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Turn all the men into women? As usual Rob Liefeld has this covered.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:32
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Rhyno posted:Turn all the men into women? As usual Rob Liefeld has this covered.  Please! This is a herculean effort that we cannot leave to Liefeld alone. We need someone who can churn out work fast so we can purge Marvel comics of all men as soon as possible.Someone get me Greg Land.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:35
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KittyEmpress posted:Has Nico's bisexuality been talked about at all since Runaways ended, in any of the things she showed up in? Nico was never bi and specifically turned Karolina down because she wasn't bi.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:38
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So anyone got some spare time and want to put a puzzle together to see which characters are getting the big push in the fall? I'm guessing most of them are in the teasers from the last week but I see glimpses of a few, Cable and Gwenpool for example, that weren't in the teasers.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:39
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DrProsek posted:
My avatar also showcases only the first time Guy Gardner was turned into a woman.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:40
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HIJK posted:"The wrong kind of people want this therefore it's bad" is a pretty bad argument against making any creative decision. "This is being done in bad faith" is also a bad argument because it's based off ephemeral perception and personal bias instead of reasoning. I can't wait to read deadpool buttfucks the marvel universe. And "Stucky"?
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Jun 29, 2016 23:41
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KittyEmpress posted:New characters rarely ever last past one, maybe two series. Captain America, Thor, Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, and Nova of the Avengers are all characters that became the characters they are within the last four years. The only characters on the Avengers that are legacy are Vision and Iron Man, and that's largely because Iron Man is as much Tony Stark as Batman is Bruce Wayne. Their characters are tied so heavily to their concepts that they don't really work with anybody else (not for lack of trying). Vision is a whole other ball of wax.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:44
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Toxxupation posted:Captain America, Thor, Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, and Nova of the Avengers are all characters that became the characters they are within the last four years. The only characters on the Avengers that are legacy are Vision and Iron Man, and that's largely because Iron Man is as much Tony Stark as Batman is Bruce Wayne. Their characters are tied so heavily to their concepts that they don't really work with anybody else (not for lack of trying). With the exception of Ms. Marvel (who is debatable) and Nova every single one of those characters has a white male version of the exact same character existing at the same time. Like it's awesome they're doing it but at the same time they're being very careful to keep the 'safe' ones around and with the same or very similar (Captain/Ms) name. Captain Marvel is actually a better example of a long-lasting change to be fair though but that's partially because Marv's death was super iconic.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:48
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ImpAtom posted:With the exception of Ms. Marvel (who is debatable) and Nova every single one of those characters has a white male version of the exact same character existing at the same time I argued this was a dumb situation and not real inclusitivity the other day but one else bought it at the time.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:49
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Toxxupation posted:... Batman is Bruce Wayne. Their characters are tied so heavily to their concepts that they don't really work with anybody else (not for lack of trying).... I see we're going to fight over Dick or Bruce being the better Batman. (I don't think anyone could replace Tony as Iron Man, but that's mostly because I don't like Tony and wouldn't be interested in his successor) Rhyno posted:My avatar also showcases only the first time Guy Gardner was turned into a woman. When we bring the Tumblr Crusade over to DC, Guy Gardner will be the only straight white man spared because honestly making someone that punchable not a straight white man would be problematic.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:51
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ImpAtom posted:With the exception of Ms. Marvel (who is debatable) and Nova every single one of those characters has a white male version of the exact same character existing at the same time How does Steve Rogers existing cheapen the fact that Sam Wilson has the actual shield and isn't a Nazi and is on the Avengers?
