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also I will always sympathize with Cersei because a lot of terrible stuff was visited upon her by either the realities of her society: being shunted aside for Jaime, who was a dyslexic, disinterested twit with a talent for waving a sword around, being sold off as a brood mare to a conquering brute to cement the Lannister's control over the new Baratheon dynasty (after she was initially to be sold off to Rhaegar - which she fancied but either way). And Robert basically goes out of his way to humiliate her and abuse her etc. Her father's controlling nature and demands of absolute service to the family, coupled with her father's enemies, basically leave her with nobody to trust but Jaime. Her rejection of Tyrion is a bid for approval from Tywin, to try and elevate herself as above something other than 'the worst', and beyond that, it's just the way she's learned to exert power. Her spite and ability to hurt people is the only way she can exert power over others in the same way that she's been taught it. She exists in a horrible system that basically victimizes and marginalizes her at every turn, and in a model of abuse, she abuses others to develop her agency - add in her eventual children, who are basically born with a death sentence (either from the prophecy, or the simple fact that they're Jaime's children), and she basically has to fight tooth and nail to carve out some sort of strength where she feels like she can try and protect them from. I mean, you can say that I'm being overly generous and downplaying her sadism or cruelty, and that's fair, I'm just saying that her behavior is totally understandable and comes from natural places in her life, and isn't just 'that girl was born a psychopath." One of my favorite Cersei lines, even if it's a little corny, is Oberyn's "We don't hurt little girls in Dorne." and the "Everywhere in the world they hurt little girls" response that Lena Headey nails. Also Tywin's bit about how Arya reminds him of Cersei when she was little is a little heartbreaking too - if Tywin had been Ned, would Cersei be Arya? I mean, you can't really know, but w/e. I think by the show's treatment of Cersei, it's a lot easier to empathize with Cersei. And even if it's unintentional/accidental, you could argue she's totally uprooted and broken apart the system which abused her, more than Jon Snow would've done, more than the High Sparrow would've done. Also her dress was totally boss and amazing and I loved it. and the armor and metal woven into her garments is her still trying to assert agency in martial or masculine form as she understands it, so it's cool because it's a very tangible manifestation of her insecurity and desire to be treated as someone with power and respect, and to be protected from the harm the world aims at her. i know this is a huge nerd post but I think Cersei Lannister, for all the shows imperfections, is one of the most interesting ladies in popular fiction at the moment.
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Jun 27, 2016 11:50
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meristem posted:Character evolution. Dammit, there was even a scene earlier in the season when she told Jaime that they are the only two people who matter. Tommen not included. Right. And it's hard for Tommen to matter when the prophecy is rapidly coming true. She knew he was fated to die, so her reaction when he did was understandably muted. She's not happy about any of this, but she's not going to down sobbing either. Ambivalent posted:Also her dress was totally boss and amazing and I loved it. and the armor and metal woven into her garments is her still trying to assert agency in martial or masculine form as she understands it, so it's cool because it's a very tangible manifestation of her insecurity and desire to be treated as someone with power and respect, and to be protected from the harm the world aims at her. Your thoughts on the dress, and the post as a whole, are spot on. Nicely written. Nichael fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 11:52
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Sorry, what prophecy is this?
