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waitwhatno posted:A Georgian immigrant is willing to work for effectively 5 EUR per hour, for 10 hours per day, cleaning floors or delivering food to disabled old people. That's a job that would not exist without the Georgian person, because no European would ever, under any circumstances, do it. Natives and most immigrants do not compete for the same jobs. On the contrary, a lot of Europeans who are also EU citizens (and I would imagine even more who aren't EU citizens) do in fact work for 5 EUR per hour or less. Did you mean to limit your statement to Germany?
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Jun 26, 2016 18:15
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@Troika: In the UK, there were 925 million hours worked per week five years ago. Today, there are 996 million hours worked per week - a 7.6% increase. How do you reconcile this sort of increase in work done with the notion that automation has made job creation obsolete? Automation of tasks is a perplexing problem for nations to face going forward, but there is no evidence that it is responsible for the employment troubles of refugees. Inability to integrate seems far more likely.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:25
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Lagotto posted:No Georgian immigrant will, or is allowed to, because thankfully we have a decent minimum wage and a decent social welfare states, which both guarantee a better income. I can tell that you have never worked in a shitjob in your life and do not know anyone who has. Work time and minimum wage laws (de facto) do not apply to this kind of work. AAPsel posted:This market is already served by Polish and other eastern europeans who can work insane shifts while costing less than a native on a (semi) legal basis. Refugees are fully subject to the host nation's labor laws and compete against lower class natives, often 2nd or 3rd generation descendants of underpaid immigrants themselves. Long term,.Poland's economy is turning into a developed one. None of the EE country are going to stay a source of cheap, abusable labor forever. And EU work migrants are not a full replacement for resident worker anyway.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:25
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waitwhatno posted:I can tell that you have never worked in a shitjob in your life and do not know anyone who has. Work time and minimum wage laws (de facto) do not apply to this kind of work. What country are you talking about here because they certainly do in at least some of them?
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Jun 26, 2016 18:29
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waitwhatno posted:I can tell that you have never worked in a shitjob in your life and do not know anyone who has. Work time and minimum wage laws (de facto) do not apply to this kind of work. You know poo poo all dude, certainly not Dutch social and labour laws or my labour history. Now please gently caress off with your dumb one liners.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:30
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waitwhatno posted:I can tell that you have never worked in a shitjob in your life and do not know anyone who has. Work time and minimum wage laws (de facto) do not apply to this kind of work. Saying the arrival of refugees and immigrants causes the creation of an underclass that has no legal protections is not an argument for letting them in.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:31
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doverhog posted:Saying the arrival of refugees and immigrants causes the creation of an underclass that has no legal protections is not an argument for letting them in. I mean yeah we never should have let the refugees in. Every sovereign nation has that right, it stands to reason after all. What do you mean that refugees have rights too?
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Jun 26, 2016 18:37
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waitwhatno posted:I can tell that you have never worked in a shitjob in your life and do not know anyone who has. Work time and minimum wage laws (de facto) do not apply to this kind of work. Maybe not in your hellhole of a country. Over here we try to keep things civilised. Sometimes farmers try to treat their eastern european labour like serfs, then we arrest them and put them in prison. While working below minimum wage and ignoring work time and health and safety requirements happens it is kind of frowned upon and a crime. Your argument is literally that employers should commit more crimes.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:46
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Andrast posted:What country are you talking about here because they certainly do in at least some of them? All of them. How it is implemented depends on the type of job, but the normal modus operandi is to assign more work than can be realistically performed in the payed work time. That's the tactic used on postal.and delivery people, etc. Another popular tactic is to keep people beyond their work hours and tell them that it's part of the job to do unpaid clean up, etc. Construction worker are often "employed" as "free contractors", which do not get much legal protection.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:46
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waitwhatno posted:You inbred hicks, everyone is having the biggest stock market crash since 2008. London stock exchange is burning, DAX lost 10% of its value, some British banks are down by 1/3. You inbred hicks. 
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Jun 26, 2016 18:46
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NihilismNow posted:Maybe not in your hellhole of a country. Over here we try to keep things civilised. Sometimes farmers try to treat their eastern european labour like serfs, then we arrest them and put them in prison. It's Germany, land of the minijobs. Austerity and refugees for everyone!
