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Baxta posted:This is a good statement but "help" needs to be sustainable and not to the detriment of the countries providing said help. There is no endless supply of anything in this universe. I supported Merkel's enthusiastic offers of asylum but was gobsmacked to learn that there was no real plan other than good intentions. What will continue to happen is what is currently happening. EU member states close their borders and accept quotas. Something that should have been done from the start instead of floods of refugees going wherever they want. Systems need to be in place to genuine train refugees and deport economic migrants. This is the core issue. Many of the immigrants are both. They left their war torn hellhole of a country for safety then specifically traveled a quarter of the globe to live off the western european welfare state. Attempt to draw a hard line between these two and you end up at either the naivety of Merkel or the racist views of your average skinhead. But I agree with you. Europe should take in a few in and we can absolutely handle them in small amounts. These people have been through poo poo and the neighboring countries have too many to take care of them properly.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:31
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Pissflaps posted:This tone plays into the hands of Nationalists in the UK and other countries. Deport them all to England then. Put them on a plane and refuse to take them back 
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Jun 28, 2016 11:32
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Pissflaps posted:The 'hardcore English' want Scotland to achieve independence. what do the hardcore Welsh desire?
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Jun 28, 2016 11:48
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Kurtofan posted:what do the hardcore Welsh desire? Intimate relations with a furry animal who goes "baa". Alternatively, just for people to remember they exist. Bad jokes aside, Welsh nationalists are generally more of the SNP ilk than the English Defence League types, though it's also worth saying that there's still plenty of the latter. Nick Griffin, former (do they still exist?) leader of the BNP was Welsh for example.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:51
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Welsh Nationalists want Wales to become a self-sufficient socialist republic. They have no desire to secede immediately but to build Wales up until it can support itself independently but also take part in global trade.
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Jun 28, 2016 12:05
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Pissflaps posted:This tone plays into the hands of Nationalists in the UK and other countries.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:41
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MeLKoR posted:What are the UK nationalists going to do? Leave the EU? Well...yes? And it bolsters similar movements in other countries.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:44
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The EU's biggest problem is that it was enlarged too fast, so having jackass countries leaving is actually a good thing.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:58
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Cat Mattress posted:The EU's biggest problem is that it was enlarged too fast, so having jackass countries leaving is actually a good thing.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:00
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The EU's biggest problem is that it adopted far right-wing economics wholesale. So countries leaving is a good thing. For those countries.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:14
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The countries with the biggest populist problems can't leave the EU, because they are receiving massive amounts of money - the best example for this is Greece. The UK was a special case in this regard and there might be an elite that actually is so deluded that they believe in something akin to American Exceptionalism ("the Empire") so strongly, that they think they can have single market access and other benefits without the perceived downsides. This believe was further fueled by the EU granting the UK all sorts of special privileges.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:15
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Dawncloack posted:The EU's biggest problem is that it adopted far right-wing economics wholesale. So countries leaving is a good thing. For those countries. The UK left to itself will do far worse right wing economics.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:28
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blowfish posted:The UK left to itself will do far worse right wing economics. Oh, I know. But they are one election away of changing course, unlike inside the EU. Also who are we trying to kid here, brexit will not happen, the vote will be twisted, repeated or distorted.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:31
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Dawncloack posted:Oh, I know. But they are one election away of changing course, unlike inside the EU. The Brexit result has emboldened the hard right in the UK while Labour forms a circular firing squad around the closest thing to a leadership figure who is actually on the left. If you don't like right wing capitalism in the UK: now with bonus open race hate! then Brexit was a HUGE gently caress-up. e: And the recession it causes will harm the working class twice as much, while the rich get by just fine, and any future recovery will benefit the working class half as much.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:35
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Dawncloack posted:Oh, I know. But they are one election away of changing course, unlike inside the EU. But nothing about the EU prevented you from electing a social-democratic government. Nothing about the EU prevented you from nationalizing British Rail, strengthening unions, lowering tuition fees, increasing benefits to families with children or any other sane and good thing that you can think of. What exactly do you think the EU is? The working class is now going to be even more distracted with immigrants/young (hot  ) unemployed Arabic males/polish vermin/etc. instead of dealing with any real problems.
