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Jerry Manderbilt posted:hell, the fact that a lot of sacramento's eastern burbs are some of the most whitebread parts of the state (placer county is like, orange county's redneck cousin) has to have something to do with this
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Jun 27, 2016 14:23
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Kenning posted:Yeah that was loving stupid and probably part of the reason that the reporting has been over all unsympathetic to the antifa. It was dumb as poo poo, they had bandanas on already and were mad about cameras. That was early in the day before the Nazis showed up. That's one of the problems with decentralized organizing -- you can bring a lot of people but you can't always enforce good strategy. If you create a story involving Neo-Nazis and your group and people are mentioning that your group is lovely then you have hosed up.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:46
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This is a critical time to let fascists know that they aren't welcome and aren't safe. Neo-Nazis don't speak the language of peaceful protest.
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Jun 27, 2016 15:51
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Calling yourselves Antifa just makes me want to support the facists, and I don't know why. It's a dumb name for a movement and it obscures your objective from the people who you need to be making aware of the issues. The average person doesn't know what the gently caress an antifa is and absolutely will not try to figure it out. It just becomes the name of a radical left wing terrorist group to them.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:51
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Boot and Rally posted:If you create a story involving Neo-Nazis and your group and people are mentioning that your group is lovely then you have hosed up. Liberals and peaceniks always trot out the "But wouldn't a PEACEFUL protest have worked better?" line in response to antifa tactics (even though the Nazis brought knives and caused most of the serious injuries), and inevitably you get some number of people saying "See, the leftists are just as bad!" The real fuckup, beyond unnecessarily harassing a reporter early on, was not having a media strategy. Luckily By Any Means Necessary was there and, even though they're sorta preachy and tend to have convoluted chants, they love giving interviews. The only quotes from leftists are from BAMN, while every single report quotes two different TWP members. Ultimately, the goal of this action wasn't really to affect the public perception of radical leftism. It would have been a huge bonus to have put out a coherent message to the press, but ultimately it was about shutting down the Nazis and forcing them on the defensive. I'm not an anarchist and I'm not an antifa regular, but I'm white and most of my good friends are non-white or queer, so I cannot let Nazis speak in public. Their rally was supposed to be about their experiences at Trump rallies. That's not some fringe white nationalist party folks, that's the Republican party. We're not as safe as we think.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:00
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Calling yourselves Antifa just makes me want to support the facists, and I don't know why. It's a dumb name for a movement and it obscures your objective from the people who you need to be making aware of the issues. The average person doesn't know what the gently caress an antifa is and absolutely will not try to figure it out. It just becomes the name of a radical left wing terrorist group to them. I don't think most people understand what fascists are. Or communists or socialists. In fact to a depressingly large voting bloc of Americans all three are interchangeable with liberal.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:02
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Calling yourselves Antifa just makes me want to support the facists, and I don't know why. It's a dumb name for a movement and it obscures your objective from the people who you need to be making aware of the issues. The average person doesn't know what the gently caress an antifa is and absolutely will not try to figure it out. It just becomes the name of a radical left wing terrorist group to them. Feel free to support the fascists if that's your conscience. First amendment etc. If you're comfortable defending Nazis because a leftist group has a name I don't know what to tell you.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:09
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Kenning posted:Liberals and peaceniks always trot out the "But wouldn't a PEACEFUL protest have worked better?" line in response to antifa tactics (even though the Nazis brought knives and caused most of the serious injuries), and inevitably you get some number of people saying "See, the leftists are just as bad!" The real fuckup, beyond unnecessarily harassing a reporter early on, was not having a media strategy. Luckily By Any Means Necessary was there and, even though they're sorta preachy and tend to have convoluted chants, they love giving interviews. The only quotes from leftists are from BAMN, while every single report quotes two different TWP members. If the Nazis are violent monsters eager to throw down (and I don't doubt that they are) would it really be that hard to let them throw the first punch? Mobbing them before they have the chance to say anything probably makes you feel good, but it makes for really lovely messaging and makes it really easy for the usual suspects to say "both sides are bad." What I'm saying is that opposing Nazis is good, I just wish the people doing it weren't also loving morons about it.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:17
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I think the most confusing thing for me are the people who come out of the woodwork howling for fascist blood. I'm not really for kicking skulls into the ground with boots, and so the lines begin to blur quickly for me, as a normie outsider. There's something uncomfortable about people running around going "we gotta be the fascists to beat the fascists" I can't even imagine a real human being identifying as a KKK Nazi Fascist, who wasn't clearly just looking for a fight, and I guess I thought most hate groups weren't really protected under free speech to begin with, so why even bother with these people? All that being said, I understand we live in an era of increasing radicalization, and we have what many claim to be an outright fascist running for president... 