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Jun 29, 2016 23:51
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DrProsek posted:I see we're going to fight over Dick or Bruce being the better Batman. Dick's the better Batman and Morrison's Batman and Robin was the best part of his run outside of R.I.P. But you know as well as I do that there's no loving chance in hell Dick-Bat is sitting on the Justice League.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:52
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Toxxupation posted:Nico was never bi and specifically turned Karolina down because she wasn't bi. Except that by the end of the series she is, in fact, fighting with her own sexuality and questioning if she actually does only like boys. And then they teleport to the weird victorian past and she gets turned evil by her ancestor or something, instead of that plot ever being followed through on. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 23:53
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The best Batman is Terry.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:55
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Toxxupation posted:How does Steve Rogers existing cheapen the fact that Sam Wilson has the actual shield and isn't a Nazi and is on the Avengers? Because, for good or ill, it means that you can go "He's *A* Captain America, not Captain America." Legacy heroes are cool but when the original legacy they're following up on is still around it overshadows their legitimacy. People are counting down the days until Thor and Odinson swap hammers and she goes on to be named Thunderstrike or something. Sam Wilson is the Falcon first and foremost even if he's adopted the mantle. I love Miles but even in his *own comic* he was overshadowed by a dead Peter Parker, let alone sharing his name with an alive and active one. I'm glad these characters are being given the pushes they are but when you have the 'classic' versions and the new versions around, history suggests the new versions are going to take a backseat eventually.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:56
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ImpAtom posted:
Why should Marvel be held to a different standard than DC? And especially considering Marvel rarely ever does legacy characters and when they do, especially recently, it's minority legacy characters. Seriously this whole argument is absurd. Marvel could not be pushing FosThor or Sam Wilson or Miles Morales or Kamala Khan any harder than they already are. This is exactly a perfect being the enemy of the good situation, except the "good" is pretty goddamned perfect as it is. I want to read more Steve Rogers stories, I want to read more Odinson stories, even implying that Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel are similar characters beyond the name is fundamentally disingenuous considering how they're completely different characters but I want to read (and am reading about) Carol Danvers in addition to Kamala Khan. And...well actually I'm pretty good not reading more Peter Parker stories outside of Spider-Man/Deadpool but guess what Peter Parker is Marvel's most beloved character of all time for a reason. That reason being: He is an excellent character. And guess what? We are better off, we have better comics and more comics, because both Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson or Peter Parker and Miles Morales or Odinson and FosThor and so on exist side by side. This isn't Barry Allen or Hal Jordan where there's actual erasure or a revival of lovely legacy characters nobody wants. People want to read about the white guys, so Marvel's keeping them around and wringing good stories out of them, but at the same time they're pushing for more representation. It's literally the best of both worlds.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:00
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KittyEmpress posted:Except that by the end of the series she is, in fact, fighting with her own sexuality and questioning if she actually does only like boys. Virtually everyone who read Runaways considers the BKV run the only run that mattered and he made it pretty definitive that she wasn't, which is more the point. I've never even read the post-BKV stuff, and everyone more or less pretends it didn't happen.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:04
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Toxxupation posted:Why should Marvel be held to a different standard than DC? And especially considering Marvel rarely ever does legacy characters and when they do, especially recently, it's minority legacy characters. I... don't think they should? DC is in fact completely awful about this and it's a huge issue? The 'sharing' of identities always means someone gets second fiddle. DC has two minority Green Lanterns on the Justice League right now but they have the same issue of being overshadowed by the cavalcade of more important Green Lanterns. (And John Stewart suffers from this problem too despite being quite a bit older, he's just the one they stopped pushing.) Toxxupation posted:Seriously this whole argument is absurd. Marvel could not be pushing FosThor or Sam Wilson or Miles Morales or Kamala Khan any harder than they already are. Right. And they're pushing them hard and then when they stop they're probably going to revert because they are sharing the title and identity of another active but more classic hero. I don't personally think Kamala will but the others? Yeah. Your argument is "they're pushing them now so everything is solved forever" and I'm saying that I've seen this poo poo before and I have no reason to believe that when the push is over or they consider it properly marketable we're not going to see Sam Wilson as Falcon again and Jane Foster as something besides the titular Thor. You're just going "I'm happy now" and that's great. I'm happy for you. I've just been reading comics long enough to know that eventually Odinson is going to be Thor again, Steve Rogers is going to be the only Captain America, and Miles will always be "the black Spider-Man." (Likewise I know that the divided Wally Wests over in DC are always going to end up being the Real Wally West and the Black Wally West and the latter is going to end up being someone's footnote at some point because Wally and Wally are already playing second fiddle to Barry.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 00:06
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ImpAtom posted:Because, for good or ill, it means that you can go "He's *A* Captain America, not Captain America." Marvel creative could not be doing more to push "The New Guys". The legacy characters are being penned by all of their A-listers, they are all on the Avengers-rear end Avengers team, they're doing stuff like Odinson literally not being Thor and Steve Rogers being a loving Nazi, Sam Wilson carrying the shield, and so on. If people want to read about Peter Parker or Steve Rogers, good characters who have good stories that are being written well, how does this detract when Marvel creative is pushing forward Jane Foster and Kamala Khan and Sam Alexander and Miles Morales and Sam Wilson as the up-and-comers? And again people are holding Marvel to a standard that DC never has been. How many Green Lanterns have there simultaneously been? How many Flashes? How many Supermen? And how many of those characters are white cishet dudes? Why, when Marvel finally dips their toes into doing legacy characters after half-century of going "No Peter Parker is Spider-Man, Tony Stark is Iron Man, etc etc", are they being unduly criticised for doing something DC has done for the better part of 70 years exclusively to introduce more white dudes?