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Jun 28, 2016 16:44
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I dunno, my friend, this is what I'd have to answer.waitwhatno posted:But nothing about the EU prevented you from electing a social-democratic government. waitwhatno posted:nationalizing British Rail waitwhatno posted:strengthening unions waitwhatno posted:Lowering tuition fees waitwhatno posted:increasing benefits to families with children or any other sane and good thing that you can think of. waitwhatno posted:What exactly do you think the EU is? waitwhatno posted:The working class is now going to be even more distracted with immigrants/young (hot
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Jun 28, 2016 17:39
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Dawncloack posted:I dunno, my friend, this is what I'd have to answer. Congratulations on winning a symbolic victory against capitalism that empowered the hard right, and splintered the left, and legitimized mass race hate, and will cause a recession that will disproportionately gently caress the working class over even more than they already are. 
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Jun 28, 2016 17:55
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Dawncloack posted:I dunno, my friend, this is what I'd have to answer. From your link: " It would be hyperbole to say that all efforts to renationalise the railways would be blocked by the EU, but it would be equally naïve to dismiss the problem." Dawncloack posted:Except the Europe 2020 strategy ("the falling of the social fig leaf" if you listen to that bunch of radical rabble at the London School of Economics) , and before that, the Lisbon strategy. There is nothing legally binding about the Europe 2020 strategy, like there was nothing binding about its predecessor the Lisbon Strategy. The effects of Europe 2020 are marginal and nothing about the way it works stops member states from doing what they want. In fact, the real problem is that the policing of budgetary policy is far stricter than that of EU growth and social investment policy (although even in that area no sanctions have been issued for breaking the rules yet either, though it seems that soon will change). Also, even now that Europe 2020 is integrated into the European Semester (which includes budgetary policy surveillance), depending on the study you read only 29% or 40% of the EU's recommendations get acted upon. What's more is that most other member states at least pretend to take the whole European surveillance of budget and economic policy somewhat seriously. In the UK, nobody cares, particularly since it isn't subject to the Stability Pact. Everything that happened with regard to budgetary economic policy in the UK is almost entirely the result of choices made by its own governments, whether of the Third-Way neoliberal or of the Conservative assholery variety. I have a lot of time for Richard Hyman too, but he was actually described as "a radical firebrand" early in his career, and as the "unofficial founder of the Marxist perspective on industrial relations." source (.pdf. This is not to discredit his argument (although it is really out of date - a lot's changed since 2011), but this isn't some totally neutral observer we're talking about. Just because it's called the London School of Economics doesn't mean it can't be left-wing (also, it would actually be very sad if the Left gave up on the economics discipline and just implicitly assumed that economists can't be left-wing). Dawncloack posted:Except the "stability pact" tying the hands of those governments and the ECB telling that country to lower salaries (eg. like in Spain) I happen to think the ECB went way beyond its mandate on that one, but for Spain too , as a result of the implosion of its real estate bubble, the choice was either to leave the euro and thus cut the purchasing power of salaries through external devaluation, or to engage in internal devaluation and cut wages directly. Also, the deficits run by Spain since 2009 have been so large that you could almost legitimately ask the question whether it was even constrained by the stability pact in its response to the crisis (look at the chart here and remember that the limit's supposed to be 3%). Dawncloack posted:Except the Bologna process chopping degrees in two and calling the second part "masters degree". What does this have to do with tuition fees? Dawncloack posted:Bailouts for French and German banks with Greek and Spanish money Uh, what? It was the French and German banks who - very unwisely- lent the money to Greece and Spain in the first place! And as much as the bailouts saved French and German banks, they also saved the domestic Greek and Spanish banking industries from complete destruction. Dawncloack posted:An technocratic organization devoted to the "Markets über alles principle that, ocassionaly, bails out big companies and banks from trouble by dumping it on the working class, preferably of a different country than the one where the troubled company is. (See the WV scandal, the Bailouts for French and German banks with Greek and Spanish money) The EU's objectives are very much dependent on what the member states want them to be. Don't give up hope yet.
