levitation? Can I also freely choose to become immune to diseases and aging as well? Edit: To try and (possibly futilely) get you to argue in good faith, to be clear you need to be clear on what you believe the limits of free will are and why you believe that, because simply saying "because free will" isn't a valid argument if nobody knows what you even mean by it. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 18:49
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Ah good to see we now have the full measure of rear end in a top hat atheists here. I was skeptical of this thread from the beginning because I knew it would just turn into a atheist. "Don't you know you're just like the mentally ill" atheists. I mean I get it you're all still mad because mommy made you go to church when your twelve but grow up people. I also like how I have now gotten a full bingo card.Rhjamiz posted:... What? I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. How does this address instances of psychosis or compulsion, whereby some (not literally all or even most) people are made to commit horrible acts against their will? You really think the majority of people who hurt others for some short term gain are doing it because they cannot help it? Who What Now posted:
Being that none of you have ever argued in good faith, in any of these threads I being a flawed person decided to return the favor. Sorry if you can't deal.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:03
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Crowsbeak posted:You really think the majority of people who hurt others for some short term gain are doing it because they cannot help it? Rhjamiz posted:(not literally all or even most) Please address the question. I have been arguing in good faith this entire time.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:08
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Rhjamiz posted:Please address the question. I suspect most people "compelled" could deal. Also when an atheist asks why evil exists if there is free will, and why doesn't God correct it or not let it happen, that by itself is not free will, as that suggests someone being actively prevented from doing something. Its like putting a shock collar on a cat for when they knock over a plant. That is enslavement.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:15
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Crowsbeak posted:I suspect most people "compelled" could deal. Also when an atheist asks why evil exists if there is free will, and why doesn't God correct it or not let it happen, that by itself is not free will, as that suggests someone being actively prevented from doing something. Its like putting a shock collar on a cat for when they knock over a plant. That is enslavement. I don't care if "most" could deal. That is not the point. Your position is that evil is the result of free will. I am asking you to then reconcile why God would create these non-zero instances where it clearly is not (psychosis, disease, famine, natural disasters, etc). Whether or not free will without evil is possible or whether or not it would be slavery is irrelevant.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:21
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Crowsbeak posted:Being that none of you have ever argued in good faith, in any of these threads I being a flawed person decided to return the favor. Sorry if you can't deal. The small chide notwithstanding, where have I not argued in good faith in this thread specifically?
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Jun 20, 2016 19:23
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Who What Now posted:The small chide notwithstanding, where have I not argued in good faith in this thread specifically? Yeah I think you know very well that you do not actually argue in good faith in these threads. Rhjamiz posted:I don't care if "most" could deal. That is not the point. Your position is that evil is the result of free will. I am asking you to then reconcile why God would create these non-zero instances where it clearly is not (psychosis, disease, famine, natural disasters, etc). Whether or not free will without evil is possible or whether or not it would be slavery is irrelevant. Actually it does, as slavery would be worse then any evil committed. Also I do not doubt that those who commit evil can either in this life or the next see the light. As even when time ends God will let all even the farthest of the fallen into the new creation.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:37
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Crowsbeak posted:Actually it does, as slavery would be worse then any evil committed. Also I do not doubt that those who commit evil can either in this life or the next see the light. As even when time ends God will let all even the farthest of the fallen into the new creation. This is not an answer to the question I have asked you. Rhjamiz posted:Your position is that evil is the result of free will. I am asking you to then reconcile why God would create these non-zero instances where it clearly is not (psychosis, disease, famine, natural disasters, etc)
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Jun 20, 2016 19:42
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Crowsbeak posted:I suspect most people "compelled" could deal. Also when an atheist asks why evil exists if there is free will, and why doesn't God correct it or not let it happen, that by itself is not free will, as that suggests someone being actively prevented from doing something. Its like putting a shock collar on a cat for when they knock over a plant. That is enslavement. Crow, what about my Heaven example?
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Jun 20, 2016 19:45
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Crowsbeak posted:I suspect most people "compelled" could deal.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:46
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I think you know very well that you do not actually argue in good faith in these threads. I'm making an effort to in this thread. I'm asking you to set aside any childish grudges you might have and meet me halfway here. I'll ask again, how do you define the concept of "free will"? quote:Actually it does, as slavery would be worse then any evil committed. Then why was it condoned by God?
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Jun 20, 2016 19:48
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Alhazred posted:Lets say that most people that are experiencing a psychotic break would be able to be in control of their actions. That still doesn't explain why God would create or let a psychosis happen that would rob people of control over their actions if he's so concerned about free will. It's all part of his ~mysterious plan~
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Jun 20, 2016 20:52
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FilthIncarnate posted:I had, for lack of a better term, a religious experience.
