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Internet Kraken posted:That seems rather odd. I didn't think flayed ghosts were even on the normal dungeon spawn list. They start showing up on D:18. (Which is to say, only as OODs spawns.) Seeing one that early is pretty surprising, but I'm told that ~2500 turns on a single floor is when the game starts going really crazy with OOD spawns. Hurry up already! Haifisch posted:Having recently won an AE, I have to say that static discharge is amazing if you luck into early relec... Static discharge is also quite strong even without relec. it just doesn't ever do much damage to the caster. Chain lightning actually fills a pretty different niche from static discharge. it's most useful as an extremely high damage short-mid range single-target spell. Like crystal spear, without the missing. It's very much the poison arrow of extended: one cast tends to cause enemies to cease to exist. (not that poison arrow is bad in extended, but it does fall off somewhat from its glorious three-rune power...)
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Jun 29, 2016 21:22
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Haifisch posted:It seems like too fundamental a part of crawl strategy to remove easily, let alone without making the game a lot harder, less fun, and less involving actual skill. It'd be like removing LOS management or the ability to teleport. quote:Removing things because they were a viable tactic is dumb, and really needs a better justification than "I don't like it" or "it's good enough that most players use it."
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Jun 29, 2016 22:04
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Wasn't the removal of rMut "I don't like it and it's good enough most players use it"?
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Jun 29, 2016 22:10
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I'm never quite sure if (a) you guys really mean what you say and (b) if you honestly expect answers.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:12
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There are already various monster/level layouts that punish luring and running or make it more difficult. I'm not sure what kind of response you're expecting if you don't even put forth an idea but just say something is bad without explaining why. Is charging in and fighting everything at once supposed to be the ideal playstyle for every single combo? That seems silly. dpeg posted:I'm never quite sure if (a) you guys really mean what you say and (b) if you honestly expect answers. If you're not going to actually engage in a discussion then why are you posting in the first place? And yes we mean what we say when we talk about the current mutation system being bad. Its been explained why I dunno how many times.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:15
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It's because you weren't saying "interesting" enough. You have to know the right passphrase.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:16
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dpeg posted:I'm never quite sure if (a) you guys really mean what you say and (b) if you honestly expect answers. I would actually legitimately like to know, as the change was initially presented as part of part of a larger reform. Even then, people said "Why don't they implement the reform and the rMut removal at the same time?", there was no answer for that beyond it being complex. Now there's no actual reform (beyond slightly increasing the spawn rate of cMut), and no explanation for why rMut was a problem beyond Devs didn't like people using it. Is there an answer beyond " BECAUSE gently caress YOU, THAT'S WHY!"? The fact that goons are the only ones still being vocal about it isn't an answer to the question itself.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:22
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When should I be training up off-core skills like Fighting, Spellcasting, dodginess & armour? Let's say I'm a Draconian Punch Wizard ("transmuter") and I eventually want to turn into big papa dragon and stomp on everything. What's a basic road-map for when I should have which skills turned on for training up? Everything on at once doesn't seem to work well.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:34
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dpeg posted:Lots of words. Less fun even! You like luring, yes?