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Jun 30, 2016 00:12
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Toxxupation posted:Marvel creative could not be doing more to push "The New Guys". Yes they could. They could not have the originals around. You may not want this but the fact that they have 'backups' means they're making sure that these new guys are not considered the real ones. You see this reflected in the fanbase, with names like Lady Thor, Captain Falcon or Ultimate/Black Spider-Man. Steve Rogers is the default. Peter Parker is the default. Thor Odinson is the default. You may not want this because it means characters you like go away but that is the cost of it. If you want Sam Wilston to be the Captain America, he can't be sharing screen space with Steve Rogers because at the end of the day it's always going to be Steve Rogers Is Captain America. This isn't even exclusive to minority characters. Bucky isn't Captain America anymore after all. The people going "Well, sure, this new guy is a hero but I want the old guy around too" is what gives us Barry Allen.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:17
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ImpAtom posted:Yes they could. They could not have the originals around. You may not want this but the fact that they have 'backups' means they're making sure that these new guys are not considered the real ones. You see this reflected in the fanbase, with names like Lady Thor, Captain Falcon or Ultimate/Black Spider-Man. Steve Rogers is the default. Peter Parker is the default. Thor Odinson is the default. You are a loving moron. No business is going to shelve or radically alter a money making IP. They will expand on them. Which is what Marvel and Disney are trying to do.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:19
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ImpAtom posted:Your argument is "they're pushing them now so everything is solved forever" No, I'm saying that it's an excellent time to be reading Marvel comics, where virtually all of their titles (outside of a couple of X-Men titles) are some of the best they've ever been, and that Marvel is making a more-than-token effort at inclusivity on their titles. You can't predict the future, so all this needless and frankly disingenuous doom-and-glooming over how everything is gonna turn to poo poo again (despite Kamala and FosThor selling really well and, again, Marvel destroying an entire universe to save the black kid or how Sam Wilson's entire comic is about how people don't see him as the "real" Captain America and his most recent issue is literally about how people are calling for him to give up the shield now that Steve Rogers is around) is both unearned and unnecessary. If things turn to poo poo again, then criticize it then. But for all you know Miles takes off and overtakes Peter Parker as the new favorite Spider-Man and Jane Foster sticks around as Thor and Sam Wilson becomes the permanent Captain America. Until we get an indication that Marvel's actually going through a creative redirection though it's needless handwringing. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 00:19
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Mr Hootington posted:You are a loving moron. No business is going to shelve or radically alter a money making IP. They will expand on them. Which is what Marvel and Disney are trying to do. Yes? I never said they weren't. I'm not arguing about what is profitable because I don't give a poo poo. They are absolutely expanding their IP and part of that expansion is going to be reverting back to the defaults and making the new popular characters a new marketable IP they can sell.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:21
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ImpAtom posted:Yes they could. They could not have the originals around. You may not want this but the fact that they have 'backups' means they're making sure that these new guys are not considered the real ones. You see this reflected in the fanbase, with names like Lady Thor, Captain Falcon or Ultimate/Black Spider-Man. Steve Rogers is the default. Peter Parker is the default. Thor Odinson is the default. Ah, yes. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:22
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Toxxupation posted:Ah, yes. The perfect is the enemy of the good. You can recognize something is good and still point out its flaws you know. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 00:24
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ImpAtom posted:Yes? I never said they weren't. I'm not arguing about what is profitable because I don't give a poo poo. They are absolutely expanding their IP and part of that expansion is going to be reverting back to the defaults and making the new popular characters a new marketable IP they can sell. Your entire thing is  The white originals that make money are around and this is bad
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Jun 30, 2016 00:29
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Mr Hootington posted:Your entire thing is Yes? And I think it is if you're interested in diversity having any lasting impact. As long as the originals are around the new characters are second fiddle. This isn't a problem exclusive to Marvel or to comics but it's even more significant when they share the same superhero identity. (This is why I think Kamala has a longer shelf life than the others for example because Captain Marvel and Ms. Marvel are not sharing an identity, just a former identity.) Also the "no company is going to make drastic changes to their IP!!" thing is laughable as companies regularly make drastic changes to their IP, sometimes leading to huge success or failure. There is a frigging Ghostbusters movie coming out in a month or so featuring an entirely lady cast. The idea that no company will ever change a successful IP ever is silly. There are few IPs I can think of that don't do drastic changes after a while if they last long enough. If your argument is "they're playing it safe and taking few risks to maximize their profits" then I agree, they are. I just think it comes at a cost to the characters they're pushing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 00:34
