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SolidSnakesBandana posted:What turned me off about Quake was a rather lackluster double shotgun. Shambles take like 4 shots, and the sound effect is weak as heck. Quake 2 would have a much better one, although with an equally crappy sound effect Speaking of the double shotgun, the pump action shotgun in Brutal Doom is objectively better than the double shotgun and for some reason that bugs me
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Jun 23, 2016 17:07
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I feel people ITT have a bit too rose-tinted of glasses for Doom. I love Doom and always have since its release, but it hasn't really aged as well as people think it has. I think because Doom came first, it made a bigger impact, so people have more nostalgia for it. Comparatively I've only been playing Quake for a few years really, it released when I started my dabble with console gaming so I missed its initial wave. I feel Quake has aged better though, from the level design to the atmosphere to even the weapons, arguably barring the SSG. I played through episode 2 last night and it's still the most fun I've had with a singleplayer FPS. Just my two cents on this "Quake is great, but..." bullshit happening on Quake's birthday.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:09
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my bony fealty posted:Only criticism is Fun fact: In order to really make sure my map is possible to beat, most of my playtesting involves me getting every kill possible without getting any of the secrets. You have no idea how tough that final fight is until you've done it with just the shotgun, chaingun, BFG, and nowhere near enough cells. Alternatively, there's the version I accidentally uploaded last week that had you at pistol start in that arena.:oops:
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Jun 23, 2016 17:14
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Jehde posted:I feel people ITT have a bit too rose-tinted of glasses for Doom. I love Doom and always have since its release, but it hasn't really aged as well as people think it has. I think because Doom came first, it made a bigger impact, so people have more nostalgia for it. Comparatively I've only been playing Quake for a few years really, it released when I started my dabble with console gaming so I missed its initial wave. I feel Quake has aged better though, from the level design to the atmosphere to even the weapons, arguably barring the SSG. I played through episode 2 last night and it's still the most fun I've had with a singleplayer FPS. I play Doom literally every single day of my life; there's no nostalgia here. Quake is cool and interesting in its own right but gently caress this "rose-tinted glasses" poo poo
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Jun 23, 2016 17:17
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It depends a lot on what you value most in an FPS. Weapon feel, the variety of opponents, how combat setups are choreographed, the aesthetic and sense of place, clarity/readability, the shape and topology of the levels, etc. Quake and Doom have some different strengths. Personally I have the non-controversial opinion that there's a lot about the combat in singleplayer Quake that is a step back from the combat in Doom. But almost everything about exploring and just being in the environments is a step up. I still go on Doom binges occasionally but overall I put more time into Quake just because it pushes more of my buttons.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:21
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Jehde posted:I feel people ITT have a bit too rose-tinted of glasses for Doom. I love Doom and always have since its release, but it hasn't really aged as well as people think it has. I think because Doom came first, it made a bigger impact, so people have more nostalgia for it. No small portion of the last dozen or so pages has been people (including myself) making GBS threads on Doom/Doom 2's later levels and the Sandy Petersen Method of Level Design, so I disagree.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:28
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I don't think people would love Doom as much if there weren't hundreds of thousands of mods to try. If the game was limited to the IWAD content and nothing else, nobody would care about it twenty years after.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:41
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Jehde posted:I feel people ITT have a bit too rose-tinted of glasses for Doom. I love Doom and always have since its release, but it hasn't really aged as well as people think it has. I think because Doom came first, it made a bigger impact, so people have more nostalgia for it. Comparatively I've only been playing Quake for a few years really, it released when I started my dabble with console gaming so I missed its initial wave. I feel Quake has aged better though, from the level design to the atmosphere to even the weapons, arguably barring the SSG. I played through episode 2 last night and it's still the most fun I've had with a singleplayer FPS. They're both incredible games, and I'd say they're almost equal, just for different reasons. Doom is not exactly a looker nowadays, but the gameplay's so incredibly tight and fine-tuned that it's still unbelievably playable. Quake, meanwhile, looks a good bit better and has some really nifty architecture in it, but about half the enemies are horrible assholes to actually fight, the SSG is kinda eh, and some of the levels are really confusing.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:48