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Jun 29, 2016 22:49
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I will not talk about luring here, this does not seem to be a good place to discuss something that far off. I replied to Haifisch the way I did because his reply was void of content, and I wanted to emphasise that. (My reply to that was also void of content, of course. I can roll along with the best of 'em!)Zaodai posted:I would actually legitimately like to know, as the change was initially presented as part of part of a larger reform. Even then, people said "Why don't they implement the reform and the rMut removal at the same time?", there was no answer for that beyond it being complex. Now there's no actual reform (beyond slightly increasing the spawn rate of cMut), and no explanation for why rMut was a problem beyond Devs didn't like people using it. 1. Crawl's mutations are sometimes interesting. 2. This makes mutating monsters potentially interesting. 3. Providing an item that disables this mechanic is not a good idea. 4. Even worse if you can carry it around with you all the time and only swap in if needed. In other words, rMut completely disabled a potentially good mechanic. In a token gesture of courtesy, generation rate of !cMut was increased, but I am not sure if that was necessary. You may think that you are entitled to a 100% mutation free game. We think that it is much better if (bad) mutations actually get to change your game occasionally. For this to happen, rMut had to go. I can see why some think that certain mutations are too crippling. Generally mentioned are Rage Addiction and Teleport Addiction. I am not convinced, in my opinion more mutations should actually affect games that strongly. quote:Is there an answer beyond " BECAUSE gently caress YOU, THAT'S WHY!"? The fact that goons are the only ones still being vocal about it isn't an answer to the question itself. I think that rMut removal improved the game as-is. Funny that it took so long to happen, nobody thought of it before.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:50
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StringOfLetters posted:When should I be training up off-core skills like Fighting, Spellcasting, dodginess & armour? Let's say I'm a Draconian Punch Wizard ("transmuter") and I eventually want to turn into big papa dragon and stomp on everything. What's a basic road-map for when I should have which skills turned on for training up? Everything on at once doesn't seem to work well. Train your Kill Dudes skill first. That's generally your melee weapon of choice, your spellschool that your book runs off of or even Invocations in the case of Makhleb when you find his altar really early. This lets you handle encounters as they come in the early game without feeling reliant on RNG. Around hitting Temple to just starting Lair is when you could consider changing your focus from all Kill Dudes to splitting with defenses, Fighting always worth it and depending on what you're wearing either Dodging or Armour. Spellcasting is a special case in that you really only want to train that for two things: more spell slots for more spells and more MP to cast more often. Blaster mages will want it earlier than hybrids since Killing Dudes runs off it and dumb fighters are just going to ignore it.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:51
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dpeg posted:I will not talk about luring here, this does not seem to be a good place to discuss something that far off. I replied to Haifisch the way I did because his reply was void of content, and I wanted to emphasise that. (My reply to that was also void of content, of course. I can roll along with the best of 'em!)  You had a problem with his post being void of content so you made a lovely post void of content as a counter. That's counterproductive if you want to do anything but have people dislike you and your posts. quote:I think that rMut removal improved the game as-is. Funny that it took so long to happen, nobody thought of it before. That's because it had glaring problems with being removed that kept people from touching it. Now someone touched it and just ignored those problems, so the game is worse. Explain how the rMut removal improved the game, because from my perspective it just made it more RNG heavy in regards to mutations. Now that you have no safe way to counter mutations, you just hoard cMut pots and chug them when you get a bad mutation. That's not interesting. There's nothing interesting about a hell effect giving me red glow which leads to teleportitis, that just makes me chug another potion. How much you struggle with the new mutation system all comes down to how many cMut pots the game felt like spawning. I think mutations are interesting when you have good mutations you want to keep and have to play with bad ones as well. So many of the bad ones have the potential to easily get you killed though that its not worth trying to keep them. You just chug cmut, or lament your lack of cmut and then die. It doesn't help that most of the ways you could actually counter the really bad mutations were removed so if you get them you're just hosed. We went from one bad system to another and I've never seen anyone outside the devs consider it improved.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:07
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What a demanding player, eh?Internet Kraken posted:Explain how the rMut removal improved the game To me, a game gets better if it has more depth, i.e. allows for a larger range of player skill levels. If you receive a bad mutation, then you're "not just hosed", you can still win -- even without any cMut. On top of that, there is skill involved in not getting mutated in the first place, and there's a lot to it: threat assessment, positioning, fog and whatnot. So rMut removal enabled *two* ways how player skill can make a difference. What you say basically tells me that there is too much cMut (and probably that Hell effects need to be looked now that rMut is gone).
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Jun 29, 2016 23:14
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dpeg posted:I am not convinced, in my opinion more mutations should actually affect games that strongly. 
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Jun 29, 2016 23:15
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What, are we not allowed to ask questions about game design when people who design the game post here?