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Jun 27, 2016 11:56
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Nichael posted:Speaking of people dying off screen and aborted plots, it seemed like there were hints this episode that Blackfish didn't actually die. Yeah, I'm skeptical of any sort of twist or reveal at this point, but it does seem weird that there's just some stammering grunt who comes up to Jaime all 'UH, LORD, THE BLACKFISH HAS DIED IN BATTLE' and then Frey is like 'so i guess the blackfish died to some common footsoldiers' and jaime is like 'i guess so.' And I really adore Clive Russell so it'd be cool if he survived but it's hard to see where or why there would have been a fake out at this point. And with only 12 episodes left, do we have time for a yarn about Blackfish joining the Brotherhood or something
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Jun 27, 2016 11:56
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Ambivalent posted:also I will always sympathize with Cersei because a lot of terrible stuff was visited upon her by either the realities of her society: being shunted aside for Jaime, who was a dyslexic, disinterested twit with a talent for waving a sword around, being sold off as a brood mare to a conquering brute to cement the Lannister's control over the new Baratheon dynasty (after she was initially to be sold off to Rhaegar - which she fancied but either way). And Robert basically goes out of his way to humiliate her and abuse her etc. Her father's controlling nature and demands of absolute service to the family, coupled with her father's enemies, basically leave her with nobody to trust but Jaime. Her rejection of Tyrion is a bid for approval from Tywin, to try and elevate herself as above something other than 'the worst', and beyond that, it's just the way she's learned to exert power. Her spite and ability to hurt people is the only way she can exert power over others in the same way that she's been taught it. She was never officially betrothed to Rhaegar, but was under the impression that it was inevitable and so as a young girl she would fantasize about being queen and flying on dragonback with Rhaegar and all that sort of naive wonder and heartbreaking innocence we get on full blast, right away with a focus on child protagonists like Bran, Sansa, and Daenerys. It's a really good contrast that the show pulls of well to express so many of the adult characters's humanities, but like you said all the breathing room for scenes or dialogue which bring it forward as been sucked out as of late, to make room for the Themes or Plots which are deemed essential to The Endgame
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Jun 27, 2016 11:58
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Ambivalent posted:I mean, you can say that I'm being overly generous and downplaying her sadism or cruelty, and that's fair, I'm just saying that her behavior is totally understandable and comes from natural places in her life, and isn't just 'that girl was born a psychopath." The show has done an excellent job realizing Cersei and making her three-dimensional, which makes it a pity that they seem to have simplified Jaime and Tyrion. The Lannisters are kind of the best characters.
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Jun 27, 2016 11:58
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Ambivalent posted:Yeah, I'm skeptical of any sort of twist or reveal at this point, but it does seem weird that there's just some stammering grunt who comes up to Jaime all 'UH, LORD, THE BLACKFISH HAS DIED IN BATTLE' and then Frey is like 'so i guess the blackfish died to some common footsoldiers' and jaime is like 'i guess so.' And I really adore Clive Russell so it'd be cool if he survived but it's hard to see where or why there would have been a fake out at this point. And with only 12 episodes left, do we have time for a yarn about Blackfish joining the Brotherhood or something I'm skeptical too because it's obvious they are tying up all possible loose ends, but the dialogue in this episode seemed unneeded if he actually is dead. We really don't know the final episode counts yet though. We don't even know if season eight is truly the end. The seven and six episode seasons thing is not actually confirmed.
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Jun 27, 2016 11:59
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Ambivalent posted:In some of the early seasons we had stupendous moments of Robert & Cersei, or Tywin & Arya, Bran answering petitioners while Lewin helps and Rickon smashes walnuts. Even some of the later stuff like when Stannis is considering sacrificing Gendry and goes down to meet with Davos in the dungeon, all the Arya & Hound stuff. I would agree with your second complaint but people here and elsewhere complain really loudly about any scene that isn't 'a plot moving scene' these days, be they Tyrion with Mereen people, Tyrion and Varys, Bronn and Podd, etc. And they're not entirely wrong to do so. There is so much stuff going on plot-wise right now, so much movement and tension in most of the stories, that when you have more calm scenes, it can really mess up the pacing of the episodes. This was not true in the first seasons of the show, and it's unavoidable since it's a plot-heavy story in its final third.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:00
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Ambivalent posted:i know this is a huge nerd post but I think Cersei Lannister, for all the shows imperfections, is one of the most interesting ladies in popular fiction at the moment. Totally agreed on all points. Cersei is the most well rounded character in the show by a mile, and Lena Headey absolutely kills it. Making her less than a total stooge in season 5 is also one of the better liberties the show has taken.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:02
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Fulchrum posted:Sorry, what prophecy is this? Maggy's. Her children were always fated to die. I doubt Cersei truly believed though until Joffrey and Myrcella died.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:02
