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Ice To Meet You posted:They should have added another ending where Shepard says "wait, if you're the Citadel, then if I blow up the Citadel you die too" and the kid says "No you can't do that" and then the final boss of the game is you fighting off 500 Keepers to make it to the big red self destruct button.
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Jun 29, 2016 10:09
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Lt. Danger posted:Okay? I'm not really certain what argument is being made here or by others in the thread.
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Jun 29, 2016 10:29
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Lt. Danger posted:Okay? I'm not really certain what argument is being made here or by others in the thread. It's that the game's take seems to be that that the parents are almost always to blame and in the wrong, and often that they had it coming when shepard kills them with the murder pistol. At the end your choices are to murder your creations in the billions, keep them in line forever with a very big stick, or synthesis... ...which, yeah, I guess is supposed to be reconciliation. Or TL:DR is that the ending says the children need to be kept on a leash while the rest of the series says that the parents do.
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Jun 29, 2016 13:27
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The Mass Effect series is an extended metaphor for one's reluctance to accept the responsibilities of parenthood. Shepard becomes impregnated by the Prothean beacon and must bring her secret knowledge into the world. Throughout her travels she reviews the other options society presents to avoid having a child, in the form of contraception (genophage), abortion (reapers), or giving her child up to adoption (collectors). Finally with the aid of the galaxy, she helps to construct a massive phallic instrument to impregnate the flower-like Citadel, which gives birth to a starchild who allows her to see the outcome of her actions. She either accepts this responsibility and becomes the Galactic Mother, or selfishly kills her child in the womb so that she can continue living her hedonistic lifestyle.
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Jun 29, 2016 13:45
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Strategic Tea posted:It's that the game's take seems to be that that the parents are almost always to blame and in the wrong, and often that they had it coming when shepard kills them with the murder pistol. Actually I think the games split pretty equally between disobedient children and cannibalistic parents: Maelon, Kolyat, Morinth, Sidonis; Ronald Taylor, Henry Lawson, Rael'Zorah, The Illusive Man. In larger conflicts, both creator and created are at fault: the salarians and krogan, the quarians and geth. The Reapers themselves are an amalgam of both sides - synthetic and organic, the technology of the future from billions of years in the past, creatures that both define and destroy each galactic cycle.
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Jun 29, 2016 14:00
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Mass Effect is so freaking good.
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Jun 29, 2016 14:13
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this new game cannot come fast enough y'all
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Jun 29, 2016 14:16
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Unfortunately it's looking like Andromeda is going to be really bad (the first bad Mass Effect game, because all of them are awesome).
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Jun 29, 2016 14:18
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hobbesmaster posted:Its best not to do anything with Invisible War. Invisible War is the best rear end in a top hat physics game I've ever played.
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Jun 29, 2016 14:44
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Rhjamiz posted:If it is in all other ways indistinguishable from a self-aware being, then practically speaking whether or not it has a soul is immaterial; murdering it would be wrong. On what basis is a quarian self aware that a geth doesn't pass? Geth have the appearance of self awareness and self determination. A Geth is "born" completely self aware, and is entirely reliant on the rest of the Geth for its own intelligence. It also needs hive mind consensus to function. A Quarian will not get more stupid if you kill other Quarians. Tali chooses to jump off a cliff when the other Quarians die. Legion does not choose to die if the other Geth are killed, he simply does.
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Jun 29, 2016 14:47
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I cannot believe I'm going to let myself get dragged into a discussion about ME3's ending again, butSubponticatePoster posted:It's not though. The Leviathans created the Reapers because they hadn't yet seen a situation where organics and synthetics could coexist so they made the Reapers. Because they're bad at coding, the Reapers themselves decided the only way to solve the problem was to start wiping everything out in 50,000 years. Their artificial timeline (you've got 50k years) fucks everything up. So it boils down to one of three possibilities: - the Leviathans concluded that organics and AI living together is a guaranteed disaster in the making, and hardwired this assumption into the Catalyst AI, meaning that it must treat "organic + AI = death" as written in stone - the Catalyst AI was merely given input and by itself arrived at the conclusion that organics and AI cannot be trusted together, and has presumably seen its conclusion vindicated again and again over the course of millions of years - it is not relevant why the Catalyst AI created the Reapers, all that matters is that this supposed solution to the problem itself proves that AI will be the death of organics one way or another (Aside from the fact that it seems like a truism to conclude that an AI, if left unchecked, will inevitably go far beyond its organic masters and the latter will become powerless against it - unless, perhaps, they sacrifice their own biological limitations in exchange for technology, turning themselves into synthetic beings and in a sense ending their own species.)