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Jun 29, 2016 23:28
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dpeg posted:I will not talk about luring here, this does not seem to be a good place to discuss something that far off. I replied to Haifisch the way I did because his reply was void of content, and I wanted to emphasise that. (My reply to that was also void of content, of course. I can roll along with the best of 'em!) Then why was it presented as part of a large revamp of the system at first? Oh wait, it's because the dev team knew there would be backlash if they just yanked it and told people to gently caress off. I guess what I've learned today is to just stop playing. I'm not the Hypothetical Autistic Man, and therefore the game is not for me to enjoy or criticize. Godspeed on your journey to absolute perfection.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:36
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dpeg posted:What a demanding player, eh? Why are you posting if you're just going to be a smug rear end? If you actually enjoy making a game for free you should want to explain it to the people that play it, not constantly make snide remarks. quote:To me, a game gets better if it has more depth, i.e. allows for a larger range of player skill levels. If you receive a bad mutation, then you're "not just hosed", you can still win -- even without any cMut. On top of that, there is skill involved in not getting mutated in the first place, and there's a lot to it: threat assessment, positioning, fog and whatnot. -Orbs of fire are one of the tankiest enemies in the game. No amount of "skill" is going to keep them from mutating you, because the vast majority of characters have to be in their LOS to kill them. Even if you block LOS until they are right next to you, they have so much HP that killing one before they malmutate comes down to luck. -Neqoxecs and Cacodemons, even with the reduced spawn rate of the former, are so abundant in Pan/certain Dis endings that you will often encounter them from multiple angles. You can't expend resources like fog on every single one, so blocking LOS comes mostly down to repositiong constantly and blocking LOS with other monsters, which feels silly. When you enter Monoleg's realm you just suffer horribly. -Hell effects are pure RNG and there's nothing you can do about getting glow other than chugging the rare cancellation. If there was meaningful counterplay to malmutate people wouldn't hate it, but the reality is that a lot of the time its just up to the RNG. You can try and pummel a cacodemon as fast as possible but welp you missed and now you have berserkitis from a single action. That's not really fun. If malmutate was reworked into a hazard you can actually avoid through anything other than minimizing LOS and killing the enemy as fast as possible, I doubt people would hate it much. EDIT: And there really is not any counterplay to berserkitis/teleportitis now that the means to counter them have been removed. You can respond to the awful situations they put you in, but the potential for them to completely gently caress you over always exists. A bad teleport at low health is basically a death sentence, and its not like you can just never be at low HP. quote:So rMut removal enabled *two* ways how player skill can make a difference. Yes, glow hell effects do need to be looked at. They were lovely even when rmut exists, but getting glow over and over is incredibly frustrating now. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 23:36
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Happy to see that SA is back at quality levels expected by everyone who's lucky enougn not to be around! (Just to be sure: you do understand that by using "dumb", "smug" and other cool words, you won't get useful replies out of anybody?) SomeoneAwful: You can always ask. If the question makes sense, you'll get a sensible answer, too.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:46
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No one's tying you to a chair and forcing you to post here, man. I think there are a lot of legitimate concerns about how rMut removal was introduced as "part of a mutations overhaul" and left at that; just because you weren't the one who did it and don't have the answers doesn't mean you have to be so incredibly abrasive about it. I also don't think Haifisch's post was devoid of content, though. How would you propose altering luring when it would fundamentally alter the very groundwork of the game? It seems like things like the noise system, for example, are designed entirely with the tactic of luring in mind. What are your spitball ideas, here?
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Jun 29, 2016 23:54
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My perspective on it now that I've played an extended game in 0.18, the only thing removing rMut did for me was make me remove all of my mutations, all the time, with my cure mutation potions. It completely removed mutations, good or bad, as an aspect from the game I was playing. If I had rMut in that game, I would have been more likely to tolerate bad mutations, because chances are I would have had a lot more good ones as well, carefully cultivated from rMut and mutation roulette and eating purple every now and again. I believe it just made early mutations more crippling (which I will always take the side of "the early and mid game does not need to be more dangerous") and late game turned it into a complete non-system. Coincidentally, the run I'm doing now (which has become a sort of hyper-extended run,) I lucked into mutation resistance through benemut potions, and I had a lot of mutations good and bad for a lot of the game. I don't anymore - running into Fire Levels in Zigs made me remove most of them, though I amazingly kept the mutation resistance (and magic resistance.)
