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Not enough people are talking about Obama's real accomplishments:
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Jun 27, 2016 01:35
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fishmech posted:Not enough people are talking about Obama's real accomplishments: Forward-thinking policies really paying off 
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Jun 27, 2016 01:37
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:"lol just make fun of them and make them feel like fools" Maybe you don't fully realize just how fully the power of shaming can influence a person? It might not change all of those people - but you might be successful in reaching some of them. ...nah, why bother when you can just lift a good ol piece of oak and smash some heads in. Smash the fash! You're right - that seems so much better of a solution. But I mean - why stop there. If the solution is violence - why leave them alive to recommit? If violence is all these animals understand, then lets give them what they want, full tilt. Right?
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Jun 27, 2016 01:38
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Or you'll feed their sense of the social order needing rectification. I've met a few fascist/neo-nazi types and shame-attempts would probably just feed their ragey narcissism and sense of being wronged by reality.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:45
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Sunset posted:Maybe you don't fully realize just how fully the power of shaming can influence a person? It might not change all of those people - but you might be successful in reaching some of them. While I don't agree with the people advocating violence, I think it's silly to pretend that this is the silver bullet for fighting fascism. This was exactly what people were advocating with Drumpf, and then he ended up winning the primary. Drumpf supporters didn't care that their chosen candidate was being ridiculed constantly. In fact, for many of them that was an endorsement. I think ridicule can work in small scale social dynamics like getting your one dumb racist friend to maybe not be so racist anymore, but it doesn't really seem to work on any sort of wide scale. It just ends up with people not taking the fascism seriously and giving horrible ideas room to breathe.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:45
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I get the feeling most shame advocates are projecting their own need for approval from the shaming group.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:47
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If we just killed the fascists we wouldn't have to continue to commit violence. The only good nazi is a dead nazi. Use your gun today!
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Jun 27, 2016 01:49
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Sunset posted:Maybe you don't fully realize just how fully the power of shaming can influence a person? It doesn't work on them. Yes we successfully shamed most people from seriously considering fascism a good idea. That doesn't make the remainder vanish.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:50
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It wasn't shame that crushed the notion of Nazism as a form of government it was a loving World War.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:51
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Mr Hootington posted:If we just killed the fascists we wouldn't have to continue to commit violence. I mean that's how we beat them the first time
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Jun 27, 2016 01:53
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Full Battle Rattle posted:I mean that's how we beat them the first time And yet they are still here.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:55
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Can we as a society declare an eternal war against Nazism and outlaw all pro-Nazi groups and demonstrations just like we did during World War 2?
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Jun 27, 2016 01:57
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If we can bash fascists for being evil, can we bash communists and socialists for being evil too?
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Jun 27, 2016 01:57
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fishmech posted:It doesn't work on them. Alright - so if we can't shame them enough to feel everything is acceptable where it stands - what is the proper course of actions? Please don't tell me it's 2x4, knives, and chains in a public park. Please? I'm not trying to use kid gloves, but I'd like to come short of believing that we as a society say that violence is ok on these people because well, talking won't work, so what else is there? Responding with violence is just going to beget more violence and so on and so forth. Both 'groups' (sides?) in this brawl are probably fine with that. I just wish they weren't.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:58
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Can we as a society declare an eternal war against Nazism and outlaw all pro-Nazi groups and demonstrations just like we did during World War 2? Yes please. Add ISIL to the list as well. Like, don't let it get to violence. Just arrest Nazis on sight.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:58
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:It wasn't shame that crushed the notion of Nazism as a form of government it was a loving World War. You don't get more bash the fash than a multi-front world-wide war meant to stop a bunch of murderous fascists and racial/cultural supremacists from loving up and murdering the better portion of the world. It's honestly an unimaginably toxic ideology that almost always trends towards scapegoating innocent people and getting them hurt or killed to propagate and sustain itself. Ditto for most types of fascism and populism that rely on othering people. They play to the worst parts of the human psyche. I can't blame someone for doing the whole "bash the fash" thing in light of that. On the other hand these chucklefucks pretty much feed off of that sort of attention. From the looks of it this group has combined using Christianity to gently caress with people's rights, white supremacy, a persecution complex, and fascist elements. It's like a perfect