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Ambivalent posted:- if Tywin had been Ned, would Cersei be Arya? I mean, you can't really know, but w/e. read all about this in my au fanfic 'a ballad of frost and flame' which tells the tale of a goodly and generous Tywin Lannister and his family from the hard-working mining town of Casterly Rock, and their efforts to simply stay alive when they're drawn into brutal Game of Thrones by the schemes of the cold and implacable Lord Rickard Stark, whose icy grasp extends from his Northern stronghold to the very seat of power in King's Landing
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Jun 27, 2016 12:04
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All I can think about is how many CG heavy episodes they are going to need next season. Probably good to use the dragon's breath on a chunk of the budget, but it's going to be interesting to see how they pull it off.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:13
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I would agree with your second complaint but people here and elsewhere complain really loudly about any scene that isn't 'a plot moving scene' these days, be they Tyrion with Mereen people, Tyrion and Varys, Bronn and Podd, etc. And they're not entirely wrong to do so. There is so much stuff going on plot-wise right now, so much movement and tension in most of the stories, that when you have more calm scenes, it can really mess up the pacing of the episodes. This was not true in the first seasons of the show, and it's unavoidable since it's a plot-heavy story in its final third. I'm not sure this is necessarily true; there's a lot fewer of those scenes, but mainly because the Big Plot Scenes are just so awkwardly packed and overly-concerned with being a Explicit Juncture or Explosive Climax, that the characters aren't being given space to stretch on the page or on the set. Take this scene for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpD47mmlei4 This occurs at a tense point in a major plot arc - a man has been murdered, the karstarks are growing discontent, and robb's war kingdom and victory are in question; compare this, to say, the Battle of the Bastards which is definitely tense but not nearly as so because you've already been told the knights of the vale are coming, and you've seen the bad ending of this setup already, anyway And they move the meter on the tension back and forth during this scene, while also triggering movement in the greater plot and that of the individual characters, but it does it with so much substance and texture which doesn't show up as often in late-GOT. Like, try watching that clip isolated in your mind, without connecting any of it to asoiaf and GOT. It's incredibly compelling and self-sufficient with pointed dialogue that allows the characters to actually converse while also expositing something about their plans, their character, or their symbolism. One gets an immediate and satisfying feel for the characters, the stakes, and the various things that could happen next. These sorts of scenes' self-sufficiency is also what made the plots, which back then were still using tons of characters covering a lot of ground simultaneously, seem tighter and more focused. In s1-4 there's just a ton of compact bits of efficient reminder exposition to keep yourself clicked into the rails for that particular plot, whereas in the later seasons we're starting to get more and more reminder text and foreshadowing in the form of Previously Ons or big awkward chunks. "You're supposed to get me to King's Landing in one piece.... not doing well, are we? No wonder Renly died with you guarding him" is very sharp, reminds us of where the story is and who the players are, etc. Then, fairly, it does follow with a very long monologue of exposition; but then to sandwich this, we get a new immediate conflict (jaime passing out) and uttering a single four-word plea which has as much weight and importance as the reveal of the wildfire caches. Compare this to, this very season, where we have Tyrion awkwardly bring up the wildfire and prefacing it with "He Jaime, and my brother told me" then he just sort of repeats old info in order to disagree with Daenerys. Then on the opposite end, you have Qyburn and Cersei whispering about the confirmed rumors; it's a very tight and efficient way let us know of some new big stakes and moves the plot towards them, but by itself is not at all a memorable scene tin can made man fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 12:24
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doub
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Jun 27, 2016 12:24
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Well, gotta say that after the bad pussying of last season finale, I'm actually looking forward to a new season now. Prior to season 6, my interest for GoT TV show was at an all-time low.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:31
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So Cersei didn't bother changing since murdering everyone and getting crowned within the time Varys sailed to Dorne and back. Kind of fits her character I guess.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:32
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I still think D&D are hack frauds, but if you absolutely must cram loving half of TWOW into a single goddamn episode, that's how you do it. Good finale.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:35
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Every season at the end of the season I praise the Seven Bronn is still alive so I have someone to root for. Manderley obviously is hosed by D&D so my other book character is gone. Every season will be my most intense Bronn watch.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:38
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Are we seriously trying to speculate that Cersei was just a product of her environment when canonically the first friend she made in her life is basically Mengele?
