UKRIPMT June 2016: #Boxit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKRIPMT June 2016: #Boxit

How will you be voting in the UKEU Referendum? This poll is closed.
Remain - Keep Britane Strong!	328	15.40%
Leave - Take Are Sovreignity Back!	115	5.40%
Remain - But only because Brexit are crazy	506	23.76%
Leave - But only because the EU is terrible	157	7.37%
Spoiled Ballot - This whole thing is an awful idea	61	2.86%
I'm not going to vote	19	0.89%
I'm not allowed to vote	411	19.30%
Pissflaps	533	25.02%
Total:	2130 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

triden't isn't too useful as a counterforce weapon vs US or Russian hardened silos

http://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/Kahn%27s_Escalation_Ladder not much on the menu is in your price range

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:26

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 18:25

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

how about British population centres

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:27

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

XMNN posted:

leavers we're going to feel they were robbed whatever the outcome of the referendum and whether we end up leaving or not unless brexit genuinely does result in everything being perfect and great and Britain ruling the waves and showing Johnny Foreigner what for imho

they will always have the eu and immigrants as a scapegoat and if we swan dive into an even worse recession than 2008 and they have collaborationist politicians working with the evil eurocrats and the fact we didn't kick out all the foreigners immediately to blame for it, that sounds like a p good recipe for fascism too

The really scary thing is once we're got Brexit and and they've kicked out all the immigrants, and find that people's lives are still poo poo, they'll need another scapegoat.

I hate to :godwin:

(but it really doesn't feel like hyperbole at this point) but the old refrain of "First they came for the....." is perfectly appropriate. They'll keep needing scapegoats, and eventually they'll run out of people who can be simply deported.

The only solution to this is to confront the fascist and neoliberal lies head on. Another few years of a Labour Blairite promising to be slightly-less-bad-than-the-tories will genuinely only make matters worse.

If this sounds melodramatic consider that in a fortnight we've had the murder of a Labour politician by a British Nationalist and white supremacist, the Referendum result, and a massive spike in reports of hate crimes against minorities.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:29

LemonyTang: Nov 29, 2009; Ask me about holding 4gate!

Posting this incase George Eaton gets any more ideas about how he's been told Corbyn is looking for a wayout. Received 4:15pm.

quote:

United we stand, divided we fall is one of the oldest and truest slogans of the Labour movement.

After last week's referendum, our country faces major challenges. Risks to the economy and living standards are growing. The public is split.

The Government is in disarray. Ministers have made it clear they have no exit plan, but are determined to make working people pay with a new round of cuts and tax rises.

Labour has the responsibility to give a lead where the Government will not. We need to bring people together, hold the Government to account, oppose austerity and set out a path to exit that will protect jobs and incomes.

To do that we need to stand together. Since I was elected leader of our party nine months ago, we have repeatedly defeated the Government over its attacks on living standards. Last month, Labour become the largest party in the local elections. In Thursday's referendum, a narrow majority voted to leave, but two thirds of Labour supporters backed our call for a Remain vote.

I was elected leader of our party, for a new kind of politics, by 60% of Labour members and supporters. The need for that different approach now is greater than ever.

Our people need Labour Party members, trade unionists and MPs to unite. As leader it is my continued commitment to dedicate our party's activity to that goal.

Yours sincerely

Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party

Also Trident loving sucks. It HAS to go. Britain is the only country that has a chance at being the first to disarm. If we don't do it nobody else will. And that means we will constantly be edging closer to the inevitable nuclear war, planned or unplanned.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:29

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Went out to pub dinner with my dad earlier, he's not particularly politically active but he reads The Times every day (largely from 60 years of inertia). His comment on Corbyn: "It would be nice to find out what his policies are", which goes to show how well informed most people are about anything at all. (He also believed that the CLPs all chose their MPs)

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:32

Palpek: Dec 27, 2008; Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.

http://i.imgur.com/Xy4ZdkX.gifv

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:33

Hitler B. Natural: Feb 11, 2014

Oberleutnant posted:

The really scary thing is once we're got Brexit and and they've kicked out all the immigrants, and find that people's lives are still poo poo, they'll need another scapegoat.

I hate to (but it really doesn't feel like hyperbole at this point) but the old refrain of "First they came for the....." is perfectly appropriate. They'll keep needing scapegoats, and eventually they'll run out of people who can be simply deported.

The only solution to this is to confront the fascist and neoliberal lies head on. Another few years of a Labour Blairite promising to be slightly-less-bad-than-the-tories will genuinely only make matters worse.

