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TheDeadlyShoe posted:i am not happy and not cool with random violence to people because you disagree with them, especially with the political turmoil of the last few days. Beating up a Polish person for being Polish and beating up a Nazi for their Nazi ideals are way different.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:12
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:i am not happy and not cool with random violence to people because you disagree with them, especially with the political turmoil of the last few days. On the other hand Cable Street
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Jun 27, 2016 00:13
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Nitrousoxide posted:Yes, infringe any rights as long as it gets guns out of people's hands. Agree. Infringe all rights as long as they're gun rights. Make it a felony to exist in the US, then commute all sentences, then get rid of the law. Boom, we're all felons and ineligible to possess guns.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:13
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nutranurse posted:Beating up a Polish person for being Polish and beating up a Nazi for their Nazi ideals are way different. Speaking of, I wonder how a Polish person would react to that equivalency.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:14
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lol, Nazis trying to claim that rally as their victory because they stabbed a few people, despite every video I see shows the skinheads getting hit in the head with various blunt objects multiple times
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Jun 27, 2016 00:14
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:i am not happy and not cool with random violence to people because you disagree with them, especially with the political turmoil of the last few days. Whoa, being Polish isn't as bad as being a fascist, dude!
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Jun 27, 2016 00:14
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Accretionist posted:Whoa, being Polish isn't as bad as being a fascist, dude! It's almost as though all the concern trolling about violence itt isn't really well thought out.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:21
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The goal of civil society should be to make the standard of living good enough that no one says to themselves "Hmm but what if I was in a better place than [theoretical underclass]?"
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Jun 27, 2016 00:24
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RZA Encryption posted:You'd probably have to prove in court that the speech was the reason for lack of prosecution. Maybe the cops were just too busy that day. 🙃 You really shouldn't be okay with this kind of thing, no matter how horrifying the speech in question.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:25
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Deteriorata posted:Pretty sure it was $5 per day. Also, in his later years Ford allegedly said paying his workers well was a huge mistake. He also worked his son to death, Ford kinda lost his poo poo later in life.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:26
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Sir Tonk posted:He also worked his son to death, Ford kinda lost his poo poo later in life. Historically, how many leftist stances have directly ended up with more dead leftists than "pretty sure we can legitimize the idea of violent mobs as long as it's only against bad guys"? I mean, I'm sure there are some, just wondering how high on the list it is.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:29
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Beat the poo poo out of Nazis every day.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:30
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Paradoxish posted:You really shouldn't be okay with this kind of thing, no matter how horrifying the speech in question. Nah, I think Nazism has earned itself a special exception to being treated civilly. They don't get to be treated as just an alternative viewpoint. Would you feel better if we amended some laws to say "note: this does not apply to Nazis, gently caress those guys."?
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Jun 27, 2016 00:32
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disclaimer: I've owned like eight Ford cars
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Jun 27, 2016 00:34
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Yeah it's ok to beat up Nazis since they're actively trying to remove the rights of not Nazis.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:37
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Paradoxish posted:You really shouldn't be okay with this kind of thing, no matter how horrifying the speech in question. Nazis should always have their faces acquainted with the pavement. Civil discourse with them is not possible, and they are in fact scum.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:38
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Why stop at beating them up?