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Jun 27, 2016 12:38
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Also, was anyone else really happy when Pycelle's veneer dropped right when he realized he was going to be killed and he started kicking rear end a little bit for an old guy? That Little Bird to come at him got a face full of old man fist.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:41
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tin can made man posted:These sorts of scenes' self-sufficiency is also what made the plots, which back then were still using tons of characters covering a lot of ground simultaneously, seem tighter and more focused. In s1-4 there's just a ton of compact bits of efficient reminder exposition to keep yourself clicked into the rails for that particular plot, whereas in the later seasons we're starting to get more and more reminder text and foreshadowing in the form of Previously Ons or big awkward chunks. Yet I still love the poo poo out of this show. That final episode was loving awesome.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:41
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Gorn Myson posted:This right here highlights my problem with the show. I mean I still love it to bits, its easily one of the most entertaining shows on TV given its huge scale and massive dramatic stakes, but the earlier seasons were written with a degree of economy but without making things feel so rushed. Whats baffling is that there is so much wasted time in some of these episodes, but at the same time there are several plots that just feel completely underdeveloped. It's called GRRM. GRRM wrote the first three books incredibly well and the show benefited from his presence on the production staff, having done TV before and actually knowing what parts were moving to which ends as they filmed. He could say 'nah, Margaery is playing The Game but also trying her hardest to be a genuine friend to Sansa here' or whatever. After he left with season 5, the show went to poo poo in a lot of ways. It's a shame, really, because we could have had it better.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:45
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meristem posted:Character evolution. Dammit, there was even a scene earlier in the season when she told Jaime that they are the only two people who matter. Tommen not included. Tommen betrayed her twice, too. Once for pussy (not Ser Pounce), and again for ~the Gods~ so the High Sparrow would think he was cool. Thrice if you factor in how gullible he was.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:54
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Apoplexy posted:Also, was anyone else really happy when Pycelle's veneer dropped right when he realized he was going to be killed and he started kicking rear end a little bit for an old guy? That Little Bird to come at him got a face full of old man fist. Wasn't there an episode in s2 or 3 with Tywin where it's revealed his old frail man demeanor is just an act? It was one of my favourite, if minor, reveals. E: Ah, it was a deleted scene.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:58
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canepazzo posted:Wasn't there an episode in s2 or 3 with Tywin where it's revealed his old frail man demeanor is just an act? It was one of my favourite, if minor, reveals. If I remember correctly there was a scene at the end of season 1 which showed the same thing, but it was a sexposition scene.
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Jun 27, 2016 13:03
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Ambivalent posted:Yeah, I'm skeptical of any sort of twist or reveal at this point, but it does seem weird that there's just some stammering grunt who comes up to Jaime all 'UH, LORD, THE BLACKFISH HAS DIED IN BATTLE' and then Frey is like 'so i guess the blackfish died to some common footsoldiers' and jaime is like 'i guess so.' And I really adore Clive Russell so it'd be cool if he survived but it's hard to see where or why there would have been a fake out at this point. And with only 12 episodes left, do we have time for a yarn about Blackfish joining the Brotherhood or something Yeah, that seemed odd to me too - I thought the stammering grunt was odd last episode, and I have no idea why they'd feel the need to bring up the Blackfish's death again in this episode if there's nothing more to his story. They also called him a legendary swordsman this episode and commented on how surprising it was for him to die to common footsoldiers, when one of his last lines before his death was "I was never that good with a sword." But like you said, they're going full steam ahead into the last 12 episodes, and I don't know where or why they'd want to jam in another story arc for the Blackfish. After this episode in particular, I am pretty much ambivalent to the rest of the books coming out, or even to the last two seasons of the show. I've seen it said before, but after this season, it's pretty apparent why Gurm has such a hard time writing out this last book. The producers are happy to look at the plot points he's outlined for them (Dany leaves Meereen, Bran becomes the Three Eyed Raven, Jon kills Ramsay and becomes King, etc.) and just pump out scenes showing them happening, whereas Gurm has been torturing himself trying to find organic ways for all these things to happen without ruining the characters he's built or having people react non-sensibly. But now, we know all the plot points too, and the series looks poised to wrap up in a rather predictable fashion -- Dany comes and seizes power, treats with Jon Snow, and kills the White Walkers with her dragons. Sure, there are a bunch of details that we don't really know, but the broad strokes are already there, and now there really isn't anything else for the books to cover that we haven't already seen. At this point I could give a poo poo about Winds of Winter -- I genuinely doubt it will go any further in the plot than this season did, and other than painting a better picture of how our characters might hit their plot points, there's no reason for me to be interested. Hell, at this point I could give a poo poo about A Dream of Spring -- there could be some swerves in the way that no one's guessed, but there only seems to be one real ending possible given the White Walkers and the dragons.
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Jun 27, 2016 13:20
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Okay, so I need to know one thing. Other plot holes be damned, but why did Lancel "One-HP" Lannister decided to chase after a random street urchin running around the city despite being given a direct order from the Pope to not delay and go get the MurderQueen. Seriously, the more I think on it the less sense it makes. He never seen the kid before and never has it ever been even hinted to the faith militant that the kids now serve Q-Burn and Queen by proxy. Comrade Kirov fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 13:27
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From the show thread, this is pretty cool!
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Jun 27, 2016 13:33
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Jon Snow is a passionate, smart, but emotional leader who will often act without thinking when it comes to the ones he loves, leaving others around him to pay the price for his decisions. So he takes after his father.