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Jun 29, 2016 15:01
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Let's just all agree that no game should ever present a "three choices" ending. Rather it should organically arrive at one of these choices based on your actions and dialogue choices throughout the game. Seriously, both Mass Effect and Deus Ex: HR did this poo poo and were critically panned for doing so to the story. Like, I just spent 90 hours weaving this story for my Shepard only for the game to tell me that it 'doesn't matter, now chose a pre-made ending.' Also, there is no right ending. Even if we're all synthetics at the end, it doesn't stop different factions of synthetics from having different ideologies to war over. Joker's hat for synthetic president 2016!
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Jun 29, 2016 15:40
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exquisite tea posted:The Mass Effect series is an extended metaphor for one's reluctance to accept the responsibilities of parenthood. Shepard becomes impregnated by the Prothean beacon and must bring her secret knowledge into the world. Throughout her travels she reviews the other options society presents to avoid having a child, in the form of contraception (genophage), abortion (reapers), or giving her child up to adoption (collectors). Finally with the aid of the galaxy, she helps to construct a massive phallic instrument to impregnate the flower-like Citadel, which gives birth to a starchild who allows her to see the outcome of her actions. She either accepts this responsibility and becomes the Galactic Mother, or selfishly kills her child in the womb so that she can continue living her hedonistic lifestyle. You are the best poster itt currently and you deserve a medal
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Jun 29, 2016 15:41
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Counter argument: all posters ITT suck and the thread is terrible.
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Jun 29, 2016 15:53
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exquisite tea posted:The Mass Effect series is an extended metaphor for one's reluctance to accept the responsibilities of parenthood. Shepard becomes impregnated by the Prothean beacon and must bring her secret knowledge into the world. Throughout her travels she reviews the other options society presents to avoid having a child, in the form of contraception (genophage), abortion (reapers), or giving her child up to adoption (collectors). Finally with the aid of the galaxy, she helps to construct a massive phallic instrument to impregnate the flower-like Citadel, which gives birth to a starchild who allows her to see the outcome of her actions. She either accepts this responsibility and becomes the Galactic Mother, or selfishly kills her child in the womb so that she can continue living her hedonistic lifestyle.  I would also add abandonment (quarians & geth) kalel fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 16:08
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Turdis McWordis posted:Counter argument: all posters ITT suck and the thread is terrible. If you don't like Mass Effect why are you here?
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Jun 29, 2016 16:11
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I like Mass Effect but I don't like jerks who tell other people they made a "wrong" choice when it's really a choice they don't like.
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Jun 29, 2016 16:15
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SgtSteel91 posted:I like Mass Effect but I don't like jerks who tell other people they made a "wrong" choice when it's really a choice they don't like. All choices should be made with proper oversight. Shepard didn't have the authority to act independently in that matter. You don't get to rewrite everything's dna and then call them jerks when they ask you why you did it.
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Jun 29, 2016 16:22
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If destroy didn't have that arbitrary "kill all geth and Edi" tacked on there wouldn't even be a discussion as everyone would just pick that, they literally had to put that bit there so it's not objectively the "good" ending and has some downside compared to the other two.
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Jun 29, 2016 17:21
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sassassin posted:All choices should be made with proper oversight. Shepard didn't have the authority to act independently in that matter. Ha jokes on them. You can't bitch to me, I died doing it assholes! Shepard out!
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Jun 29, 2016 17:26
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IMO, Destroy and Control work pretty well as the logical endpoint of the Paragon and Renegade viewpoints: Control: Shepard, Space Messiah becomes Shepard, Space God. The technology of the enemy is repurposed for the cause of good (cf. Maelon's research, the Geth implants), the enemy is spared and embraced as part of the solution, it's probably an objectively better outcome but isn't as satisfying Destroy: Shepard, the ruthless soldier without equal, rejects reconciliation and makes the ultimate sacrifice (galactic chaos of indeterminate duration) in order to achieve the complete destruction of their enemies. Of course Shepard surviving doesn't really fit with this, but I guess we can arbitrarily kill the Geth and EDI This isn't a particularly deep analysis, not least since they're literally colour-coded that way, but I do wonder how the ending would have been received if those had been the only choices, rather than a bizarre third option outside the game's well-existing moral framework. Like, how do people feel about the first game's ending? You're also presented with 3 poorly-explained choices, but they fit much better into the themes and established morality of the game.