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Jun 29, 2016 23:59
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PleasingFungus, if this is the stuff you've had to filter to try and get us answers here, you have my complete sympathy and gratitude. At least you try to be constructive and explain things (when rational explanations exist).
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Jun 30, 2016 00:04
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dpeg posted:Happy to see that SA is back at quality levels expected by everyone who's lucky enougn not to be around! (Just to be sure: you do understand that by using "dumb", "smug" and other cool words, you won't get useful replies out of anybody?) Do you honestly not see how your last few posts have been pointlessly combative? You're being rude to people just because you don't agree with them and just pissing off frustrated players more. I'm not sure why you're even posting. Its cool when devs actually explain the thoughts behind their changes and incorporate community feedback. Its not cool to just run in here and insult us all because you have some weird grudge apparently. Explain what isn't sensible about my post in regards to rmut. Someone Awful! posted:I also don't think Haifisch's post was devoid of content, though. How would you propose altering luring when it would fundamentally alter the very groundwork of the game? It seems like things like the noise system, for example, are designed entirely with the tactic of luring in mind. What are your spitball ideas, here? Yeah I'm not sure how you can just say you want to change a fundamental part of the game and then berate people for being confused by that. I legit don't see how you would change that aspect of Crawl without overhauling massive parts of the game and neutering a bunch of combos in the process.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:04
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Mighty Dicktron posted:My perspective on it now that I've played an extended game in 0.18, the only thing removing rMut did for me was make me remove all of my mutations, all the time, with my cure mutation potions. It completely removed mutations, good or bad, as an aspect from the game I was playing. If I had rMut in that game, I would have been more likely to tolerate bad mutations, because chances are I would have had a lot more good ones as well, carefully cultivated from rMut and mutation roulette and eating purple every now and again. That's kind of my experience too, except I like going for an early game mut set (eat the purple) but I know that I'll eventually end up completely purging if I'm doing more than 4-5 runes. For my part I like malmute on OoF because the threat is different but in line with their other abilities. I think maybe if the mechanics of how monsters like neqos and shining eyes deliver their malmute payload were made a little more avoidable or counterable it would be better.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:09
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I completely agree with rMut getting taken out. You shouldn't really be able to just set your mutations in stone and relax, you should be able to lose mutated rPois and have to adjust yourself to it. That said, hell effects should probably be looked at - getting random unavoidable contam sucks and there really aren't that many cancel pots around to account for it. And I do feel like getting berzerkitis/teleportitis should be reduced and the more fun badmuts (rC-, rF-) should be increased. Alternatively, a fun solution idea: Malmutators need to focus on you to adjust your DNA, so you can go into some sort of status like "Focussed on" or something and you can break their focus by making a sufficiently loud noise (wand of lightning, scroll of noise, blocking a hit with the gong). So you can get away from the mut, but now you're calling more of the level to you.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:18
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I mean, I'll admit Something Awful's response to the removal of rMut is on the extreme end. I think we tend to play less seriously, and enjoy rolling the dice on purple meat and mutation potions for positive mutations -- I'm sure most players don't do that because it's not optimal and heck, it's even detrimental. (You don't notice a lot of complaining about self-inflicted *Tele, for example.) The flaw in the system as it is now, in my opinion, is that positive mutations may as well not exist, because it's nearly inevitable that you'll have to use !cure mutation at some point and lose them, and for that play style, that's a big, big downer. This isn't a problem for most people, probably, but for some of us, it kind of sucks! I'm not saying bringing the amulet of rMut back is the solution. Honestly, that'd be at best a band-aid -- I like the amulet overhaul and the new amulets, and I'm okay with them not being a tactical swap slot like rings anymore. I also agree that carrying an item that completely neutralizes a threat makes the threat uninteresting, but in some situations and with some more robust mutators (OOFs, for example), there aren't really tactics to avoid getting mutated. You could argue that optimal play would prevent most of those situations and thus render most of these complaints baseless, and if that's the answer, well...  Okay, I guess.Making !cure mutation more common is also not an optimal fix, but it's better than nothing.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:23