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Jun 27, 2016 00:43
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Honestly I can understand the desire to punch a Nazi's lights out and I certainly find it harder to feel empathy when it happens to them then when it happens to other groups. That said, we should not make a space within our political ideology where in violence towards a specific group is acceptable. Deciding that one particular group is so vile/rotten that the normal rules of behavior do not apply to them is exactly how nasty poo poo starts. Once you have a target that violence is socially acceptable for, you will without a doubt attract people into your movement who will drive things into terrible places. It will never ever stop with just one group. I can understand the violence directed against Neo-Nazi's today, and I'll not lie that there's a certain catharsis in seeing it happen. But I also want the people who hurt the Nazis to face the full consequences of the law. I also stand against their use of violence. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 00:43
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Sir Tonk posted:disclaimer: I've owned like eight Ford cars I drive a BMW and a Mercedes 
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Jun 27, 2016 00:43
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Fascist have proven over and over again that if you let them get into power peacefully they will kill anyone on their poo poo list no matter how much they protected the rights of the fascists. Bashing the fash is self defense.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:46
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The fascists are actively counting on you to use non-violence, which is why bashing the fash is okay
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Jun 27, 2016 00:48
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I don't care for fascists, me
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Jun 27, 2016 00:48
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MC Nietzche posted:It's almost as though all the concern trolling about violence itt isn't really well thought out. I dont think you know what concern trolling is, and there's been way more celebration of violence than condemnation of it.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:49
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HorseRenoir posted:The fascists are actively counting on you to use non-violence, which is why bashing the fash is okay You think they don't secretly want to fight some commie punks too? Attacks play into their narratives. Mocking them non-violently is more useful and engages them within the framework you supposedly are supporting too. Tuba dude > idiots with pepper spray
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Jun 27, 2016 00:49
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Thump! posted:Nazis should always have their faces acquainted with the pavement. Civil discourse with them is not possible, and they are in fact scum. Except I wasn't responding to whether or not fascists should have the poo poo kicked out of them, I was responding to whether the people doing the poo poo kicking should be charged. I'm not comfortable with cops making that kind of judgment and you shouldn't be either.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:50
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Main Paineframe posted:The $5 a day wasn't really a salary - that's a common misconception. In reality, only half of it was regular pay. The other half was a bonus, only available to workers living up to Ford's ideal of the good and moral American life. That was enforced, too - Ford had a Sociological Department that would regularly inspect employees' homes to make sure that they were keeping things clean, that they didn't have any alcohol around, that they were married at the proper age to a proper woman, and so on. If the inspector didn't feel that you met those conditions, he'd revoke the bonus and your pay would be cut in half. Huh. This second paragraph is a part of the Ford mythology that they don't teach you in Detroit-area schools. I've always been kind of curious about this, so I'll ask the thread: if there are "titans of industry" in your local history, what sorts of things do you learn about them, and what sorts of things are suppressed? For Henry Ford, we got the full push-pull of unions vs. "welfare capitalism," and my remembrance is that it was reasonably balanced... but we certainly didn't hear about the anti-semitism, and he was certainly painted as someone who had personal concerns for the workforce beyond the standard of the day but also did not have much interest in giving up any more than what would be necessary to recruit new people. So things like "he later regretted the $5 workday" and "he had to do the $5 workday because the whole workforce told him to gently caress himself" were definitely not in the curriculum.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:01
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Joementum posted:You know who else faced a struggle and imprisonment to express his views...... Lenin? Mr Hootington posted:Why stop at beating them up? The innate benevolence of the non-fascist seeks to give them the opportunity to mend their ways as well as their bones.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:02
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Fascist have proven over and over again that if you let them get into power peacefully they will kill anyone on their poo poo list no matter how much they protected the rights of the fascists. Bashing the fash is self defense. Is letting them gather in a park to play dress up and sing songs letting them into power? It's not like I feel all that sorry for the dipshits, but it just seems like bad policy to designate an group as a proper receptacle for violence in a society that's trying to get away from violence as an acceptable form of problem solving. Maybe I've just known a few former skin-heads who managed to turn their lives around and be decent people, and I don't like the idea that they could have never had that chance because someone looking for a fight figured bashing the fash was the way to get one with the least amount of social penalty. It's not like fascists are non-violent themselves; is it so much to ask that we let them hit first before bringing out the 2X4?