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Jun 29, 2016 17:40
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Having just completed ME1 again for the first time in yeas, I can safely say that the entire sequence after putting down Saren's horrifically reanimated corpse constitutes my second favourite moment in the series. My number one favourite moment, obviously, is finding out that Conrad Verner's actually a genius and that obsessively surveying all of ME1's heightmap planets was not at all a complete waste of time.
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Jun 29, 2016 17:43
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I think if nothing else it's because you're playing a soldier and you get a military decision on 'what will you sacrifice' of the same sort you made on the main three planets.
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Jun 29, 2016 17:47
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I think ME1 is the only game where the "Renegade" option isn't the obviously correct choice. The Ascension has a crew of 10,000 members and more firepower than an entire fleet; saving it is the correct choice even by cold utilitarian logic. Letting the Council die out of petty spite is not only a monumentally stupid decision, it also doesn't really jive with the idea that Red and Blue Shepard are both still heroes.
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Jun 29, 2016 17:59
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Kajeesus posted:I think ME1 is the only game where the "Renegade" option isn't the obviously correct choice. The Ascension has a crew of 10,000 members and more firepower than an entire fleet; saving it is the correct choice even by cold utilitarian logic. Letting the Council die out of petty spite is not only a monumentally stupid decision, it also doesn't really jive with the idea that Red and Blue Shepard are both still heroes. Also, are you honestly suggesting that at the end of ME2, handing over the Collector base and baby Terminator Reaper's remains to TIM is the obviously correct thing to do??
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Jun 29, 2016 18:09
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It doesn't end up doing anything so it's moot, but I could see an alternative take where giving the reaper corpse to cerberus (along with some actual choices in M3) is what eventually unlocks the control ending.
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Jun 29, 2016 18:14
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The entire endgame of ME1 is fantastic. Actually the beginning is great too, especially when you're new to the series. The middle parts are also really cool now that I think about it. So what I'm saying is, Mass Effect is a great game
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Jun 29, 2016 18:16
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Avalerion posted:It doesn't end up doing anything so it's moot
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Jun 29, 2016 18:22
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Mass Effect 3: It Doesn't End Up Doing Anything So It's Moot
Pattonesque fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 18:26
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Sombrerotron posted:The choice is presented as A) throwing lots of human lives at the geth to save the Destiny Ascension and the Council or B) ignoring the Destiny Ascension to preserve as many ships as possible to take on Sovereign. If anything, the Renegade option seems like the more sensible one. It makes sense the way it's presented in-game, but if you stop and think about it, you're sacrificing a handful of ships (8, it's revealed in ME2) to save a ship with the crew, armaments and equipment of several hundred cruisers, which is also the Flagship of Space Democracy and contains the Space Presidents. Sombrerotron posted:Also, are you honestly suggesting that at the end of ME2, handing over the Collector base and baby Terminator Reaper's remains to TIM is the obviously correct thing to do?? No, the correct thing is to not blow up a bastion of lost and advanced technology and quite possibly a cache of cultural artifacts. The fact that the only way to do this is by giving Cerberus uncontested access to the site is a fault of Bioware's writing.
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Jun 29, 2016 18:38
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Milky Moor posted:Fifth film is being worked on. You left out the best part. Prime is cursed by Merlin to become a human, played by Dwayne Johnson. The curse can only be broken when Prime recovers Excalibur.
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Jun 29, 2016 18:38
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Good to see the rock getting cast in more comedies.
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Jun 29, 2016 18:46
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being the Rock really isn't a curse though
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Jun 29, 2016 18:47
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nopants posted:You left out the best part. While that does sound really rad I can't help but imagine if instead Optimus was turned into Peter Cullen
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Jun 29, 2016 18:48
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Sombrerotron posted:Granted, but that's hindsight. Within the context of ME2, the Renegade option can only be considered "correct" if you somehow trust TIM and Cerberus to handle all this Reaper technology with some sense and responsibility. And if you are not worried at all about it indoctrinating them wholesale (which, also in hindsight, seems like a pretty valid loving concern). Giving the Collector Base to TIM is still a weak Renegade choice because a true rogue Shepster would probably just wanna keep the base for xirself. Anyway it barely affects anything in ME3 minus a few war assets that don't end up being a huge deal at all so you might as well just blow it up, it's cooler and you get more satisfying dialogue that way.