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Jun 26, 2016 18:51
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:@Troika: In the UK, there were 925 million hours worked per week five years ago. Today, there are 996 million hours worked per week - a 7.6% increase. How do you reconcile this sort of increase in work done with the notion that automation has made job creation obsolete? Automation of tasks is a perplexing problem for nations to face going forward, but there is no evidence that it is responsible for the employment troubles of refugees. Inability to integrate seems far more likely. As you point out, there are other jobs available in the economy (like backhoe manufacturing), but the low-skilled ones, like the ones suitable for an under-educated refugee, are more limited. Also due to lack of language skills, they'd have a hard time in the service sector, which is a problem given the structure of our economies.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:55
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Spain voted today, right? I'm led to believe that polls are closing in minutes if the article I read was correct... when are results expected, and what does everyone think will end up happening?
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Jun 26, 2016 18:59
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Private Speech posted:I mean yeah we never should have let the refugees in. Every sovereign nation has that right, it stands to reason after all. You appear to be arguing in favor of letting them in because of human rights and such. Great, that's a much better argument than saying they are needed so they can work illegally and erode rights the labour movement fought hard for.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:03
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PT6A posted:Spain voted today, right? I'm led to believe that polls are closing in minutes if the article I read was correct... when are results expected, and what does everyone think will end up happening? https://twitter.com/BreakingNews/status/747128768255430656
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Jun 26, 2016 19:06
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https://twitter.com/EurActiv/status/747106341458706432 only thing that can happen here is a Podemos-PSOE coalition with Iglesias as PM.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:10
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So are the good guys winning?
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Jun 26, 2016 19:13
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waitwhatno posted:I'm not Dutch, but here in Germany immigrant are the foundation of our economy, our economy would literally not exist without them. This is not some theory, but a basic fact. Yeah but that's because you've stopped breeding, so you actually need to find a different way to replenish your shrinking population.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:14
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Nilbop posted:So are the good guys winning? You should know already that anything with "Popular" in the name is loving vile and not actually fighting for the people at all.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:15
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Cat Mattress posted:What made me object was specifically this: And since the discussion at least partly started because an American had trouble understanding how Europe was having issues integrating refugees, here's a simple comparison. Note that the US is able to decide which refugees get to come and which don't.  Of course the US also sees significant (illegal) immigration from Mexico and south, but that's at least based on people going where the work is. I mean, there was a net migration back into Mexico the five years after the world economy blew up, until the US got its economy going again. Meanwhile Europe has seen steady or rising immigration, on top of a never-ending economic malaise.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:15
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Meanwhile Europe has seen steady or rising immigration, on top of a never-ending economic malaise. The thing is, it's "malaise" in your relative parlance. For the rest of the poor as dirt world, Europe is a loving heaven of honey and milk with abundant work. So of course they're gonna leave their shithole of a home country and go steal delicious UK jobs. It's what I'm doing at the moment. It's a matter of perspective. We should just abolish all borders and let people go wherever the gently caress they want and have a single global government. I propose holding a referendum over this. Plan to actually implement it? There's no plan.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:18
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mobby_6kl posted:I'm certainly not one of the luddites who's afraid that robots are taking our jerbs but you only need to go to a developing country to see crowds of people doing basic manual work that nobody in the developed world does any more. We don't have a dozen people with shovels digging trenches here, it's one guy in a backhoe. The UK definitely counts as the developed world, yet the amount of hours work continues to increased rapidly. The same goes for other developed countries. Limited language proficiency is all thats actually required for many service jobs, especially in a work gang environment where one person can translate if need be. Automation has heavily affected jobs such as forestry and manufacturing, but these trends have been going on for decades without causing a sudden, mysterious shortage of jobs for refugees that only happened in the past few years. A government paper on refugee settlement in the US. Not totally applicable, but i thought it was of interest. 