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Jun 28, 2016 18:38
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Dawncloack posted:The EU's biggest problem is that it adopted far right-wing economics wholesale. So countries leaving is a good thing. For those countries. The EU's biggest problem is that it adopted far right-wing economics wholesale. So countries leaving would be a good thing. For those countries. If their politicians weren't the same as the ones in Brussels.
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Jun 29, 2016 00:58
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Riso posted:Doesn't Spain have 50% youth unemployment? No good. I've known too many Spaniards.
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Jun 29, 2016 01:03
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GreyjoyBastard posted:No good. I've known too many Spaniards. Are you doing the American thing where you confuse Spain with South America and Mexico or are you just jealous of siesta time?
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Jun 29, 2016 01:23
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MeLKoR posted:The EU's biggest problem is that it adopted far right-wing economics wholesale. So countries leaving would be a good thing. For those countries. If their politicians weren't the same as the ones in Brussels. Also if the global economy wasn't a house of cards right now.
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Jun 29, 2016 01:26
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What, like it hasn't always been just that?
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Jun 29, 2016 07:26
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Pluskut Tukker posted:(also, it would actually be very sad if the Left gave up on the economics discipline and just implicitly assumed that economists can't be left-wing). An economist cannot be left-wing and influential. If your economic thesis can be summarized as "poor people just need to git gud  " then you're going to be on TV 24/7.
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Jun 29, 2016 08:06
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Yeah. Keynes has had no lasting influence, and in more current news nobody was interested in Picketty's book or theories.
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Jun 29, 2016 08:47
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Who the gently caress is Marx
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Jun 29, 2016 09:26
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Shazback posted:Yeah. Keynes has had no lasting influence, and in more current news nobody was interested in Picketty's book or theories. Not as much as Jean Tirole, to compare him with another economist from the same country. Picketty argues for a global tax on wealth, any sign of this ever happening? YF-23 posted:Who the gently caress is Marx Oh yeah, sure, Marxism is really what mainstream economics are all about in 2016. It's definitely a bunch of Marxists that are presiding over the IMF, World Bank, ECB, and so on.
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Jun 29, 2016 09:32
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You said left-wing and influential, so either you are moving the goalposts something fierce or you're using "influential" to mean something other than what it means.
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Jun 29, 2016 09:49
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Cat Mattress posted:Not as much as Jean Tirole, to compare him with another economist from the same country. Picketty argues for a global tax on wealth, any sign of this ever happening? Right, unless every single one of Piketty's policy prescriptions is adopted we can't call him influential. Cat Mattress posted:Oh yeah, sure, Marxism is really what mainstream economics are all about in 2016. It's definitely a bunch of Marxists that are presiding over the IMF, World Bank, ECB, and so on. The problem is that there's economics as a research discipline and "economics" as it's understood in politics and the media (and the IMF is of course a political institution). Under Strauss-Kahn and Lagarde, the IMF research department however has actually produced a good amount of research that's to the left of the past political consensus, for instance with papers arguing that excessive inequality is economically harmful, and that excessive financialization of an economy reduces growth, and it's also asking that part of Greece's debt should be forgiven. As for the World Bank, here's its current chief economist: quote:One of the central tenets of mainstream economics is Adam Smith's proposition that, given certain conditions, self-interested behavior by individuals leads them to the social good, almost as if orchestrated by an invisible hand. This deep insight has, over the past two centuries, been taken out of context, contorted, and used as the cornerstone of free-market orthodoxy. In Beyond the Invisible Hand, Kaushik Basu argues that mainstream economics and its conservative popularizers have misrepresented Smith's insight and hampered our understanding of how economies function, why some economies fail and some succeed, and what the nature and role of state intervention might be. Comparing this view of the invisible hand with the vision described by Kafka--in which individuals pursuing their atomistic interests, devoid of moral compunction, end up creating a world that is mean and miserable--Basu argues for collective action and the need to shift our focus from the efficient society to one that is also fair . And one of the World Bank's previous chief economists was of course Joseph Stiglitz. So the problem is more that what actual economics says doesn't filter through to the public. Economics has plenty of potential to be used as an argument for a more left-wing politics.