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pathetic little tramp posted:Alternatively, a fun solution idea: Malmutators need to focus on you to adjust your DNA, so you can go into some sort of status like "Focussed on" or something and you can break their focus by making a sufficiently loud noise (wand of lightning, scroll of noise, blocking a hit with the gong). So you can get away from the mut, but now you're calling more of the level to you. I like this. "You feel your genetics tingling" or whatever before the malmut.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:29
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PleasingFungus posted:They start showing up on D:18. (Which is to say, only as OODs spawns.) I was only on D:1 that long because I was looking for a hobgoblin that had an amulet. I just had to dive because he had too many friends. I had already cleared D:2 and part of D:3.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:36
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Internet Kraken posted:EDIT: And there really is not any counterplay to berserkitis/teleportitis now that the means to counter them have been removed. You can respond to the awful situations they put you in, but the potential for them to completely gently caress you over always exists.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:40
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Can Of Worms posted:The thing about the berserkitis is that it only triggers when you are making a melee attack (this point could be made clearer on the @ screen). If a situation escalates to the point where berserking would kill your character then don't continue attacking like a doofus. Quick question: Would Berserkitis proc on a retaliatory headbutt/involuntary attack or does it have to be an intentional melee attack?
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Jun 30, 2016 00:41
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jerkstoresup posted:I like this. "You feel your genetics tingling" or whatever before the malmut. Yeah, I really like this. Plus it would make scrolls of noise actually a useful scroll, instead of a once-and-done trap consumable like how potions of degeneration are.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:48
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Someone Awful! posted:Quick question: Would Berserkitis proc on a retaliatory headbutt/involuntary attack or does it have to be an intentional melee attack? 
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Jun 30, 2016 00:54
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Mighty Dicktron posted:Yeah, I really like this. Plus it would make scrolls of noise actually a useful scroll, instead of a once-and-done trap consumable like how potions of degeneration are. you can use ?Noise to break mesmerise if you're desperate iirc. That's something! Can Of Worms posted:From code diving it looks like it has to be intentional. Someone actually familiar with the code like PF would be able to confirm that Yeah, I assumed as much. Would be kind of weird to penalize for an innate. Thanks!
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Jun 30, 2016 01:09
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Can Of Worms posted:The thing about the berserkitis is that it only triggers when you are making a melee attack (this point could be made clearer on the @ screen). If a situation escalates to the point where berserking would kill your character then don't continue attacking like a doofus. The problem with berserkitis is you have no control over when it goes off if you're using melee at all, which obviously many characters have too. Common pan situation; you beat up some demonspawn, go berserk on the last one, and then a shadow fiend enters your LOS. Well now your berserk is gonna expire before you can reach it, leaving you slowed in front of a tormentor. Berserkitis puts you in a lot of bad situations like that where you have to burn through resources to recover. It'll only outright kill you if you get berserked and then hit the low chance for paralysis though. Then if you are near any dangerous enemies you're hosed.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:10
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I just want to say, PleasingFungus, you are a good dude and you have a good sense of humor and we appreciate you putting up with us. also change all mutations to just crab related mutation. Crab claws could make weapons less effective but increases unarmed damage, crab legs make you walk faster if you're walking sideways but you cant climb stairs, crab eyes restricts helmets but changes LOS back from square to a really weird oval shape, crab meat makes you so tasty that it's like you're always marked because everyone wants to eat you.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:17