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Jun 27, 2016 17:29
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I understand the concern about messaging, but I always have to remind people that people were satirizing and declaiming Hitler's Nazis in the press right up until the bunker. There were peaceful anti-Nazi protests before they consolidated power. The thing that stopped the original Nazis was the Red Army and nothing else. Antifa aren't the Red Army, but it illustrates the point that sharp confrontation to push Nazis back into the shadows is crucial. The problem with the messaging wasn't what the antifa did -- break up a Nazis rally with some people employing violence -- it was their retreat from media tactics following the event. Also, it's not clear who threw the first punch, but a black man was stabbed right right at the beginning of the confrontation. These were the Golden State Skins as well as the TWP. I don't think they really held back at all.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:39
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To me, the whole thing is ridiculous, because the US is not going to turn into a Nazi Death Camp just because some distasteful people are showing the seedy underbelly of the First Amendment. It's even worse because while some people have been doing this for decades, other people think it's like the groups who blockout the WBC protests with comedy signs or giant obstructions. It's not like the fascists take one side of the place and their opponents the other, and then they just chant things in unison and count numbers to see who "won". It turns into a lovely amateur street fight in a public place in America. That guy at the end of the KCRA video explains a lot: the Black Bloc is loving terrible people who can ruin any goal no matter how noble it might seem. Rather than defend Nazis, though, I see them as a symbol of why free speech is flawed and maybe why we need to have a discussion in this country about Too Much Freedom being a bad thing, and abandoning our insistent belief that freedom always is good and more freedom always is better. The fact that governments have to treat loving Nazis as legitimate a cause for a public rally as anything else is a case of American exceptionalism that should be addressed the hard way: by arguing against free speech and suggesting reforms.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:42
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Kenning posted:Feel free to support the fascists if that's your conscience. First amendment etc. If you're comfortable defending Nazis because a leftist group has a name I don't know what to tell you. Well, if the alternative is supporting an aggressive counterprotest group, yeah, I don't know. Sorry that your group somehow manages to lose a PR warn (and physically violent conflict) against literal facists. My point is that you guys are loving dumb for just assuming the world automatically knows what is going on here. Typical leftist elitism. The average person doesn't have your education or opportunity. loving educate them. Call yourselves what you are: anti-facists. Not antifa. Nobody knows what the gently caress that is. You can't beat the facists on numbers because there are way more racists willing to fight for what they believe in than there are antifacists. That's largely because the majority of people don't even realize that this is a thing that is happening. So, sure. Cling to your stupid name and isolate yourself from the people you need to educate and attract in order for your movement to make a difference. I think this may be the primary reason leftists always loving lose in this country. They're so drat smug about assuming that everybody believes, or even knows about, their cause that they don't have to do a drat thing. Meanwhile, the radical right is constantly "educating" the average person and enticing them to their camp. Political movements are branding, and your little antifa gang is losing the PR war against honest to god nazis because you are too stupid to realize this is marketing. People do not believe nazis exist anymore, so when you are shouting about nazis and facism they just view you as insane leftist nutjobs. The little violent scuffle did more to hurt your image than help it.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:43
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Going around in masks beating people with clubs and attacking press sounds like something a bunch of nazis would do.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:46
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Tuxedo gin, you know the other poster isnt the leader of antifa right? He's just a guy who doesnt like racism and sympathizes with their ideals. While you are sympathizing with violent racists and bigots. A real time nazi apologist.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:47
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i will not encourage anyone to punch a nazi, but if they really must punch a nazi, i will not condemn the action
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Jun 27, 2016 17:49
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Kenning posted:I understand the concern about messaging, but I always have to remind people that people were satirizing and declaiming Hitler's Nazis in the press right up until the bunker. There were peaceful anti-Nazi protests before they consolidated power. The thing that stopped the original Nazis was the Red Army and nothing else. Antifa aren't the Red Army, but it illustrates the point that sharp confrontation to push Nazis back into the shadows is crucial. The problem with the messaging wasn't what the antifa did -- break up a Nazis rally with some people employing violence -- it was their retreat from media tactics following the event. This is 2016 California, not early 20th century Europe, though. So when people use these terms, it creates this vibe of like Military Living History/LARP/Live Roleplay mixed in with unhinged, violent, disaffected people. I guess the thing that weirds me out about it, is you have a group of people who want to kick in skulls with boots, and tell you it's okay, because it's the 'bad guys', which seems like an extremely tenuous and morally shaky ideal to hang ones hat on.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:50
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Shuka posted:Tuxedo gin, you know the other poster isnt the leader of antifa right? He's just a guy who doesnt like racism and sympathizes with their ideals. I know he's not the leader. But he's defending them. I haven't sympathized with the facists at all. But there you go again - criticism of a leftist group, no matter how stupid their actions, is literal support for the facists. How dumb can you guys be? You do realize that this kind of hostility against moderate or uniformed people is what loses you these movements, right?