If this sounds melodramatic consider that in a fortnight we've had the murder of a Labour politician by a British Nationalist and white supremacist, the Referendum result, and a massive spike in reports of hate crimes against minorities.

Holy God I had genuinely forgotten about Jo Cox, this downward spiral is so overstuffed with incident it fell out

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:34

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Hitler B. Natural posted:

Holy God I had genuinely forgotten about Jo Cox, this downward spiral is so overstuffed with incident it fell out

shame on you, she even was attractive. rip.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:35

JoylessJester: Sep 13, 2012

Baloogan posted:

shame on you, she even was attractive. rip.

uh... mods?

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:38

Manic_Misanthrope: Jul 1, 2010

Hitler B. Natural posted:

Holy God I had genuinely forgotten about Jo Cox, this downward spiral is so overstuffed with incident it fell out

It says something to how monumentally hosed this past month has been when the murder of a sitting MP by a neo-nazi can be buried under everything else.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:39

sebzilla: Mar 17, 2009; Kid's blasting everything in sight with that new-fangled musket.

Baloogan posted:

shame on you, she even was attractive. rip.

Real classy there, friend

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:39

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

LemonyTang posted:

Britain is the only country that has a chance at being the first to disarm. If we don't do it nobody else will.

Doesn't work if nobody notices you, cares, or follows suit. :vuvu:

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:40

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Oberleutnant posted:

The only solution to this is to confront the fascist and neoliberal lies head on.

Once Labour gets its poo poo together and starts doing this, I believe a large part of the North will be won back fairly quickly. The main reason Corbyn lacks popularity here, so far as I can tell, is he's too reasonable and soft spoken. Things are poo poo up here, and people are desperate for easy answers and someone to blame. The fact that it's come down to immigrants and scroungers isn't because of any innate predisposition towards bastardry or whatever, it's because that's been the only message going for god knows how long.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:41

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

Jaminjami posted:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/748600835098165248

sick coup

Perhaps this was Corbyn's plan all along: face repeated attempts by the PLP to oust him, with a new surge in membership re-electing him each time. 1m Labour members by 2020?

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:42

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

VanSandman posted:

Why do all your conservatives look like they are badly in need of good old fashioned American bullying?

Inbreeding among the aristocracy is a real problem. Although that doesn't explain Gove. gently caress knows what the justification for Gove is.

Jaminjami posted:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/748600835098165248

sick coup

Maybe a lot of them are people like Pissflaps, motivated purely by an intense-bordering-upon-creepy obsession with Jeremy Corbyn?

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:42

Fans: Jun 27, 2013; A reptile dysfunction

Hey know, everyone's just assuming they joined to support Jeremy. Maybe that's 60,000 die hard Angela Eagle supporters, you don't know.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:43

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

There's a lot of desperate love for Corbyn ITT.

He comes across as across as a nice guy, and is very principled. But I'm sorry, he just does not have what it takes to be the leader of a political party. One crucial skill of a leader is to be able to command respect of his peers and constituents (in this sense the PLP), and this is even more critical in the cut-throat world of politics. While I think the MPs seeking to depose him are themselves acting in a horribly destructive and slimy manner (and are helped by a largely anti-Corbyn press), his inability to gain, retain, or regain their respect is in itself enough to show that he is not a credible leader. He also totally lacks charisma, which is another crucial attribute of a leader in politics. At this point, his policies are largely irrelevant - politics is 60% simply how you act and come across, and always has been. Do you think Obama would have become President if he didn't have his charm and charisma? Do you think Boris would have been able to bumble his way to London Mayor and almost PM candidate if he was a dull character?

And an afterthought, he was hugely naive to say those things about Israel. Sure, he didn't mean to make a direct comparison, but in the world of politics you have to pour over every sentence with a fine tooth comb. Leader of a political party that is going through an anti-semitism crisis AND as someone that is often labelled as a HAMAS sympathiser, he should not make such an obvious faux pas. My friends and I literally face palmed when we saw that.

Ewan fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jun 30, 2016

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:43

Nitrousoxide: May 30, 2011; do not buy a oneplus phone

Baloogan posted:

triden't isn't too useful as a counterforce weapon vs US or Russian hardened silos

http://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/Kahn%27s_Escalation_Ladder not much on the menu is in your price range

Subs are all for allowing a retaliation not for first strike.
They're there to make sure you realize you're hosed even if you take out all the land and air based nukes.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:43

LemonyTang: Nov 29, 2009; Ask me about holding 4gate!

Guavanaut posted:

Doesn't work if nobody notices you, cares, or follows suit.

Can't believe I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for pointing it out.

