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I mean, it's not a coincidence that we were a Grand Duchy under the old Putins instead of being outright annexed.
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Jun 23, 2016 13:59
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I've literally never seen Ruotsi-Suomi in print anywhere except in Kanava* and the letters column in Suomen Kuvalehti. *) Is Kanava still published? Back in the nineties it was 100% opinion pieces about how great Kekkonen was, and dying pundits arguing about stuff that ceased to be relevant in the 1970s.
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Jun 23, 2016 14:11
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Darkest Auer posted:Admittedly I've read mostly sort-of-nationalist authors, but the picture I've gotten is that while everyone acknowledged Stockholm and the King as being the rulers, Finland always had its own strong identity and sense of separateness much stronger than other regions on the Swedish "mainland". This is utter horseshit. The "Finnish" identity was created out of whole cloth during the 19th century. Hell, there wasn't even a proper Swedish national identity before the 19th century. Every single dinky-rear end province in the kingdom thought that they were separate special snowflakes before the state started promoting nationalism. Darkest Auer posted:I mean, it's not a coincidence that we were a Grand Duchy under the old Putins instead of being outright annexed. We were a nominally separate Grand Duchy because Alex I was going through a liberal phase at the time and not due to any inherent finnishness.
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Jun 23, 2016 14:13
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Cerebral Bore posted:This is utter horseshit. The "Finnish" identity was created out of whole cloth during the 19th century. Hell, there wasn't even a proper Swedish national identity before the 19th century. Every single dinky-rear end province in the kingdom thought that they were separate special snowflakes before the state started promoting nationalism. i thought that it was more about pacifying finland faster and because our administrative system meant that tax collecting etc. was more efficient than in the rest of the russia
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Jun 23, 2016 14:17
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No voi vittu nyt taas. Suomalaisilla on mm. ihan oma kieli joka ei ole edes millään tavalla sukua ruotsille jos ei nomaaleja lainasanoja lasketa. Eikä sitä mytologiaakaan polkastu ihan tyhjästä 1800-luvulla.
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Jun 23, 2016 14:21
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Hogge Wild posted:i thought that it was more about pacifying finland faster and because our administrative system meant that tax collecting etc. was more efficient than in the rest of the russia Eihän nyt mikään tehokkuusargumentti ikinä ole estänyt ryssää alistamasta jotain maankolkkaa. You can compare this to Peter the Great annexing the baltic provinces of Sweden outright even though they were far better run than his own backwards shithole of a country. Finland totally lucked out in 1809.
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Jun 23, 2016 14:23
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Cerebral Bore posted:This is utter horseshit. The "Finnish" identity was created out of whole cloth during the 19th century. Hell, there wasn't even a proper Swedish national identity before the 19th century. Every single dinky-rear end province in the kingdom thought that they were separate special snowflakes before the state started promoting nationalism. You can't really "make up" a national identity though, unless we're talking about different things. Sweden 100% had "swedishness" as a unifying thing before the 19th century because otherwise it couldn't have been a world (European) power with colonies and successful overseas wars. Finland of course was a part of that, but the metsäläisheimot especially weren't Swedish in identity in the same way as the mainland or even Skåne.
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Jun 23, 2016 14:31
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Ligur posted:Suomalaisilla on mm. ihan oma kieli joka ei ole edes millään tavalla sukua ruotsille jos ei nomaaleja lainasanoja lasketa. Tribal stuff like that is not the same as a national identity. Look up fennomania.