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Jun 27, 2016 17:51
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I still have yet to see any proof that attacking protesters ever actually gets those protesters to give up and agree with their attackers rather than further entrenching their ideals. Usually when a masked group attacks a protest I am at, I have never later consider that a reason to change my political beliefs.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:52
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I didn't see nazi apologism anywhere in Tuxedo Gin's post. He was being critical of another group of crazy assholes. It's not like if you are critical of one group you are supporting the other. \/\/\/\/\/ Yes. Sanzuo fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 17:52
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Facists are stupid, but antifa is fighting it the wrong way, and they're hurting their cause more than helping it. They assume that they have a blank check and that people will automatically support them because nazis. But that isn't the case. Even in California, right wing populism has a lot of support. They are much better at PR and winning over moderates than the left wing movements are. You know you are doing it wrong when Trump, the Tea Party, and the facists have moderates shaking their heads saying "those crazy leftists are starting violence again".
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Jun 27, 2016 17:56
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Shuka posted:Tuxedo gin, you know the other poster isnt the leader of antifa right? He's just a guy who doesnt like racism and sympathizes with their ideals. I guess you didn't notice the people who didn't like racism were as violent as anyone else. The Nazis got more stabbings in, but they knew going in that they might have to do that. Nazi groups etc apply for public permits and do everything By The Law to goad the anti-racism crowd into violence. They only have to defend themselves, not attack anyone. They don't have to do anything provocative because their message alone provokes for them. In a lot of these cases, the nazis were doing their thing legally, and the anti-hate people break the law to intimidate them or scare them back underground. But nobody wants to deal with the fact that the problem is in the law, because that means constitutional amendments and convincing the country to stop viewing the founders as omniscient.That stuff is hard.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:57
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The other day I was made to cross the beach in front of the SC Boardwalk to get to the pier. It was crowded and gross and I didn't want to do it. I hate crowds and children throwing sand. After awhile I just tried to get with it and appreciate the spectacle. There were so many different kinds of people from all over the world. In the center of it all was a white family, the old beat-up patriarch standing proud and shirtless, a giant swastika tattooed on his round beer gut. It's probably a prison tat. Anyway, never in my life have I seen such a thing so proudly displayed. In all my years born and raised in Sac I have never heard of a white supremacist group acting so openly. I don't like that being racist is okay now, and "PC culture" is being blamed.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:01
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Bast Relief posted:I don't like that being racist is okay now, and "PC culture" is being blamed. Did anyone say that besides the racists themselves? Because no one in this thread has afaik.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:04
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Space-Bird posted:This is 2016 California, not early 20th century Europe, though. So when people use these terms, it creates this vibe of like Military Living History/LARP/Live Roleplay mixed in with unhinged, violent, disaffected people. I was pretty much in this boat all of last night trying to understand why it seemed acceptable for people to beat people into a pulp just because you don't like what they're saying in public. The only responses I ever really got from the people cheerleading the violence is 'Nazi scum don't understand words, just boots - crush their skulls.' The whole thing left me wondering if the die-hard antifa types don't realize how freakishly similar to fascist ideology their behavior is, when it comes to dealing with people they don't like. I am against fascists, but I'm going to be against antifa too if I have to start dodging rocks, pipes and wooden boards because their kill switch got turned on and the only way they know/want to deal with an issue is violence. People are quick to say it's self defense to rush up as a group and mob/beat people but seeing video of riot police bum-rush both male/female protesters(antifa?) who seemed to be dragging/kicking/beating people on the ground doesn't seem like self defense to me. I was getting really tired of it when I started getting people telling me that any random dudes/families or passers-by are somehow complicit and deserving of what they get if they just happened to be anywhere near where counter-protestor types were doing their thing.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:07
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Some people just really like to punch people and who are we to stop them?
