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qntm posted:C manages to be pretty horrific despite its lack of ambition. C's greatest strength is also its biggest pain in the rear end. Same with C++ and assembly, really; the direct control over memory is powerful as hell and you can squeeze out every last drop of performance out of the hardware. But holy balls is it easy to get a pointer or memory address error that makes the whole thing come crashing down even if you know what you're doing.
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Jun 26, 2016 22:09
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qntm posted:C manages to be pretty horrific despite its lack of ambition. Try BLISS...
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Jun 26, 2016 22:50
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javascript is the only language where the language gets criticized when the fault lies with the inexperience of the people writing it. "oh man, javascript is so bad but i definitely won't read anything about it and just blame javascript when something bad happens!"
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Jun 26, 2016 22:56
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Nah, every language that gets criticized, from PHP through C++ to Haskell, has people show up to defend it by saying "you're just using it wrong".
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Jun 26, 2016 23:26
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Sinestro posted:C is a lot less ambitious. theyre not really comparable anyway. c's goal was a programming language that could self-host its compiler while simplifying some aspects of direct assembly programming. mumps' goal was to stow a bunch of medical data on a mainframe and do some small amount of processing on it. mumps simpler goals are directly reflected in things like the lack of an inequality operator other than the one that directly mapped to a machine instruction on the pdp7 in the original implementation. cant remember if that's > or <, but for a long time the only way to do >= was do instead use '< (not less than) and poo poo like that. c accomplished basically everything it set out to do. so did mumps, but mumps is an artifact that survived past its peculiar original use case only by the accident of being adopted by a bunch of big emr vendors before there were any better database solutions around for that space whereas c survived because it lets you wring a lot of performance out of your platform while writing small code with (sometimes) provable memory consumption with at least hypothetical portability. obviously modern poo poo like c# or java set out to provide a lot more to the programmer out of the box, but good fuckin' luck writing, for example, a real-time os or a controller for a small embedded device in java or c# without running into issues with memory usage, delays caused by gc, resource usage by the runtime, etc.
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Jun 26, 2016 23:34
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Vanadium posted:Nah, every language that gets criticized, from PHP through C++ to Haskell, has people show up to defend it by saying "you're just using it wrong". There is no right way to use PHP.
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Jun 27, 2016 00:03
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I took the C "pretty horrific" descriptor to be regarding the shockingly high difficulty in avoiding undefined behaviour 
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Jun 27, 2016 01:10
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pokeyman posted:I took the C "pretty horrific" descriptor to be regarding the shockingly high difficulty in avoiding undefined behaviour True enough.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:15
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pokeyman posted:I took the C "pretty horrific" descriptor to be regarding the shockingly high difficulty in avoiding undefined behaviour This is the worst part about c and c++. It seems compiler writers have more sway than language users when it comes to the c/c++ standards.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:15
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HappyHippo posted:This is the worst part about c and c++. It seems compiler writers have more sway than language users when it comes to the c/c++ standards. Because early on, the compilers came first, then the standards largely just documented what they were already doing.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:30
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I remember having an easy time of C in the 90's. Things got sour when I hooked up to the Internet and started discovering all the insane tricks and methods people were using to write real software.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:36
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I think a distinction should be made between C and C++. C was originally kind of intended as a way to write assembly more efficiently, and ended up being quite successful at that goal. It does what it does very well, and it doesn't really try to do much more than that. C++ started with good intentions, was fairly successful at what it was trying to do early on, but since seems to have kind of gone off the rails in trying to keep up with the times.
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Jun 27, 2016 02:44
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Vanadium posted:Nah, every language that gets criticized, from PHP through C++ to Haskell, has people show up to defend it by saying "you're just using it wrong". Even Brainfuck?
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Jun 27, 2016 03:28
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ErIog posted:I think a distinction should be made between C and C++. C was originally kind of intended as a way to write assembly more efficiently, and ended up being quite successful at that goal. It does what it does very well, and it doesn't really try to do much more than that. C is interesting because it just kind of hangs around, bein' c, just kind of doin' it's thing. It's like yo, I'm c, here if you need me but it's cool if you don't. C# is an alright guy. He's my nephew, you know! Does good work. We're proud of him. C++ is Steve Buscemi carrying a skate board. He isn't fooling anybody but is still good at some things so he gets work.
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Jun 27, 2016 03:40
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Why can't browsers just run python.
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Jun 27, 2016 04:05
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TimWinter posted:Why can't browsers just run python. Fuuuuuuuck yooooooou
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Jun 27, 2016 04:06
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I'd rather do work in python than php or javascript. I mean I hate a lot about python but I also like a bunch of it too.
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Jun 27, 2016 04:18
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Looks like you were trying to say 'gently caress you' but the browser is struggling under the weight of loading 3 gigs of some bullshit frontend framework
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Jun 27, 2016 04:19
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xzzy posted:I'd rather do work in python than php or javascript. What do you hate about Python? 