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haveblue posted:The satisfaction of learning enough QuakeC that the grenade launcher now shoots exploding zombies in the first place. Did ever QuakeC become a big thing? Iirc Carmack quickly lost interest in developing and documenting it.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:49
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Probably true because without the continued mod support we'd be stuck at 1990's resolution and gameplay that doesn't allow you to look up or down or jump or all kinds of stuff. Honestly I think Doom still scratches a certain itch that other shooters don't (for me) because for some reason the death animations of sprite characters and all is just somehow more satisfying than 3D ragdoll physics etc. Something about blasting an imp with a shotgun at close range and sending it flying backwards just feels more solid, I dunno. It entertains me.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:49
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laserghost posted:Did ever QuakeC become a big thing? Iirc Carmack quickly lost interest in developing and documenting it. No, subsequent Carmack engines let you link DLLs for game logic and that quickly superseded it. Interpretation didn't make a comeback until Unreal made it their goal to support every platform under the sun. Anyone else remember Artifact Quake? It was a DM mod that placed pickup runes that made all kinds of special powers/stupid bullshit happen to or around you. Immune to lava. Random teleporting. A pet shambler that follows you around and attacks people. Ammo regen. Become radioactive and emit AOE damage. Explode on death. Your model turns into Shub-Niggurath. The Rune of Uncontrollable Jumping which was exactly what it sounds like 
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Jun 23, 2016 17:56
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QuakeC still lives on as the language used to set up Source Engine models for compiling... but not for much longer. Source 2 finally puts it to rest in a dumpster behind a medical clinic, in favor of such revolutionary ideas as "a UI".
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Jun 23, 2016 18:00
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Cat Mattress posted:I don't think people would love Doom as much if there weren't hundreds of thousands of mods to try. If the game was limited to the IWAD content and nothing else, nobody would care about it twenty years after.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:06
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Honestly, I think Doom is pretty dull. Enemies, from their speed to their projectiles, are way too slow. They only serve as a threat when you pack them in tight spaces; put them in a room that isn't tight as a virgin rear end in a top hat, and you can run circles around them as they in-fight each other to death. The only actually fast thing is your running speed. The last time I played Doom was Doom the way iD did it back on Doom's 21st birthday, and it was so boring and predictable that I quit around E1M3. Doom gives you a good illusion of being a speedy game because of your jacked run speed, but in reality it's pretty slow. Quake 1's combat is much more intense. Quake guy is a little bit slower, but enemies have better reaction times and overall feel faster in firing speed and projectile speed than enemies in Doom. Enemies like Fiends, Vores, keeping a Knight rush under control, and an Ogre bombardment are so much more fun after going through a fight with another group of slow as molasses Hell Knights with some equally-slow Imps taking potshots at you.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:16
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Jehde posted:I feel people ITT have a bit too rose-tinted of glasses for Doom. I love Doom and always have since its release, but it hasn't really aged as well as people think it has. I think because Doom came first, it made a bigger impact, so people have more nostalgia for it. Comparatively I've only been playing Quake for a few years really, it released when I started my dabble with console gaming so I missed its initial wave. I feel Quake has aged better though, from the level design to the atmosphere to even the weapons, arguably barring the SSG. I played through episode 2 last night and it's still the most fun I've had with a singleplayer FPS. I gather that most people who enjoy Doom today as much as they did in the 90s (myself included) are playing with a source port and not on the stock levels. In that sense, Doom has held up incredibly well; its core gameplay is solid enough that new mapsets utilizing only the base monster and weapon resources are still some of the best FPS experiences around. I'm not really "nostalgic" for Doom because the Doom I'm playing today is not the same Doom I played in 1995. There's obviously speedrunners and purists who won't play with any of the modern conveniences, but I can't imagine playing Doom today without mouselook at high res, even if it does ruin some of the challenge. Most of that also applies to Quake, of course. Point being, comparing the base Quake and Doom games in 2016 is sort of meaningless since the way people play both games has changed so much. If someone enjoys the Doom style of gameplay more than Quake, or vice versa, that's just fine because they're different games that are great for different reasons. Cat Mattress posted:I don't think people would love Doom as much if there weren't hundreds of thousands of mods to try. If the game was limited to the IWAD content and nothing else, nobody would care about it twenty years after. Pretty much this. I don't enjoy playing Ancient Aliens because of nostalgia, but because skillsaw & co. took Doom's toolbox and made something new and amazing with it. At the end of the day Doom and Quake are both incredible games and