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Jun 27, 2016 18:08
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Bast Relief posted:I don't like that being racist is okay now, and "PC culture" is being blamed. If counter-protesting racists was as easy as a big sing-along of We Are The World and clapping together, I'd be all for it. That's what some younger, more naive people expect and instead they get the are wrapped into a fight by the same groups of politicial agitators who turn anti-war protests into scenes of violence and destruction. As noted, the only racists who attend these things are old skinheads who are trying to be made a martyr for their cause, they show up legally but secretly hoping for violent resistance so they can bust people open in self-defense. Their opposition is all too happy to oblige to give them the violent scene they're wishing for, as you've got the Black Bloc and their anarchy protest tactics stirring poo poo on the other side. EDIT: VVVV Arsenic Lupin posted:There are effective nonviolent ways to confront the opposition. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 18:12
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Space-Bird posted:I think the most confusing thing for me are the people who come out of the woodwork howling for fascist blood. I'm not really for kicking skulls into the ground with boots, and so the lines begin to blur quickly for me, as a normie outsider. There's something uncomfortable about people running around going "we gotta be the fascists to beat the fascists" There are effective nonviolent ways to confront the opposition. For instance, in Orlando, theater people dressed as angels (I'm sure this is too twee for you) with wings on their costumes that completely shut out the view of protesters at funerals. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/19/482698337/angels-from-orlandos-theater-community-guard-mourners-from-protesters As I said, I'm sure that's too twee for you, but it was a counterprotest that (A) got substantial news coverage and (B) was favorably received. A counterprotest that doesn't boil down to "one group of violent assholes attacked by another group of violent assholes" is going to convince more people. It depends on whether your goal is to persuade or to break poo poo up. Breaking poo poo up is no doubt fun, but it has exactly as much impact on fascism as writing a strong letter to the New York Times.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:13
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:hell, the fact that a lot of sacramento's eastern burbs are some of the most whitebread parts of the state (placer county is like, orange county's redneck cousin) has to have something to do with this As a newer placer county transplant (from San Jose) this is 100% bro-truck affliction sticker approved and true.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:49
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i remember back in december 06 or so my parents stopped in auburn on the way up to tahoe to get gas i was in a raley's or safeway's or whatever and i felt distinctly uncomfortable; a few white folks were glaring at me
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Jun 27, 2016 19:07
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I think this tacit support of nazi's encourages people to commit hate crimes as they perceive their views as gaining social acceptance. "We forced em to let us march, lets see this thing through." People are threatened, abused, and killed all over america for being poor, ethnic, and otherwise marginalized. And when they fight back they are labeled as wrongdoers, a bad apple, not doing things the right way. Sorry they didn't bring their grievances before a council of affluent white guys who like to boss people around and tell them how to do things. Sorry they didn't ask your permission to fight back. edit- a lot of you guys are cussing and calling posters morons. Why do you think your violent language is any more effective than the violent tactics you argue against. Quite frankly anyone resorting to cussing and calling people retards and morons needs to take a couple moments and find the right words to express themselves. Shuka fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 19:45
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Craptacular! posted:The Nazis got more stabbings in, but they knew going in that they might have to do that. Uh, excuse me? Oh those poor Nazis who stabbed those rowdy lefties were just doing what they had to!
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Jun 27, 2016 19:52
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Shuka posted:I think this tacit support of nazi's encourages people to commit hate crimes as they perceive their views as gaining social acceptance. "We forced em to let us march, lets see this thing through."
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Jun 27, 2016 20:05
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Bast Relief posted:The other day I was made to cross the beach in front of the SC Boardwalk to get to the pier. It was crowded and gross and I didn't want to do it. I hate crowds and children throwing sand. After awhile I just tried to get with it and appreciate the spectacle. There were so many different kinds of people from all over the world. In the center of it all was a white family, the old beat-up patriarch standing proud and shirtless, a giant swastika tattooed on his round beer gut. It's probably a prison tat. Anyway, never in my life have I seen such a thing so proudly displayed. In all my years born and raised in Sac I have never heard of a white supremacist group acting so openly. I don't like that being racist is okay now, and "PC culture" is being blamed. There's no way this isn't a portent. Have you tried checking your tomes for "fat neo nazi belly on peer"? It's no White Heron at Dawn, that's for sure, but my best guess is that you should invest in Eye of Newt Futures.