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Jun 27, 2016 01:05
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Paradoxish posted:Except I wasn't responding to whether or not fascists should have the poo poo kicked out of them, I was responding to whether the people doing the poo poo kicking should be charged. I'm not comfortable with cops making that kind of judgment and you shouldn't be either. But the judgement is pretty easy. Has the targeted group advocated for or actually committed genocide? If yes, go ahead and beat the poo poo out of them.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:05
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RZA Encryption posted:But the judgement is pretty easy. Has the targeted group advocated for or actually committed genocide? If yes, go ahead and beat the poo poo out of them. Not sure if our society could withstand open season on all white Americans.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:08
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AMERICAN REBEL: America's Patriotic Brand Does. Not. loving. Compute.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:10
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Killer robot posted:Historically, how many leftist stances have directly ended up with more dead leftists than "pretty sure we can legitimize the idea of violent mobs as long as it's only against bad guys"? I mean, I'm sure there are some, just wondering how high on the list it is. Uh, basically all of them? Because leftists never were the first ones starting street fighting gangs in any of those countries, so that one has ended up with 0 leftists, by not happening.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:10
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there wolf posted:Is letting them gather in a park to play dress up and sing songs letting them into power? It's not like I feel all that sorry for the dipshits, but it just seems like bad policy to designate an group as a proper receptacle for violence in a society that's trying to get away from violence as an acceptable form of problem solving. Maybe I've just known a few former skin-heads who managed to turn their lives around and be decent people, and I don't like the idea that they could have never had that chance because someone looking for a fight figured bashing the fash was the way to get one with the least amount of social penalty. It's not like fascists are non-violent themselves; is it so much to ask that we let them hit first before bringing out the 2X4? Very much this post. We're all animals and it's the laws and desire to seek out ways to address issues in a civilized way that sort of keeps the whole civilization thing going. Everything about this is atrocious and anyone thumping their chest for antifa cred should take a long hard look at themselves. I usually just lurk but seeing so many people get their cheer on for some violence if it seems like the target is acceptable is really pretty disturbing and I'm wondering if I'm in a minority for feeling this way. If everyone had just surrounded these people and gave them a right round of embarrassment with some 1st-A back the situation would have come out with a lot less stabbing and blood and head-whackings. The views that these individuals were espousing is vile, yeah - but please don't forget that we're all idiots and do some pretty stupid poo poo at various points in our lives. I'm not defending anyone in this post - but it's really icky to see the multiple posters who jump to get in front of each other to cheerlead violence. (Edit: I'm not trying to say the fascist folk are not being very supremely stupid - they are.)
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Jun 27, 2016 01:20
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Nazi: hmm, these people have been synonymous with hatred and vilified my entire life. They killed millions recently enough to where survivors are still alive. I'd like to join them and march to show others that this is an acceptable belief system. People in this thread: it would be an injustice to harm this person based on their political beliefs.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:26
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Violence is not supposed to be the cure all to the existence of horrible people. The use of violence against others because of their views is an aspect of facism in and of itself, is it not? Also, I am deeply uncomfortable with making Nazis actual victims.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:31
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RZA Encryption posted:Nazi: hmm, these people have been synonymous with hatred and vilified my entire life. They killed millions recently enough to where survivors are still alive. I'd like to join them and march to show others that this is an acceptable belief system. All strawmanning aside..I get that some people want to have a straight up war with the 1488 crowd, but you'll have to excuse me if there's some people out there that would rather not see stabbings/mace and fighting in the streets. Totally fine with anti-demonstrating by the way - and making them to feel like fools. Just not going to be one of the violence fans. Sorry?
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Jun 27, 2016 01:32
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Yeah, what Sunset and there wolf said. I think that if anything we need more safeguards against fascist ideas gaining any sort of political power whatsoever (hello, Donald Trump), but assaulting them for displaying their opinions in public gets it more or less backwards. Fascism should be seen as some sort of societal non sequitur, something so inimical to our democracy that putting it into any sort of public policy or party platform is an utter non-starter, but you should still be able to hold a sign for it in public. And if someone takes a swing at you for it? Sure, if that's what they want to use their 'get arrested for assault' card for, that's their prerogative. I don't think they should, but in the end I'm more sympathetic to it than to most reasons for assaulting people.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:32
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"lol just make fun of them and make them feel like fools"  Nazis don't feel like fools jesus loving christ they lack any form of self awareness
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Jun 27, 2016 01:33
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Are you guys talking about neo-Nazis now or time machine Nazis from the past or what?
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Jun 27, 2016 01:35
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:"lol just make fun of them and make them feel like fools" Yeah, "make everyone else see what fools they are" is probably more appropriate
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Jun 27, 2016 01:35
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