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Jun 29, 2016 18:50
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Miranda gets her one cool line out of blowing it up, too. "Consider this my resignation  "
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Jun 29, 2016 19:13
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Kajeesus posted:It makes sense the way it's presented in-game, but if you stop and think about it, you're sacrificing a handful of ships (8, it's revealed in ME2) to save a ship with the crew, armaments and equipment of several hundred cruisers, which is also the Flagship of Space Democracy and contains the Space Presidents. quote:No, the correct thing is to not blow up a bastion of lost and advanced technology and quite possibly a cache of cultural artifacts. The fact that the only way to do this is by giving Cerberus uncontested access to the site is a fault of Bioware's writing. Sovereign reveals in ME1 that the Reapers have left their own technology behind for future space-faring species to eventually find, so that their technology will develop along the same, predictable lines. Legion makes a point of explaining that relying on given technology limits your perspective, and that it is preferable to find technological solutions on your own. In ME1, the phenomenon of Reaper indoctrination is introduced and shown to be insidious and extremely dangerous. In ME2, we find out that even a dead Reaper and Reaper artifacts (cf. Arrival) can indoctrinate people around it. In ME3 (assuming that Shepard can magically look into the future), it becomes obvious that it was a very poor decision on Cerberus' part to be heavily involved with Reaper technology. Everything within ME1 and ME2 (and perhaps even moreso within ME3) suggests that anything to do with the Reapers is bad news and you should stay the hell away from it. Also, Mordin states plainly at one point in ME2 that the Collectors are little more than worker bees for the Reapers, with no culture of their own. Aside maybe from historical records (though why the Collectors would have those, I have no idea), what reason is there to believe their base holds anything of cultural value at all? And finally: the choice is blowing up the base (Paragon) or giving it to Cerberus (Renegade). If you also think it is not a good to give it to Cerberus, then Renegade is by definition not the right thing to do. exquisite tea posted:Giving the Collector Base to TIM is still a weak Renegade choice because a true rogue Shepster would probably just wanna keep the base for xirself. Anyway it barely affects anything in ME3 minus a few war assets that don't end up being a huge deal at all so you might as well just blow it up, it's cooler and you get more satisfying dialogue that way. EDIT: Coughing Hobo posted:Miranda gets her one cool line out of blowing it up, too. "Consider this my resignation Sombrerotron fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 19:13
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Kajeesus posted:So is the Starkid a broken AI that is incapable of not committing genocide even though that violates the spirit of its prime directive, or is it a rational actor with perfect judgment that is based on knowledge it's just not particularly inclined to discuss with you? I don't see how it can be both. You never had your parents tell you the right thing, you asked why, and they said "Because I'm your parent, that's why"? It doesn't have any obligation to tell Shep the personal histories of every cycle that came before. It told you what you needed to know to make an adult decision: organics and synthetics are incapable of being at peace. Full stop. Shep (and those here) can scream about the Whys of it and argue about how they are Special Snowflakes (because they got the Geth and Quarians to stop fighting for five minutes) until they're blue in the face, but the fact remains that organics and synthetics can't exist without war in the ME universe. Dad told us.
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Jun 29, 2016 19:45
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The catalyst arrives at its conclusion because it's a crazy machine god. It doesn't have to be true and it could just be the result of faulty programming due to some lazy Leviathan programmer cutting corners to go to lunch faster and thus screwing the entire galaxy in the process.
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Jun 29, 2016 19:56
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exquisite tea posted:It doesn't have to be true and it could just be the result of faulty programming due to some lazy Leviathan programmer cutting corners to go to lunch faster and thus screwing the entire galaxy in the process. When the folks who created the Reapers tell you something, and the Reapers themselves say the same thing, and your friend from the previous cycle says the same thing (remember what was happening while the Reapers invaded the Protheans? A organic/synthetic war), the "it might not be true" is a non-starter. I'm guessing your take on the Mass Effect series is that it's a super-long tern YouTube prank on Shep?
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Jun 29, 2016 20:44
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