I still stand by my point. Of current nuclear powers, we are the only country even considering disarming. (I think? Ready to be proven wrong again!)

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:43

Manic_Misanthrope: Jul 1, 2010

Pistol_Pete posted:

Perhaps this was Corbyn's plan all along: face repeated attempts by the PLP to oust him, with a new surge in membership re-electing him each time. 1m Labour members by 2020?

All that extra funding per month from the �3 supporters joining in bulk.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:44

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Ewan posted:

There's a lot of desperate love for Corbyn ITT.

He comes across as across as a nice guy, and is very principled. But I'm sorry, he just does not have what it takes to be the leader of a political party. One crucial skill of a leader is to be able to command respect of his peers and constituents (in this sense the PLP), and this is even more critical in the cut-throat world of politics. While I think the MPs seeking to depose him are themselves acting in a horribly destructive and slimy manner (and are helped by a largely anti-Corbyn press), his inability to gain, retain, or regain their respect is in itself enough to show that he is not a credible leader. He also totally lacks charisma, which is another crucial attribute of a leader in politics. At this point, his policies are largely irrelevant - politics is 60% simply how you act and come across, and always has been. Do you think Obama would have become President if he didn't have his charm and charisma? Do you think Boris would have been able to bumble his way to London Mayor and almost PM candidate if he was a dull character?

Take care gentle poster, the Corbyn Defence Force takes no prisoners.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:44

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Nitrousoxide posted:

Subs are all for allowing a retaliation not for first strike.
They're there to make sure you realize you're hosed even if you take out all the land and air based nukes.

Yeah, SSBNs are for providing a survivable countervalue force. Keeping only one leg of the triad makes for a wobbly stool.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:46

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

Deptfordx posted:

The Sun says - don't listen to what those bleeding hearts say. The sooner we're all consumed in nuclear fire, the happier this country will be. Vote YES on#NUKEUK

Can the people who disagree with this show their working?

99.9% of people are t members of the Labour Party. Of those who aren't, the plausible reasons are

A: don't like left wing politics at all
B: Dont like left wing politics enough to actively join a party
C: member of some other political party to the left of labour

for what I said to.be wrong, c has to be bigger than a + b.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:47

Illuyankas: Oct 22, 2010

Still a few people on my facebook demanding everyone stop whining and relax, it's still early days and we'll see the benefits of leaving soon, don't worry

Ewan posted:

There's a lot of desperate love for Corbyn ITT.

He comes across as across as a nice guy, and is very principled. But I'm sorry, he just does not have what it takes to be the leader of a political party. One crucial skill of a leader is to be able to command respect of his peers and constituents (in this sense the PLP), and this is even more critical in the cut-throat world of politics. While I think the MPs seeking to depose him are themselves acting in a horribly destructive and slimy manner (and are helped by a largely anti-Corbyn press), his inability to gain, retain, or regain their respect is in itself enough to show that he is not a credible leader. He also totally lacks charisma, which is another crucial attribute of a leader in politics. At this point, his policies are largely irrelevant - politics is 60% simply how you act and come across, and always has been. Do you think Obama would have become President if he didn't have his charm and charisma? Do you think Boris would have been able to bumble his way to London Mayor and almost PM candidate if he was a dull character?

And an afterthought, he was hugely naive to say those things about Israel. Sure, he didn't mean to make a direct comparison, but in the world of politics you have to pour over every sentence with a fine tooth comb. Leader of a political party that is going through an anti-semitism crisis AND from someone that is often labelled as a HAMAS sympathiser should not make such an obvious faux pas. My friends and I literally face palmed when we saw that.

"The people opposing him are slimy and self-destructive, but the fact he doesn't have their support is a negative thing against him"

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:47

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Baloogan posted:

triden't isn't too useful as a counterforce weapon vs US or Russian hardened silos

http://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/Kahn%27s_Escalation_Ladder not much on the menu is in your price range

Teach me how to MANO.

Also my mum and step-dad just joined Labour a few hours ago explicitly, and I quote, "To support Corbyn".

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:48

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

Illuyankas posted:

Still a few people on my facebook demanding everyone stop whining and relax, it's still early days and we'll see the benefits of leaving soon, don't worry

"The people opposing him are slimy and self-destructive, but the fact he doesn't have their support is a negative thing against him"

Yes, it actually is.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:48

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Mister Adequate posted:

Teach me how to MANO.

Also my mum and step-dad just joined Labour a few hours ago explicitly, and I quote, "To support Corbyn".

its 50% off till the 4th!