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Jun 27, 2016 04:31
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What do you hate about Python? syntactic spacing is always bad for one
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Jun 27, 2016 05:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What do you hate about Python? The standard library is trash, Python 3 is giant mistake nobody will admit fault for that didn't really fix anything, the wordiness and bizarre implementation of closures makes it hard to write in a functional way...
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Jun 27, 2016 05:33
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TimWinter posted:Why can't browsers just run python. Internet Explorer could for a while.
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Jun 27, 2016 07:41
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The only really bad thing about c is function pointer syntax. Well, and everything in string.h, but you can just ignore that.
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Jun 27, 2016 09:48
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Soricidus posted:The only really bad thing about c is function pointer syntax. Well, and everything in string.h, but you can just ignore that. Implicit conversions, a systems programming language overemphasizing performance,
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Jun 27, 2016 10:29
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Soricidus posted:The only really bad thing about c is function pointer syntax. Well, and everything in string.h, but you can just ignore that. Zero terminated strings are a cancer.
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Jun 27, 2016 11:56
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Soricidus posted:The only really bad thing about c is function pointer syntax. Well, and everything in string.h, but you can just ignore that. The preprocessor, undefined behavior, typedef syntax (and for that matter having both concepts of typedefs and structs rather than unifying them into a single idea), the anemic build systems that inevitably result in people defining compile-time logic using ad-hoc bash scripts,
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Jun 27, 2016 12:54
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Strong Sauce posted:javascript is the only language where the language gets criticized when the fault lies with the inexperience of the people writing it. You may think it's reasonable to have objects in the global namespace have effects on script execution based on magic names that aren't visually cued in any way, and call this opinion "experience", but I don't think it's reasonable, and I call it "brain damage caused by too much Javascript exposure"
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Jun 27, 2016 13:56
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Soricidus posted:The only really bad thing about c is function pointer syntax.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:43
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Gul Banana posted:it's the lack of choice WebAssembly FTW, then?
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Jun 27, 2016 14:56
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Hammerite posted:You may think it's reasonable to have objects in the global namespace have effects on script execution based on magic names that aren't visually cued in any way You mean like the main function? 
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Jun 27, 2016 16:16
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We hear so much about how all these languages suck...so what are y'all's favorite programming languages? And perhaps more importantly, are your favorite languages the ones you actually get to use for any substantial serious work? No "I did a few Project Euler problems in Haskell and really liked it".
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Jun 27, 2016 16:18
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Swift is great and actually useful if you happen to be doing apple stuff. C# has some more visible, probably immortal flaws, but it's also very good.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:22
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:We hear so much about how all these languages suck...so what are y'all's favorite programming languages? And perhaps more importantly, are your favorite languages the ones you actually get to use for any substantial serious work? No "I did a few Project Euler problems in Haskell and really liked it". As far as the actual language goes, C# is quite good. There are some issues with some of the toolchain poo poo that is quite annoying but hopefully with .NET Core coming out some of that will get fixed/simplified.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:25
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F# is a thing of beauty. It's biggest downsides are lack of portability (though that's slowly improving) and a lack of decent tooling. To be fair though, the tooling isn't actively bad, it's just not nearly as good as other .NET languages like C#. It's way better than what you get for most other functional languages.TimWinter posted:Why can't browsers just run python. If we're gonna shake up the front-end language options, can we at least pick a language with type checking? Bognar fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 16:26
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:We hear so much about how all these languages suck...so what are y'all's favorite programming languages? And perhaps more importantly, are your favorite languages the ones you actually get to use for any substantial serious work? No "I did a few Project Euler problems in Haskell and really liked it". whenever i need to bang out something functional c# is excellent. if we're just going arbitrary favorite, i kinda have stockholm syndrome with mumps and find its flaws and weirdness kinda fun.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:28
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HappyHippo posted:You mean like the main function?  Actually I don't really like that it's main() either, for the same reason, but given that you literally can't write Hello World without knowing that the function where execution starts has to be called main(), it's difficult to argue that it's as much of a problem.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:35
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Don't worry I was just joking
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Jun 27, 2016 16:38
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fleshweasel posted:Swift is great and actually useful if you happen to be doing apple stuff. Oh hi, language which treats the first parameter of a function call differently than the rest. Just kidding, I like Swift. But no language is perfect.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:55
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Zopotantor posted:Oh hi, language which treats the first parameter of a function call differently than the rest. And it's fixed in Swift 3, thus making it perfect.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:15
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Coworker didn't understand that returning something in square brackets means that you're returning an array in Ruby, and was confused as to why he had to flatten a 2d array to get his list of hashes.  Also we're having a 30 minute meeting on where to put the "Get Help" button. 
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Jun 27, 2016 18:06
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