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Jun 27, 2016 13:47
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Phenotype posted:After this episode in particular, I am pretty much ambivalent to the rest of the books coming out, or even to the last two seasons of the show. I've seen it said before, but after this season, it's pretty apparent why Gurm has such a hard time writing out this last book. The producers are happy to look at the plot points he's outlined for them (Dany leaves Meereen, Bran becomes the Three Eyed Raven, Jon kills Ramsay and becomes King, etc.) and just pump out scenes showing them happening, whereas Gurm has been torturing himself trying to find organic ways for all these things to happen without ruining the characters he's built or having people react non-sensibly. He should just crank it out as a global warming allegory. Everyone's too preoccupied and self-destructive to see the big picture and save the world. Go Team Whitewalker!
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Jun 27, 2016 13:56
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Apart from being murdered I think the real worst thing that happened to Walder Frey this episode was Jaime making GBS threads on him. He sees all his children/grandchildren as fungible resources so he could care less if some of them die. What drives him as a character is the lack of dignity in being someone else's vassal and after spending his entire life to finally be above the Tully's Jaime tells him "you're our bitch now and we won't even bother to be polite with you." It was all for nothing I love that Sansa basically came out and said she hosed up not telling Jon about the vale knights. It made no sense so what can you do other than oopsies I brainfart. I wonder if she told jon she fed Ramsay to dogs or he'll find out when he wants to behead him all official like. I'm only watching to see how the plot ends, nice of them to pack a bunch in however absurdly they do it. As far as wouldn't it be terrible to show people travelling for months, yeah it would but its mega jarring when they just apparate like Harry Potter. The title sequence is showing you a map every week but once you've visited three locations you can fast travel like in Fallout 3 I guess
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Jun 27, 2016 13:56
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Can we get some more appreciation for the sick burns that Olenna laid upon the Sand Snakes? "What's your name again? Barbara?" 
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Jun 27, 2016 14:07
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Ambivalent posted:Her rejection of Tyrion is a bid for approval from Tywin I agree with most of your post, but this is pretty wrong. She hates Tyrion because she blames him for the death of her mother (Oberyn reminisces about the first time they met and tells Tyrion that Cersei said that and hurt baby Tyrion) and because of the Valonquar prophecy. There is the added element that Tyrion is an embarrassment to the Lannister name but that's on top of all the other stuff.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:09
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Anonymous John posted:Can we get some more appreciation for the sick burns that Olenna laid upon the Sand Snakes? "What's your name again? Barbara?" It is funny to see the writers backpedal so hard from "Look at these characters, aren't they awesome?" to "Hahaha, they're so lame, let's have Olenna diss them!"
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Jun 27, 2016 14:16
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Vegetable posted:Lyanna Stark was played by some random Turkish actress named Ozge Gurel. Wonder how they cast these things No she wasn't. I read that rumour as well (it was in an article prior to airing), but in the episode she was played by Aisling Franciosi from The Fall, so I dunno where they got their information from. Also https://twitter.com/AisFranciosi/status/747342019006074880 BreakAtmo fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 14:16
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Tommen died on the way back to his home planet e: It's a bit disappointing how one note Littlefinger is now. He's the most devious man in Westeros, or was, and all he gives a gently caress about is Sansa? Really? I hope he still has some plotting left in him. Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 14:17
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BreakAtmo posted:No she wasn't. I read that rumour as well (it was in an article prior to airing), but in the episode she was played by Aisling Franciosi from The Fall, so I dunno where they got their information from.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:23
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Vegetable posted:Good spot, my bad. I couldn't find info about this episode's actress. I figured it was unusual for a Turkish actress to have an Irish accent. All good, I've watched all of The Fall and still didn't recognise her. On that note, watch The Fall because it's loving good.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:24
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Good episode really. Lots of closure, lots of payoff. I almost shed a tear to finally see Dany sailing to Westeros. We have to thank D&D for that, and forgive all the dumb stuff they wrote. GRRM never took us this far and probably never will And that was some high level teleporting skills Varys exhibited this episode. I think he might be the new Master Teleporter of Westeros, above even LF And for the looks of it, I would say that Qiburn murder children are already more effective assassins than the faceless men. Just 1 stab to take down Lancel, and in the back. loving Waif had to wait her turn and fail to kill her with 5 stabs to the belly. Both forgot to check if the victim was really dead, though
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Jun 27, 2016 14:36
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Best part of the episode for me was definitely this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS-gbqbVd8c
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