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Jun 29, 2016 10:12
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I mean something that is currently influencing policies and being presented as True And Accurate by medias that report on these issues. Keynes and Marx are long dead, they were influential in the past but nothing remains of that. The economics discourse is still about reducing national debt through austerity, shrinking the public sector because public sector is bad and wrong, privatizing everything publicly-owned because private sector is cool and good, reducing the cost of labor because workers are just so drat expensive, increasing worker productivity because workers are just so drat lazy, deregulation because any sort of regulation was only ever taken out of spite against wealth creators, free trade with everyone because protectionism is bad so there shouldn't be any tariff against countries which practice social and environmental dumping, and so on. Economists who criticize neoliberalism can just as well piss in a violin, they'll have more of an impact on the world this way. Pluskut Tukker posted:The problem is that there's economics as a research discipline and "economics" as it's understood in politics and the media (and the IMF is of course a political institution). Under Strauss-Kahn and Lagarde, the IMF research department however has actually produced a good amount of research that's to the left of the past political consensus, for instance with papers arguing that excessive inequality is economically harmful, and that excessive financialization of an economy reduces growth, and it's also asking that part of Greece's debt should be forgiven. As for the World Bank, here's its current chief economist: The IMF is a perfect example of that. Its research arm will publish a paper demonstrating that policy A is bad, has historically always been bad, and that it should never again be practiced anywhere. And then its political arm will come up to a country needing its help and say "we'll give you money only if you implement policy A". Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 10:21
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Then your problem isn't with economics, but with the media.
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Jun 29, 2016 10:22
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Then your problem isn't with economics, but with the media. And the politicians.
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Jun 29, 2016 10:24
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The issue is that people like Piketty propose completely unworkable policies while someone like Tirole worked on a very small, very practical field of economic theory. If there were a left-wing economist who would come up with a proposal that is not politically toxic, they would have massive influence. But all they come up with is "redistribute wealth" on a global scale.
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Jun 29, 2016 10:33
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I too ignore facts and experts when they are politicaly toxic --that British guy that doesnt need experts.
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Jun 29, 2016 10:40
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http://www.ip-watch.org/2016/06/29/national-parliaments-not-needed-for-ceta-european-commission-president-juncker-says/ You know this is the poo poo you could brexit about. quote:European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said today that the European Union would not include national parliaments of EU member states in the final decision on the Canada-EU Trade Agreement (CETA). Juncker’s CETA statement was made during the post-Brexit meeting of EU heads of state in Brussels today (28 June), several German newspapers reported quoting the German News Agency (DPA). I hope Gabriel for once has the balls and follows through.
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Jun 29, 2016 13:08
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The Real Foogla posted:http://www.ip-watch.org/2016/06/29/national-parliaments-not-needed-for-ceta-european-commission-president-juncker-says/ Well this is exactly what the EU parliament is for. Too bad it has been neglected and is now kinda toothless.
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Jun 29, 2016 13:18
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Baxta posted:Are you doing the American thing where you confuse Spain with South America and Mexico or are you just jealous of siesta time? He's doing the thing where he quotes a line from a famous movie.
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Jun 29, 2016 15:47
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blowfish posted:Well this is exactly what the EU parliament is for. Article 207(c) of the Lisbon treaty. Yeah that's right kids, anything the executive arm wants done, it just puts it in a trade agreement, and the legislative arm doesn't even get consulted.
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Jun 29, 2016 18:25
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Dawncloack posted:It's not neglected and toothless, it's pointless. When it comes to trade agreements, the EC and the Council decide without even asking the EP its opinion. It's like this by design. So turn it into a proper parliament, whereby it becomes not-toothless.
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Jun 29, 2016 19:00
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blowfish posted:So turn it into a proper parliament, whereby it becomes not-toothless. But then the nameless unaccountable bureaucrats lose power. And you get into the whole problem of unequal representation of people by each MEP
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Jun 29, 2016 19:02
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