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Jun 23, 2016 14:32
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Ligur posted:No voi vittu nyt taas. Ei, se polkaistiin Eestistä 
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Jun 23, 2016 14:37
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Darkest Auer posted:You can't really "make up" a national identity though, unless we're talking about different things. Sweden 100% had "swedishness" as a unifying thing before the 19th century because otherwise it couldn't have been a world (European) power with colonies and successful overseas wars. Finland of course was a part of that, but the metsäläisheimot especially weren't Swedish in identity in the same way as the mainland or even Skåne. No, Sweden didn't have "Swedishness" in any larger sense before nationalism was invented. Just think about it for a moment, why the gently caress would some dirt farmer in Skåne feel a connection with (or even give half a poo poo about) some Dalecarlian miner that he's never going to meet ever? Hell, for the majority of swedish people before the industrial age, the only time they were going to meet anybody from farther away than the next village over was if you got conscripted into the army, and even then the regiments were set up on a provincial basis. In the same way, some Kainuun kaskenpolttaja didn't share any actual bond with a coastal fisherman just because they could maybe understand each other a little bit if they ever met. Hell, a proper standardised finnish language didn't even exist prior to the introduction of Kansakoulu. As for the bolded part, Sweden managed to get to world power status on the back of a mix of good administration, religious fanaticism and sucking up to the Dutch. No nationalism required. Also the whole Gothicism movement in Sweden is a very good example of how a national identity gets made up, because it literally was a hodgepodge of whatever sounded cool at the time thrown together and twisted to support a specific worldview by a tiny clique of academics. EDIT: Though it should be said that there did exist a sense of commonality based on the estates of the realm, but that's far closer to class solidarity than it is to nationalism. Besides that, I like how the existence of a national identity somehow follows from the existence of a mythology, and especially from a mythology that was so obscure at the time that Lönnrot had to spend years cobbling it together from the accounts of various crusty old folk singers. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 14:51
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Darkest Auer posted:Admittedly I've read mostly sort-of-nationalist authors, but the picture I've gotten is that while everyone acknowledged Stockholm and the King as being the rulers, Finland always had its own strong identity and sense of separateness much stronger than other regions on the Swedish "mainland". Shortly: No, this is crap and is built to retroactively justify the structure of current Finnish state because [reasons]. Long answer: This is because you look at this from the anachronistic point of view of nation state and state identity. There is an implicit assumption that nation state MUST have historical precedence before any given point in time and that current political situation has some superlong historical background. This is false, because the way societies and states worked before nation states became a thing was profoundly different. What mattered for most people were: - profession - class - do you happen to live near sea or water - which religion you happened to belong to - your imminent authorities - was there a war going on around your home - were you drafted - what is the closest major settlement and how fast can you reach it by boat What did not matter: - borders - what language your neighbours spoke - what language your superiors spoke - the exact geographical location of yourself - the history of who have been in control of your patch of land, unless one of them was particularly cruel or otherwise bad There did not exist a Finnish nationality. There did not even exist a Swedish nationality in a way that we can directly comprehend. There existed local common identities, religious identities and class identities. Finland was just one of the Swedish lands. The language and animistic religions was not important. Later, you say that Sweden had 100 % swedishness as a unifying thing before 19th century. I don't know what this means and I think my initial assumption must be wrong. El Perkele fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 15:15
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Hogge Wild posted:i thought that it was more about pacifying finland faster and because our administrative system meant that tax collecting etc. was more efficient than in the rest of the russia The Swedish constitution that was applied to the Grand Duchy also was very much a benefit to the Tsar because it was the absolutist constitution that Gustav III had written.
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Jun 23, 2016 15:47
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doverhog posted:Tribal stuff like that is not the same as a national identity. Look up fennomania. Indeed but while Finland the nation state has not been subjugated, ruled and taxed by foreing powers that much (EU lol), Finns the own language speaking tribe and group, have been.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:09
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Well except for the fact that Finns never were a single tribe or shared a strong ethnic identity before the 1800s
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Jun 23, 2016 22:59
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It's also kinda unusual that a colonist gives the colonised the same rights and representation that the metropole enjoys, but maybe the insiduous Swede is just that crafty.
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Jun 23, 2016 23:11
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mä voin ladata crusader kings kakkosen satakunnan suurpäällikkönä ja luoda Suomen kuningaskunnan ennen vuotta tuhat herra jeesuksen jälkeen, shakki ja matti hurrinnussijat 
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Jun 24, 2016 07:32
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Herman Merman posted:Well except for the fact that Finns never were a single tribe or shared a strong ethnic identity before the 1800s There's still no strong ethnic identity except when it comes to ice-hockey. All the tribes actually hate each other and all the non-Finns especially hate Finns because we're less in-bred (apart from the Swedish-speakers) and taller than everyone else.
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Jun 24, 2016 08:58
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The Brexit is happening - although not immediately - so expect to see others happening all over Europe. Sebastian Tynkkynen is trying to kickstart our own with his citizen initiative.
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Jun 24, 2016 09:23
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Citizen initiatives mean nothing if they don't have parliamentary support. The only way we would get Fexit vote is if Persut became the largest party by a large margin.
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Jun 24, 2016 09:25
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Free Ligur, so he can offer his biting commentary on the issue!
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Jun 24, 2016 09:25
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doverhog posted:Citizen initiatives mean nothing if they don't have parliamentary support. The only way we would get Fexit vote is if Persut became the largest party by a large margin. PS+KESK+KD heil satan
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Jun 24, 2016 09:28
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doverhog posted:Citizen initiatives mean nothing if they don't have parliamentary support. The only way we would get Fixit vote is if Persut became the largest party by a large margin. ftfy Media would have a field day with that one.
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Jun 24, 2016 09:28
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HerraS posted:mä voin ladata crusader kings kakkosen satakunnan suurpäällikkönä ja luoda Suomen kuningaskunnan ennen vuotta tuhat herra jeesuksen jälkeen, shakki ja matti hurrinnussijat Tämä toisaalta tarkoittaa että Suomi on laillisesti Skandinavian keisarin alamaisuudessa. Rexroom posted:The Brexit is happening - although not immediately - so expect to see others happening all over Europe. Sebastian Tynkkynen is trying to kickstart our own with his citizen initiative. Because what we really need right now is sending our stagnant economy circling down the drain.