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Mr Hootington posted:Your entire thing is No, their entire thing is that legacy heroes are de-legitimized when the original heroes are hanging around which is a good point. You can't have (for example) Wally West as the Flash trying to live up to the example of Barry Allen when Barry Allen is hanging around. Same thing goes for Miles Morales/Peter Parker, although post-SW Miles... isn't even a legacy character I guess, since he's living in a world where Spider-Man never died(?) Your whole thing is "But they'll never shelve the cash cows!", and you're probably right, but it doesn't make ImpAtom's point somehow invalid. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 00:36
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Yeah legacy heroes are devalued by the existence of the original, as that is the whole point of legacy continuing where your predecessor left off.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:47
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ImpAtom posted:Yes? And I think it is if you're interested in diversity having any lasting impact. As long as the originals are around the new characters are second fiddle. If you think increased diversity and sustained profit are mutually exclusive then you are doomed to failure, sorry. Marvel is doing a good job and they absolutely could be doing an even better one without losing money, but if you aren't happy unless they burn Peter/Steve at the stake that's simply never going to happen.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:49
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Which is why having Spider-Man 2 and Cap 2 at all is dumb. Either make the originals black or whatever or just make new characters/pull out underused existing ones.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:50
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To be fair it has nothing to do with profit per say, but risks. The big two are rather risk adverse which has hurt them just more subtly.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:52
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ImpAtom posted:Yes? And I think it is if you're interested in diversity having any lasting impact. As long as the originals are around the new characters are second fiddle. This isn't a problem exclusive to Marvel or to comics but it's even more significant when they share the same superhero identity. (This is why I think Kamala has a longer shelf life than the others for example because Captain Marvel and Ms. Marvel are not sharing an identity, just a former identity.) Ghostbusters is an IP that has laid dormant for close to 20 years and was reinvented once already. It is a revitalization of a brand. No company is going to take a cash cow IP that is currently pumping out merchandise and movies and radically change it mid stride. They will play it safe until it quits making tons of money. Let it cool and try to rebrand it. Luckily comic IPs have this great petri dish that they can experiment and try new things with to see what sticks. If it makes you irritated that they still exist. Don't buy the books, see the movies, or buy merchandise until they change. Speak with your wallet. Most of these "legacies" at Marvel are expansions of the franchises. They are not the same as DC's legacies which are a key part of their stories.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:52
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JoshTheStampede posted:If you think increased diversity and sustained profit are mutually exclusive then you are doomed to failure, sorry. I don't. That's in fact the opposite of what I think. I think in the long run having a more inclusive and diverse universe will benefit them as their target audience becomes more diverse, and I think this is a good first step hampered by the fact that their legacy heroes are not being allowed to fully embrace the legacy. JoshTheStampede posted:Marvel is doing a good job and they absolutely could be doing an even better one without losing money, but if you aren't happy unless they burn Peter/Steve at the stake that's simply never going to happen. Yes, I said they should burn Steve and Peter at the stake. That is a completely reasonable thing to take from my comments.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:52
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, I said they should burn Steve and Peter at the stake. That is a completely reasonable thing to take from my comments. It's hyperbole, but am I misunderstanding you that Miles and Sam don't matter unless Peter and Steve are dead or otherwise out of the universe?
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Jun 30, 2016 00:54
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JoshTheStampede posted:It's hyperbole, but am I misunderstanding you that Miles and Sam don't matter unless Peter and Steve are dead or otherwise out of the universe? nope that is it.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:55
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He is right as well.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:56
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X-O posted:So anyone got some spare time and want to put a puzzle together to see which characters are getting the big push in the fall? I'm guessing most of them are in the teasers from the last week but I see glimpses of a few, Cable and Gwenpool for example, that weren't in the teasers. Eh, CBR or Rich will have done it by Monday. And when does the new Marvel Previews come out? Next Tuesday?
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Jun 30, 2016 00:56
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JoshTheStampede posted:It's hyperbole, but am I misunderstanding you that Miles and Sam don't matter unless Peter and Steve are dead or otherwise out of the universe? Yes the idea that a legacy hero can't really inherit/share their predecessor's title while their predecessor is running around actively using that same title is utterly insane.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:59
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DrProsek posted:Yes the idea that a legacy hero can't really inherit their predecessor's title while their predecessor is running around actively using that same title is utterly insane. "Can't fully inherit" and "don't count as meaningful inclusion at all" are a bit different.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:01
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