here's hoping that the communities for both games will keep churning out great stuff for a long time. closeted republican posted:Honestly, I think Doom is pretty dull. Enemies, from their speed to their projectiles, are way too slow. They only serve as a threat when you pack them in tight spaces; put them in a room that isn't tight as a virgin rear end in a top hat, and you can run circles around them as they in-fight each other to death. The only actually fast thing is your running speed. The last time I played Doom was Doom the way iD did it back on Doom's 21st birthday, and it was so boring and predictable that I quit around E1M3. Doom gives you a good illusion of being a speedy game because of your jacked run speed, but in reality it's pretty slow. I don't agree with this though - there's plenty of relatively large open levels that are difficult due to their design. Ancient Aliens' first map is a good example; you can't just shoot the Cyberdemon until it dies so you have to navigate around it as a constant environmental threat. The speediness of Doom is entirely dependent on the map you're playing; sometimes it's not possible to just run around in circles because there's way too much poo poo trying to kill you and not enough resources to take them all out. my bony fealty fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 18:26
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Doom was always terrible and that's why I keep trying to shove more and more Duke 3D poo poo into Samsara. https://my.mixtape.moe/klxgfv.webm
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Jun 23, 2016 18:29
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Yeah, any conversation about how either game is still great to play in 2016 has to implicitly include the benefits of the source ports, people figuring out how to make prettier and prettier maps, etc. I would say that Quake has benefited about as well as Doom in that regard. It probably can't compete in terms of sheer quantity of modern maps, but I'd say its highs are equally as high as Doom. For me personally, I've just always felt Quake's gameplay a little bit more annoying than Doom. I think it probably has to do with how individual monsters are made more of a threat; closeted republican has a pretty good description of why that is, but the problem for me is that I don't necessarily want every monster encounter to feel like a tense boss fight.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:31
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closeted republican posted:Quake 1's combat is much more intense. Quake guy is a little bit slower, but enemies have better reaction times and overall feel faster in firing speed and projectile speed than enemies in Doom. Enemies like Fiends, Vores, keeping a Knight rush under control, and an Ogre bombardment are so much more fun after going through a fight with another group of slow as molasses Hell Knights with some equally-slow Imps taking potshots at you. This is something I noticed playing last night. Quake's level design tends to be a bit more cramped as well, so there's less kiting and more jumping around a room dodging frantically in every direction, trying to make the most of what limited space you have. I had a moment where I was at a sliver of health duking out with a hell knight and I managed to instinctively jump over his fireball volley at a fairly close range, it felt amazing to pull off. I don't really get that sort of frantic action satisfaction with Doom. Jia posted:I play Doom literally every single day of my life; there's no nostalgia here. I used to do this too. It was because of nostalgia.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:33
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Speaking of parts of Doom that suck...I thought Thy Flesh Consumed was supposed to be a good episode? I'm finally biting the bullet and running through it fully for the first time and the first three levels (Hell Beneath, Perfect Hatred, Fear and the little touch of E4M3 I had to clear before I had a decent savepoint to call it for the night) have left me with a bad taste in my mouth. 'Beat five hellknights in a map with poo poo-all for ammo' is not my idea of a good time, and neither is getting shot at from literally the word go on Fear and E4M3. Does it get any better from here? I'm gonna finish it anyway, but it'd be nice to know if I still have to keep an eye out for bullshit gotchas or not. This crap has been much worse than just about any Doom 2 level except The Chasm. EDIT: Just to clarify, Fear was significantly better than Perfect Hatred, which itself was wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better than Hell Beneath. But even then it still had stuff that made me think it wasn't meant to be a challenging level but a spiteful one. Transient People fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 18:42
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The cool thing to me is that Quake's distinct gameplay style is as much a result of technology limitations than anything else - you couldn't have 20 polygonal enemies jumping at you at once in 1996, so instead you get a couple of tougher monsters. It's a totally different kind of satisfaction to mow down 30 imps than it is to take out a shambler and Quake is so well-designed that it really succeeds in making every encounter feel dangerous. What I wouldn't give a modern shooter that understands enemy variety and use as well as Doom and Quake did. I have no desire to ever play Far Cry 3 again, for example, because it's way less fun when the variation comes from "should I snipe grunt or should I shotgun rush grunt" rather than the enemies and level design providing different experiences.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:46