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Jun 26, 2016 19:19
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Pochoclo posted:The thing is, it's "malaise" in your relative parlance. For the rest of the poor as dirt world, Europe is a loving heaven of honey and milk with abundant work. So of course they're gonna leave their shithole of a home country and go steal delicious UK jobs. It's what I'm doing at the moment. It's a matter of perspective.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:20
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That Europe is heaven compared to a civil war torn country doesn't somehow produce jobs though. You're not getting my point. Let me try and make it simpler: you know how if you put something hot next to something cold, they will eventually reach a state of equilibrium? People will go where things are better than where they are right now. It doesn't matter if you think jobs are running out, it's still infinitely more than the immigrants would get back home. It's all relative. And it's not heaven compared to a civil war torn country, man. You overestimate the rest of the world. Argentina is not a poor country by any means compared to, say, Zimbabwe or Haiti. Life is okay there. The EU rich countries (UK, Denmark, Sweden, etc) are still like 50 times better. It's just that where life is "okay" or better, most people just shrug and carry on. That's why you get more Polish immigrants than Argentinians. Also distance and ease of moving. Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jun 26, 2016 |
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Jun 26, 2016 19:21
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Pochoclo posted:You're not getting my point. Let me try and make it simpler: you know how if you put something hot next to something cold, they will eventually reach a state of equilibrium? People will go where things are better than where they are right now. It doesn't matter if you think jobs are running out, it's still infinitely more than the immigrants would get back home. It's all relative.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:26
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Pochoclo posted:You're not getting my point. Let me try and make it simpler: you know how if you put something hot next to something cold, they will eventually reach a state of equilibrium? People will go where things are better than where they are right now. It doesn't matter if you think jobs are running out, it's still infinitely more than the immigrants would get back home. It's all relative. This is exactly what people are afraid of, that given enough time and unlimited immigration, Europe will effectively reach a state of equilibrium with the rest of the world. Wealth is not a magical, inherent, fixed quality of certain geographic areas, it is the product of specific societies with specific cultures and institutions.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:27
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Phlegmish posted:This is exactly what people are afraid of, that given enough time and unlimited immigration, Europe will effectively reach a state of equilibrium with the rest of the world. Wealth is not a magical, inherent, fixed quality of certain geographic areas, it is the product of specific societies with specific cultures and institutions. We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:28
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welcome to the real world you lazy euro bastards!!!
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Jun 26, 2016 19:28
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Phlegmish posted:This is exactly what people are afraid of, that given enough time and unlimited immigration, Europe will effectively reach a state of equilibrium with the rest of the world. Wealth is not a magical, inherent, fixed quality of certain geographic areas, it is the product of specific societies with specific cultures and institutions. Well, capitalism's end game is global equilibrium of miserable poverty and lack of equality. We probably won't be alive to see that, but I give it around 100 years.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:29
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Private Speech posted:We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children. Are we allowed to talk about large scale unskilled immigration without it devolving into exactly this sentence or has the Left just ceded this ground entirely to the political Right?
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Jun 26, 2016 19:29
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Nilbop posted:Are we allowed to talk about large scale unskilled immigration without it devolving into exactly this sentence or has the Left just ceded this ground entirely to the political Right? I don't know, I mean I'm not trying to steer it that way. It's the similarity that struck me The truth is, what else is there to do, from a left wing perspective? How is limiting immigration improving the world, unless you accept the premise that your own people come first? Private Speech fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jun 26, 2016 |
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Jun 26, 2016 19:32
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Private Speech posted:I don't know, I mean I'm not trying to steer it that way. It's the similarity that struck me Putting up barriers is the opposite of globalization.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:33
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I mean where did you think all the first world wealth was coming from? The world is basically a heat pump of wealth powered by exploitation. Immigration is when the pipes leak. We're all responsible for it. You can't just take shelter in your bubble and say "gently caress the rest of the world, they're not bringing MY COUNTRY down", because lol.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:34
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Private Speech posted:I don't know, I mean I'm not trying to steer it that way. It's the similarity that struck me Your own citizens by default come first. Nobody's debating this to my knowledge. That's an issue of citizenship, not race.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:35
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Nilbop posted:Are we allowed to talk about large scale unskilled immigration without it devolving into exactly this sentence or has the Left just ceded this ground entirely to the political Right? Are you allowed to talk about the stock market crash of 1929 without it devolving into the rise of the Nazi party?
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Jun 26, 2016 19:36
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Phlegmish posted:Putting up barriers is the opposite of globalization. Depends on what kind of barriers. I mean from a neoliberal globalised standpoint (at least according to the prevailing leftwing critique) the ideal situation is to maintain poverty in client nations and make them do all the dirty work for the richer ones.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:36
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EDIT: ^^^^^^Phlegmish posted:Putting up barriers is the opposite of globalization. The WTO, EU and NAFTA could have fooled me.
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Jun 26, 2016 19:43
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:Are you allowed to talk about the stock market crash of 1929 without it devolving into the rise of the Nazi party? Is that a yes or a no?
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Jun 26, 2016 19:45
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Nilbop posted:Is that a yes or a no? I think he's saying yes, but don't be surprised when people bring it up as well Sorry I've had to spell it out
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Jun 26, 2016 19:48
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Private Speech posted:I think he's saying yes, but don't be surprised when people bring it up as well
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Jun 26, 2016 19:49
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