storm of the American right wing's worst elements. And they loving feed off this stuff. Plus they have a right to voice their opinion so long as it's not causing harm. However that being said I can't help but feel that they'd cheerfully stab or hurt people (Like so many fascist groups do in other countries.) in far larger numbers if they had a numerical advantage and it was your average American protesting them. Hell, some of the reports coming out of the event said that it was the neo-nazi's doing the initial violence/stabbing people. Which prompted the counter-protester's to retaliate. Edit: Also some people are saying that the leader of the fascist movement/protest was one of the people recorded at a Trump rally assaulting a black man. So yeah. If that's true they're literally violent neo-nazi's with a nasty white supremacist streak masquerading as your usual right wing "moral concern" group. Which kind of diminishes any sympathy anyone could reasonably have for them. Assuming you aren't a neo-nazi sympathizer yourself. Archonex fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 01:58
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Sunset posted:Alright - so if we can't shame them enough to feel everything is acceptable where it stands - what is the proper course of actions? Bash them in the skull if they remain dumb enough to go marching around letting us know they're fascists, or actively beating minorities etc up. They're free to avoid this by shutting the gently caress up.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:00
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Sunset posted:Alright - so if we can't shame them enough to feel everything is acceptable where it stands - what is the proper course of actions? Please don't tell me it's 2x4, knives, and chains in a public park. Please? I'm not trying to use kid gloves, but I'd like to come short of believing that we as a society say that violence is ok on these people because well, talking won't work, so what else is there? Germany has it pretty right on from what I can tell. Be a Nazi in public? Get arrested. Absolute freedom of speech is overrated.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:00
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Mr Hootington posted:If we can bash fascists for being evil, can we bash communists and socialists for being evil too? There exists no perfect rule set. Everything exists on a knife's edge. Everything requires work and maintenance. I'm not saying people should be beating up fascists, but I do take issue with what I'm seeing as false-equivalencies.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:01
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Win the war of ideas by killing your opponent. That was written right into the Constitution. Don't you remember when Ben Franklin said "a stitch in the eye saves you from having to debate!" Why are you guys being so slow?
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Jun 27, 2016 02:02
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They just want to take all the Mexicans, Muslims, gays, blacks, and non Christians almost in that exact order and slyly murder them in prison camps. Why can't we cut them some slack, just hear them out?
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Jun 27, 2016 02:02
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DreamingofRoses posted:And yet they are still here. Okay so explain to me how the American white power movement is similar in scope or ability or influence to the NSDAP of the 30's
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Jun 27, 2016 02:03
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fishmech posted:Bash them in the skull if they remain dumb enough to go marching around letting us know they're fascists, or actively beating minorities etc up. They're free to avoid this by shutting the gently caress up. Bash them for going out and showing their colors in public? Ok, got it! That's....not fascist at all.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:08
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dogs named Charlie posted:They just want to take all the Mexicans, Muslims, gays, blacks, and non Christians almost in that exact order and slyly murder them in prison camps. Why can't we cut them some slack, just hear them out? I dunno dude, there are tons of people whose ideas I find extremely toxic and would not for a minute consider being an accepted part of public policy and yet I can avoid thinking that I should hit them with a 2x4 for having that opinion in public. fishmech posted:Bash them in the skull if they remain dumb enough to go marching around letting us know they're fascists, or actively beating minorities etc up. I know you didn't say in so many words that these are equally bad, but it's legitimately disturbing to me that you group them together in the same class of offense.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:09
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Sunset posted:Bash them for going out and showing their colors in public? Ok, got it! That's....not fascist at all. So wise...antifascism is fascism.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:10
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dogs named Charlie posted:They just want to take all the Mexicans, Muslims, gays, blacks, and non Christians almost in that exact order and slyly murder them in prison camps. Why can't we cut them some slack, just hear them Yes, because being against violence is the same as wanting to give Nazis a platform to speak. I'm all for huge fines or enforced community service as a punishment for hate speech. The way you get people to change their minds is to take them out of their bubble and expose them to different people and cultures in a way where they don't have the advantage of either numbers or home turf. Violence makes them into martyrs for those that agree with them and keeping a lid on it like that encourages festering. Full Battle Rattle posted:Okay so explain to me how the American white power movement is similar in scope or ability or influence to the NSDAP of the 30's It's not, but the ideology is still around and is gaining momentum with people who should know better. What do you think would happen if Donald Trump actually wins? DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 02:10