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Doom was crazy awesome and new. Quake was crazy awesome and unfortunately was a followup of Doom. I remember Quake more, because I really dug the real-3d level design and poo poo. It opened a whole new craziness for making levels, so it was fun for me. However, dealing wish brushes and poo poo was much harder than just 2d-sectors, so there was a higher barrier of entry for level makers, which is why I think Doom has endured longer.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:47
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Transient People posted:Speaking of parts of Doom that suck...I thought Thy Flesh Consumed was supposed to be a good episode? I'm finally biting the bullet and running through it fully for the first time and the first three levels (Hell Beneath, Perfect Hatred, Fear and the little touch of E4M3 I had to clear before I had a decent savepoint to call it for the night) have left me with a bad taste in my mouth. 'Beat five hellknights in a map with poo poo-all for ammo' is not my idea of a good time, and neither is getting shot at from literally the word go on Fear and E4M3. Does it get any better from here? I'm gonna finish it anyway, but it'd be nice to know if I still have to keep an eye out for bullshit gotchas or not. This crap has been much worse than just about any Doom 2 level except The Chasm.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:49
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Transient People posted:Speaking of parts of Doom that suck...I thought Thy Flesh Consumed was supposed to be a good episode? I'm finally biting the bullet and running through it fully for the first time and the first three levels (Hell Beneath, Perfect Hatred, Fear and the little touch of E4M3 I had to clear before I had a decent savepoint to call it for the night) have left me with a bad taste in my mouth. 'Beat five hellknights in a map with poo poo-all for ammo' is not my idea of a good time, and neither is getting shot at from literally the word go on Fear and E4M3. Does it get any better from here? I'm gonna finish it anyway, but it'd be nice to know if I still have to keep an eye out for bullshit gotchas or not. This crap has been much worse than just about any Doom 2 level except The Chasm. Thy Flesh Consumed is terrible. You're also not a True Doom Murderhead unless you can beat it on UV. Have fun.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:51
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Jehde posted:This is something I noticed playing last night. Quake's level design tends to be a bit more cramped as well, so there's less kiting and more jumping around a room dodging frantically in every direction, trying to make the most of what limited space you have. I had a moment where I was at a sliver of health duking out with a hell knight and I managed to instinctively jump over his fireball volley at a fairly close range, it felt amazing to pull off. I don't really get that sort of frantic action satisfaction with Doom. If you want something tense, try circle-strafing to defeat a Vore while it's balls is still following you. poo poo is tense and fun as gently caress because one mistake will gently caress you up, but if you kill it, you have some balls around you that you can lead to any nearby enemies.  It's my preferred way to kill Vores now. You don't break the combat rhythm by retreating and it makes combat more intense.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:52
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I too enjoy leading someone else's balls into the gaping maws of horrible monsters.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:52
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Honestly despite how closely they're related (by time and creative team) I really see Doom and Quake as being in two different subgenres. If Doom is a top-down shooter, Quake is a flight simulator. That wasn't necessarily the intention, but it's how they look in hindsight.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:56
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Sir Lemming posted:Quake is a flight simulator. Not seeing this, care to elaborate? Also funny to note that the engine development for Doom started as a racing game, and Quake started as an RPG game.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:58
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I feel pretty confident in saying, as someone who was only able to play shooters late in high school, that Doom and Quake are tops. I need to start the Quake Mission Packs, I picked them up in the GOG sale. Thy Flesh Consumed has some good maps. E4M1 and E4M2 are not them.
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Jun 23, 2016 18:58
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catlord posted:I feel pretty confident in saying, as someone who was only able to play shooters late in high school, that Doom and Quake are tops. I need to start the Quake Mission Packs, I picked them up in the GOG sale. Dissolution of Eternity is... it's not bad, per-se, but compared to Scourge (and parts of the original game) it pales in comparison.
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Jun 23, 2016 19:00
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The Kins posted:Episode 4 was produced after Doom 2, and E4M2 was built in a single six hour session. It's fair to say that it's a bit of a difficulty jump over the rest of the original series. Yeah. Thy Flesh Consumed was made by very talented people who just so happen to hate your guts and want you to suffer. catlord posted:Thy Flesh Consumed has some good maps. E4M1 and E4M2 are not them. Speedrunning Thy Flesh Consumed has given me a newfound appreciation for E4M2. It's a really hectic and fun map when you're trying to go fast.