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If the idea is that crawl needs more rng difficulty spikes like getting teleportitis or zerkitis, I just... Man. Dealing with teleportitis and zerkitis is the opposite of fun, and there is honestly not a lot you can do to mitigate them in the long run. Surely there are better ways to make the game harder overall, even if that is your focus? I mean, rng is one thing, but things that directly take away control over your character... That's what Xom is for. This is the first time I've ever wanted to go back to a previous version from trunk, as much as people complained about some past changes. LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 01:38
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dpeg posted:1. Crawl's mutations are sometimes interesting. If the mutation system is a good mechanic, why is it discouraged from existing once you go past 3 runes? Unless you use one of the still existing mechanics to make yourself immune to future bad muts, it makes more sense to slowly purge your character to mundane once you pick up any bad mutation that your character would be moderately annoyed by, never to attempt to get any more positive mutations in order to ration your cMut potions for maximum effect. I agree that removing binary/swap resistances is good for the game. I agree that the mechanic of messing with a player's character in a permanent manner is interesting, but only if done seldomly (I like orbs of fire, shining eyes, and Mnoleg having Malmutate, as they all either fit a theme or serve to give you an extra challenge before the end). I even like having to play around bad mutations at times, usually with the carrot on a stick of attempting to keep another mutation I really like. However, once the player hits the Malmutate Zone that is Extended minus Tomb, the mutation system might as well not exist due to the annoyance of constantly dealing with the negative aspects and never really seeing the positive or interesting parts again leading to players just rationing their !cMut potions to ignore it. Here's an extreme proposal if the mutation system is something that should stick around and stay interesting all game: remove !cMut entirely for Trunk, without any other changes. Force it to actually matter for all players who don't specifically build or take options to ignore or modify it (Zin, Jiyva, undead/Necromut, etc.). I would be interested in seeing if the playerbase is still mostly fine with this, and if it really is just SA (and myself) being overly opposed to the current implementation of the (mal/)mutation system.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:40
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dpeg posted:Happy to see that SA is back at quality levels expected by everyone who's lucky enougn not to be around! (Just to be sure: you do understand that by using "dumb", "smug" and other cool words, you won't get useful replies out of anybody?) Can you make it so Octopodes can wear cloaks? Thanks.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:46
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I'd like someone else's opinion on what armour I should lean into with this Hafling slinger: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/SpaceCob/SpaceCob.txt I have been using this armour for most of the game because of the regen and slaying. code:code:I've been throwing more points into Armour. Or am I being stupid and the regen/slaying ring mail is what I should stick with? The most runes I've ever gotten is 5. Beating that is my only real goal here, not to do a full 15 rune run. This game has been easy with the sling and dagger that Okawaru gave me. And I have all the resists I could ever want.
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Jun 30, 2016 03:41
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You should use lighter armor with your strength, but even with the slaying I would not use that ring mail. I'd rather enchant an rF+ or rC+ ring mail up to +5. You should definitely get more spells, though. Are there good hexes in your game? Summons would also be great. Stuff like shadow creatures or mana vipers. Absolutely get spectral weapon if it's around. Get regeneration and some other necromancy if you can(animate dead is cheap and good, albeit less so in extended). Probably get repel missiles and swiftness if they're available.
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Jun 30, 2016 03:53
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IronicDongz posted:You should use lighter armor with your strength, but even with the slaying I would not use that ring mail. I'd rather enchant an rF+ or rC+ ring mail up to +5. I'm pretty good on rF and rC. My weapons give me a couple levels. The slaying and regen seems worth a couple armor points to me. Am I crazy? quote:You should definitely get more spells, though. Are there good hexes in your game? Summons would also be great. Stuff like shadow creatures or mana vipers. I'm looking at the costs to level up my magic and feel pretty stupid I haven't looked into it. I'll skim the books I have and see what I can find. Animate Dead and Regeneration seem worth it alone. I just found and bought these two rings. code:
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Jun 30, 2016 04:11
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