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RZA Encryption posted:Yes please. Add ISIL to the list as well. Can you imagine an ISIL rally in America? I bet a lot of the people gleefully pointing out liberal hypocrisy today would be singing a different tune. Also, isn't any take on the Sacramento at this point way too early? I don't even think most of the people who were there know how this started, but if it was the counter protest group then... It is monumentally stupid to pick a fight with a California Neo Nazi rally. If they try this poo poo again I'm pretty sure people will die.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:11
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Sunset posted:Bash them for going out and showing their colors in public? Ok, got it! That's....not fascist at all. Correct, it isn't. You're free to invite all the fascists to have their rallies in your yard if you don't want any meanies hurting them! JerryLee posted:
They are just as bad, sorry that you're privileged enough to not worry about being their targets I guess? DreamingofRoses posted:Violence makes them into martyrs for those that agree with them and keeping a lid on it like that encourages festering. What you're not aware enough to get is they claim the martyr regardless of whether they actually get attacked. See also: all those whiny christians who claim the christian man is the most persecuted in society because someone said happy holidays to them.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:11
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Sunset posted:Bash them for going out and showing their colors in public? Ok, got it! That's....not fascist at all. It's ok to not play by the rules when they're Nazis, though.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:12
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Moxie posted:Can you imagine an ISIL rally in America? I bet a lot of the people gleefully pointing out liberal hypocrisy today would be singing a different tune. I wonder how many of us would be very angry if a New Black Panther rally was interrupted with bashing.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:15
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Mr Hootington posted:I wonder how many of us would be very angry if a New Black Panther rally was interrupted with bashing. Hopefully all of us? They are not Nazis nor ISIL.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:16
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fishmech posted:Correct, it isn't. You're free to invite all the fascists to have their rallies in your yard if you don't want any meanies hurting them! And yet most people just roll their eyes and keep walking. It's a lot easier to ignore people's whining when it is not based in actual reports of discrimination. Which is a completely separate issue from people being hit on the loving head by a 2 x 4, which is pretty drat close to attempted murder
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Jun 27, 2016 02:18
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GalacticAcid posted:So wise...antifascism is fascism. What I'm saying is...both seem to love a specific tool set in their toolbox beyond any other and jump at the chance to use it on each other. And if you're not one of those people who prefer that tool, you're somehow bad. I'm not trying to make anyone defensive - it just seems really gross to me to be able to use a magic word on your opponent and suddenly you can do violence on them and be applauded for it. I'm not one of those people. Edit: Essentially - there's probably a few of us out there that sees the white power as sick people, but maybe also sees the antifa people running up and bashing/stabbing - and those supporting them, as also maybe a little sick with the bloodlust. Like, there needs to be a whole lot less of that in society right now. There's not going to be anyone left eventually with all the shootings and bashings and fashings. Sunset fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 02:18
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RZA Encryption posted:Hopefully all of us? They are not Nazis nor ISIL. The NBP advocate bombing churches and killing babies. Your probably thinking of the old BLack Panthers who were cool and good.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:20
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DreamingofRoses posted:And yet most people just roll their eyes and keep walking. Ok, and? You only need a few people willing to actually start mixing it up with the nazis to scare them away - so long as you haven't let the nazis into government.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:21
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I mean, I get the philosophy that nobody deserves to be hurt for their ideology, no matter how much I disagree with them, but then I've got a lifetime of Harrison Ford, Clint Eastwood, Lee Marvin, and even the goddamn Blues Brothers telling me that beating the poo poo out of Nazis is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice, and I'm going with the guys who are a lot more loving fun to listen to.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:22
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What I'm saying is that if you are flying any sort of Swastika and you aren't some poor out of place Hindu then you should face whatever consequences that might come your way.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:22
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Mr Hootington posted:I wonder how many of us would be very angry if a New Black Panther rally was interrupted with bashing. Nobody would gently caress with the Black Panthers because they'd actually fight back rather than crying about being oppressed.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:22
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Deteriorata posted:Nobody would gently caress with the Black Panthers because they'd actually fight back rather than crying about being oppressed. I would hope nobody would gently caress with the Black Panthers, but the organization was dissolved in '82. The New Black Panthers call for armed uprising and genocide. Probably should bash them.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:26
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Mr Hootington posted:I wonder how many of us would be very angry if a New Black Panther rally was interrupted with bashing. Ok now you tell us how they're the same so we can understand your metaphor. If you can't this sounds very stupid.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:28
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