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Jun 20, 2016 22:21
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Crow, what about my Heaven example? If you truly know the presence of God as all who enter Heaven will by God s litteral presense, you will of course not commit evil. Who What Now posted:
God commanded you mess with someones brain so it would be impossible for them to ever think some actions?
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Jun 20, 2016 22:28
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Crowsbeak posted:If you truly know the presence of God as all who enter Heaven will by God s litteral presense, you will of course not commit evil. So people are unable to commit evil? How is this not exactly like what you're saying is slavery? quote:God commanded you mess with someones brain so it would be impossible for them to ever think some actions? Not as such, but he did allow for actual, you know, chattel slavery of non-Jews. He did personally steal the free will of the pharaoh to be force him to stop Moses from leaving Egypt, though.
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Jun 20, 2016 23:28
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Who What Now posted:Not as such, but he did allow for actual, you know, chattel slavery of non-Jews. He did personally steal the free will of the pharaoh to be force him to stop Moses from leaving Egypt, though. Yeah the poo poo God did to the Pharaoh with Moses was super hosed up. Forcing him to be an rear end in a top hat just to teach Egypt some kind of lesson.
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Jun 20, 2016 23:36
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Who What Now posted:So people are unable to commit evil? How is this not exactly like what you're saying is slavery? Yeah I see you seem to think I am a biblical literalist. Nice attempt at a strawman. Also people are unable to commit evil when they truly know God. Most will probably not in this lifetime achieve that.
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Jun 20, 2016 23:59
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I see you seem to think I am a biblical literalist. Nice attempt at a strawman. Also people are unable to commit evil when they truly know God. Most will probably not in this lifetime achieve that. I noticed you skipped answering my question.
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Jun 21, 2016 00:03
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I believe in a thing called love. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWdLt3Afjrg
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Jun 21, 2016 00:12
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Crowsbeak, could you please answer Rhjamiz's question?
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Jun 21, 2016 01:06
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I see you seem to think I am a biblical literalist. I can't know what you are if you won't tell me, so the only recourse I have is to turn towards the bible, which a majority of Christians believe gives at least a reasonably accurate depiction of god's character. So, if God can't take away our free will, are there any limits on our free will? If so, what are they? quote:Also people are unable to commit evil when they truly know God. Most will probably not in this lifetime achieve that. Unable in what sense? In the sense that it's literally impossible even if they try, or that they won't choose to? In either case how is this significantly different than God mind controlling us by virtue of having knowledge of him?
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Jun 21, 2016 01:32
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technotronic posted:It's more like a meditation that tunes me in to things that are really important. It's better to go to bed thinking about my parents or a sick friend or my long term goals, than being upset about an email from work or that I lost 4 DOTA games in a row. I think this is a really smart practice, and I'm going to integrate it. Thanks.
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Jun 21, 2016 01:42
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Crowsbeak posted:I suspect most people "compelled" could deal. Also when an atheist asks why evil exists if there is free will, and why doesn't God correct it or not let it happen, that by itself is not free will, as that suggests someone being actively prevented from doing something. Its like putting a shock collar on a cat for when they knock over a plant. That is enslavement. The problem with your analogy is that God, in this situation, created humans. So it's like humans designing a cat in such a way that the cat knocks over plants and then punishing the cat for doing so. In this case the blame ultimately falls with the creator of the cat. The only possible way to avoid this contradiction is to claim that it's simply impossible for humans to have been created in a way that they don't cause suffering, but that's basically admitting a limitation on the part of God.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:01
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mystes posted:Crowsbeak, could you please answer Rhjamiz's question? I did. You guys don't like it. Who What Now posted:I can't know what you are if you won't tell me, so the only recourse I have is to turn towards the bible, which a majority of Christians believe gives at least a reasonably accurate depiction of god's character. So, if God can't take away our free will, are there any limits on our free will? If so, what are they? In the sense that most choose to not live to be Godly. Ytlaya posted:The problem with your analogy is that God, in this situation, created humans. So it's like humans designing a cat in such a way that the cat knocks over plants and then punishing the cat for doing so. In this case the blame ultimately falls with the creator of the cat.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:09
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Crowsbeak posted:In the sense that most choose to not live to be Godly. That doesn't tell me why people who do choose to be Godly can't or won't commit evil. It also doesn't tell me how you define what you mean when you say "free will" and what limits it does or doesn't have.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:19
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Who What Now posted:That doesn't tell me why people who do choose to be Godly can't or won't commit evil. It also doesn't tell me how you define what you mean when you say "free will" and what limits it does or doesn't have. Because to be Godly is to choose to not commit violence, to choose to completely dedicate your life to others.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:20
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Crowsbeak posted:I did. You guys don't like it.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:30
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