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Jun 23, 2016 19:09
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Jehde posted:I used to do this too. It was because of nostalgia. Except I've been doing it for the last twelve-ish years. I don't think it still counts as nostalgia when it's something you've been actively engaged in constantly for over a decade; I don't keep loading up new levels and poo poo all the time because I remember how much fun I had in 1993 when it came out, I load it up every day because it's still an immensely fun and satisfying game to play. I don't really give a poo poo about the doom v quake debate, I just take issue with the idea that people still only play Doom out of "nostalgia"
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Jun 23, 2016 19:32
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Doom and Quake are both amazing, just different types of amazing. Doom's faster-paced, with a lot more emphasis on dodging crossfire from larger numbers of weaker enemies, while Quake's more focused on stronger enemies in fewer numbers interspersed with traps baked into the level design. Doom has the better weapon and monster variety, but Quake has the more-interesting level design, thanks to the addition of a proper third dimension, some rudimentary scripting and some really nice lighting. There's some times I wish I could mix-and-match both - sometimes I really want to place an Ogre or a Fiend in a Doom map, and sometimes I wish I was fighting a Mancubus or Archvile in Quake. Ah, well.
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Jun 23, 2016 19:50
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I think Doom had better staying power than quake for the simple reason that it's a lot easier to mod than a 3d game.
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Jun 23, 2016 19:50
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Since there's so much mapping talk lately, someone made a tool that converts .obj files to Quake .maps. http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61207 (look for the updated version) In other words you can now build your world geometry in any 3d editor, and then export it to for example Trenchbroom. There's still tons of quirks but once you got it figured out fairly complex stuff like this (ignore how it's all wonky):  can be made in minutes. You also have the benefit of being able to scale it and transform it any way you want. The tool has three modes, the first one where it exports the objects in the obj file as separate brushes is the important part. It can also break arbitrary shapes into rings of brushes which comes with the usual limitations of using brushes for detailed objects. In Trenchbroom you have to snap the verts to grid otherwise the bsp tool will vomit errors on anything complex even when it's airtight. The converter can automatically copy the brush data to clipboard so you can just paste it into an editor, assembling your map room by room. The main limitation is that textures of course have to be set manually. There is also an addon for Blender that exports Q3 map files, and those can be converted to any format, but I found that it mangles geometry even if it's all perfectly aligned.
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Jun 23, 2016 19:54
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It'll be after the heat death of the universe and I will be part of the collective conciousness of future un-humanity floating in the aether between physical dimensions and I'm STILL going to be calling out to the other parts of the universal hive mind "Yo you play that new Dooms wad"
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Jun 23, 2016 20:03
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Regarding whether playing Doom is nostalgia or genuine genius on the game's part (not that these are mutually exclusive, but figuring out what the proportion of influence is): Some Doom maps/mapping projects are clearly trading on nostalgia. E.g., the various "the way id did"s. On the other hand, it's hard for me to buy the argument that I'm playing something like Ancient Aliens or ZDCMP2 because of nostalgia, because those are very clearly 2010s versions of the Doom aesthetic and gameplay, not 1990s, so why would I be playing them out of nostalgia for the 90s? Much more likely that the basic design elements (movement, weapons, monster appearances and behavior, the techno-hellish world made possible by the textures) are just legitimately more appealing to me than 90% of the AAA games being expelled from the industry's collective sphincter in 2016.
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Jun 23, 2016 20:51
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Doom owns, Quake owns, iD owns. Hail Satan  I was just thinking. Doom/Doom2 has DoomRPG and Doom 3 had DungeonDoom. Was there ever a mod that gave Quake RPG elements?
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Jun 23, 2016 23:15
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Map 33 in Doom 2 Way Id Did is kinda lovely.  Why yes I wanna fight what was it...6 Pain Elementals and 2 Revenants in a tight room where they can get behind me and I have not much ammo to work with. Ah well my fault for going at it after not playing Doom seriously in a long time.
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Jun 24, 2016 01:02
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Zeratanis posted:Map 33 in Doom 2 Way Id Did is kinda lovely. You should play alien vendetta if you want really lovely maps, friend. 6 cyberdemons in the equivalent of a broom closet The horror...
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Jun 24, 2016 01:08
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Klaus88 posted:You should play alien vendetta if you want really lovely maps, friend. On my list to play! After this, TNT, 3 Plutonias, and 2 Hell Revealeds!  e; Beat that map~ Decided gently caress trying to kill everything. Found a BFG and just rushed through the rest cause holy crap that map sucked. Zeratanis fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 24, 2016 01:25
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