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Jun 27, 2016 20:25
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Kenning posted:I understand the concern about messaging, but I always have to remind people that people were satirizing and declaiming Hitler's Nazis in the press right up until the bunker. There were peaceful anti-Nazi protests before they consolidated power. The thing that stopped the original Nazis was the Red Army and nothing else. Antifa aren't the Red Army, but it illustrates the point that sharp confrontation to push Nazis back into the shadows is crucial. The problem with the messaging wasn't what the antifa did -- break up a Nazis rally with some people employing violence -- it was their retreat from media tactics following the event. Could you list out tactics that the Red Army used to defeat the Nazis and which ones are necessary to stop modern Nazis? I mean, it wasn't something simple like "respond to violence with violence", right? It was specific actions, losses, and follow-up. Alternatively, again, maybe consider how staggeringly bad a job your group did when they kinda-sorta lost a PR fight to actual Nazis, you know, a group that for the last 25-ish years has been the global go-to for "humans it's ok to violently gun down" in first person shooters and the "hmm maybe I want to win an Academy Award this year by showing how awful they were" subject for film. It's not just "media tactics" that failed, you have to actively gently caress up at every level to get a "hmm maybe both sides are bad" outcome when one side is Nazis.
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Jun 27, 2016 20:34
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This thread got pretty interesting.
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Jun 27, 2016 20:44
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I must respect the decision of the Supreme Court allowing this group (the Nazis) to express their views, even when those views are despicable and ugly as they are in this case. But if such views must be expressed, I am pleased they will not go unanswered. That is why I want to voice my complete solidarity with those citizens who will gather in a peaceful demonstration of their abhorrence of Nazism.
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Jun 27, 2016 20:48
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Shuka posted:edit- a lot of you guys are cussing and calling posters morons. Why do you think your violent language is any more effective than the violent tactics you argue against. Quite frankly anyone resorting to cussing and calling people retards and morons needs to take a couple moments and find the right words to express themselves. The words "gently caress" and "poo poo" and "goddamn" are not violent. Violent language is language that is an active call to violence. Slipping some swears into your speech, which is an extremely common thing to do, is not violent. Knowing the difference is important. This is the cornerstone of free speech. Speech should be free. You shouldn't be protected from scary words and hurt feelings. Free speech can and does restrict blatant calls for violent acts. Policing people's language is the wrong course to take. Language and words themselves are arbitrary by nature. Free speech is a good thing. Don't go after the language you don't like, go after the inherent cause. There's systematic causes that lead to racial disparity in this country, and there are systematic causes that lead to racism. Don't tell people "you can't say this word." Educate them and show them a better way. Policing words is stupid and pointless.
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Jun 27, 2016 20:52
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The racist Nazi narrative is that white people are being oppressed. It is not helpful to lend credence to their narrative. A more effective counterprotest would have been to not show up at all.
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Jun 27, 2016 21:06
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Trabisnikof posted:Did anyone say that besides the racists themselves? Because no one in this thread has afaik. No, just the racists. I didn't intend to imply otherwise. I've heard and seen a lot of crap only recently both in person and on Facebook not only complaining about PC culture infringing on freedom of speech, but also somehow arguing that decades of thinking it's distasteful to be rude to minorities has caused racism. I'm a California girl and am well aware that this place isn't uniformly liberal, but I'm not used to this blatant racist bullshit. It's new to me anyway.
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Jun 27, 2016 23:08
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HereCometheKillBots posted:Uh, excuse me? Oh those poor Nazis who stabbed those rowdy lefties were just doing what they had to! You're misreading me. The Nazis were hoping for violence and came with pocket knives etc. Again, they're looking to martyr themselves. And thanks to a few agitators a number of counter-protestors got stabbed. My only point is we can't have nice things in this country. We can't have a country without Nazi demonstrations because too many idiots think outlawing hate speech would lead us on the road to becoming China instead of Canada or Sweden. And we can't have non-violent counter protests because of assholes who infiltrate them looking to make a violent scene and get innocent counter-demonstrators hurt in the process.
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Jun 27, 2016 23:33
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