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Jun 24, 2016 09:29
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The stagnant economy that is actually growing?
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Jun 24, 2016 09:31
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Cerebral Bore posted:Because what we really need right now is sending our stagnant economy circling down the drain. It's not like that stopped the UK
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Jun 24, 2016 09:32
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Herman Merman posted:Well except for the fact that Finns never were a single tribe or shared a strong ethnic identity before the 1800s Would the medieaval karelian and hämäläinen necessarily even understood each other?
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Jun 24, 2016 15:44
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Fish of hemp posted:Would the medieaval karelian and hämäläinen necessarily even understood each other? Questionable. There are literally dialects in this country in the year twenty-loving-sixteen that I can't understand, and I can't imagine that the situation would be improved by the lack of a standardised language. Andrast posted:It's not like that stopped the UK Yeah, we're probably hosed as well. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 24, 2016 16:47
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Ligur posted:I'm an old man, yelling at a cloud. But why on earth do you equate light hearted musings to "complaining". Holy gently caress you butthurt retard every time I engage any of you or your ilk you are begging me to stop within three posts because you just can't take anything with a modicum of reality or facts Maybe stop calling me out you miserable whining shitlord do you thrive on complete embarrassment or something? I get to call you a whiner because a) mostly all you do is whine and b) because I engage you anyway and don't run away like a little bitch, while you do. Always. It is that simple. this is whining by the way but I'm being honest about it instead claiming I'm not doing something I am you ridicolous child Also did I say all your posts are whining? No? More lies. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 24, 2016 22:18
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DarkCrawler posted:butthurt DarkCrawler posted:retard Check your language, you soggy tissue.
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Jun 24, 2016 23:25
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Nii se on
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Jun 24, 2016 23:42
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We must engage ligur(s) in a hostile manner, for the sake of our country and this thread. There cannot be the impression that all or most Finns are like him, just because he posts the most. Drink your beer, swing your kettle-bell, and then gird yourself to deny the ligurs of the world relevance. Make fun of them, call their facts into question, fart in their direction, etc. ... You can do it.
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Jun 24, 2016 23:57
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Puistokemisti posted:Homophobic. If you think only gays engage in anal sex and still call developmentally disabled people retards it is you who has the problem. Is "idiot" ableist too? These gotcha attempts are really tired and really easy to counter so perhaps check your language as in check that it doesn't read like it is written by a moron (Oops!) because you can do better! DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Jun 25, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2016 06:51
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Jun 25, 2016 10:17
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DarkCrawler posted:If you think only gays engage in anal sex and still call developmentally disabled people retards it is you who has the problem. Is "idiot" ableist too? Are you seriously arguing that it's ok to to use prejudiced term because people don't commonly call developmentally disabled people retards anymore? For real? Does this apply to other prejudiced insults too or is there list of which prejudices are old enough that they can be used freely? Or do you just believe that mentally disabled people shouldn't be protected against discrimination? And of course when you use discriminating insults, it's ok and normal and if someone calls you out on it, it's they who are the problem. Good job. And yes, idiot is ableist, because it's an insult based on characteristics someone was born with. Do you want me to spell it out why that shouldn't be tolerated? The word you might find useful here is 'ignorant'.
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Jun 25, 2016 10:24
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DarkCrawler posted:Holy gently caress you butthurt retard every time I engage any of you or your ilk you are begging me to stop within three posts because you just can't take anything with a modicum of reality or facts you are the most easily triggered poster
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Jun 25, 2016 10:30
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He really showed you and your ilk.
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Jun 25, 2016 10:32
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Puistokemisti posted:And yes, idiot is ableist, because it's an insult based on characteristics someone was born with. Do you want me to spell it out why that shouldn't be tolerated? The word you might find useful here is 'ignorant'. 
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Jun 25, 2016 10:34
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DarkCrawler posted:Holy gently caress you butthurt retard every time I engage any of you or your ilk you are begging me to stop within three posts because you just can't take anything with a modicum of reality or facts Mitäs jos menisit vaikka hetkiseksi ulkosalle. Kattelisit vaikka kukkia, niitä on tänä vuodenaikana kivasti tarjolla. Jos vähän miettisit mitkä asiat ovat tärkeitä elämässä. Koska voi morjens tätäkin itkuporkuraivaria. Oletko kenties ehdolla kunnallispolitiikkaan?
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Jun 25, 2016 10:38
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gently caress you and your elk
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Jun 25, 2016 12:31
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Fish of hemp posted:Would the medieaval karelian and hämäläinen necessarily even understood each other? Probably. After all, most Finns can half-rear end communicating with Estonians. Except for the Estonians who are obsessed about immigration and have to post in Scanpol and Finpol about immigrants constantly, maybe. In addition, multilingualism was a lot more common in the pre-modern world than people realize. You can actually still see this in several developing nations where it's not uncommon for people to speak seven or more languages on a functional level.
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Jun 25, 2016 13:39
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