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:49

Jrbg: May 20, 2014

I joined Labour this week because I was worried that if Corbyn goes I wouldn't have an assurance of my ideology being represented in mainstream politics. It's not a deep attachment to the man, if Eagle offers a good platform I'd be fine with voting for her.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:49

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Ewan posted:

There's a lot of desperate love for Corbyn ITT.

He comes across as across as a nice guy, and is very principled. But I'm sorry, he just does not have what it takes to be the leader of a political party. One crucial skill of a leader is to be able to command respect of his peers and constituents (in this sense the PLP), and this is even more critical in the cut-throat world of politics. While I think the MPs seeking to depose him are themselves acting in a horribly destructive and slimy manner (and are helped by a largely anti-Corbyn press), his inability to gain, retain, or regain their respect is in itself enough to show that he is not a credible leader.

What kind of behaviour do you suppose would earn the respect of a bunch of power hungry neo-liberal suits? Do you imagine such behaviour could ever also earn the respect of a genuinely left wing base?

Ewan posted:

Yes, it actually is.

Why did I bother seriously responding. :fut:

Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jun 30, 2016

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:50

Laradus: Feb 16, 2011

E: Yes, this is going to go nowhere. I bit. Sorry.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:53

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

I think your party political structure is hosed when members of the parliament can refuse to serve under their party's elected leadership.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:53

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Can we have an agreement that in the new thread people will just not respond to Pissflaps? He's making the thread all but unreadable.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:53

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Ewan posted:

There's a lot of desperate love for Corbyn ITT.

He comes across as across as a nice guy, and is very principled. But I'm sorry, he just does not have what it takes to be the leader of a political party. One crucial skill of a leader is to be able to command respect of his peers and constituents (in this sense the PLP), and this is even more critical in the cut-throat world of politics. While I think the MPs seeking to depose him are themselves acting in a horribly destructive and slimy manner (and are helped by a largely anti-Corbyn press), his inability to gain, retain, or regain their respect is in itself enough to show that he is not a credible leader. He also totally lacks charisma, which is another crucial attribute of a leader in politics. At this point, his policies are largely irrelevant - politics is 60% simply how you act and come across, and always has been. Do you think Obama would have become President if he didn't have his charm and charisma? Do you think Boris would have been able to bumble his way to London Mayor and almost PM candidate if he was a dull character?

And an afterthought, he was hugely naive to say those things about Israel. Sure, he didn't mean to make a direct comparison, but in the world of politics you have to pour over every sentence with a fine tooth comb. Leader of a political party that is going through an anti-semitism crisis AND as someone that is often labelled as a HAMAS sympathiser, he should not make such an obvious faux pas. My friends and I literally face palmed when we saw that.

Yeah, it's been pointed out 100 times since Friday that this thread has a lot of desperate love for left wing politics (which isn't exactly a new development), Corbyn is simply the only thing even vaguely close to an important, national left-wing politician since the resignation of Michael Foot in 1983. A year before I was born. If another left-wing candidate came along who had the charisma & guile of Obama, but combined it with being a socialist rather than a centre-right liberal then I'd support that person. But that isn't the choice. So yeah, my support for Jeremy Corbyn is a long way short of blind. I have (& others have too) acknowledged his faults in this thread. But he's who we've got. And I'm quite content to support a man who is highly principled and treats the electorate with respect and doesn't talk in black & white in the most simplistic terms but is poo poo at "playing the game" when the alternative is people who aren't particularly principled, or their principles don't really reflect my principles.

For far too long the left gave in to the idea that you could only beat the Tories by stealing their policies. That really doesn't seem like winning to me.

Jedit posted:

Can we have an agreement that in the new thread people will just not respond to Pissflaps? He's making the thread all but unreadable.

I'll try. Bet others won't.

forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 30, 2016

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:54

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

Renaissance Robot posted:

What kind of behaviour do you suppose would earn the respect of a bunch of power hungry neo-liberal suits? Do you imagine such behaviour could ever also earn the respect of a genuinely left wing base?

I honestly don't know. Leadership of the labour party seems to be a poison chalice at the moment. While I say Corbyn is not cut out to be leader, that is not purely a criticism of him. Leadership has two parts - the leader and the led. I expect the vast majority of other potentials are also not cut out for it. But, some of the natural (and necessary) traits of a good political leader, such as charisma and charm, are specifically missing from Corbyn's toolset.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:54

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Friendly Humour posted:

I think your party political structure is hosed when members of the parliament can refuse to serve under their party's elected leadership.

So you think we should have MPs who can't vote how they want to vote and are compelled to fulfil cabinet posts they are allocated?

Jedit posted:

Can we have an agreement that in the new thread people will just not respond to Pissflaps? He's making the thread all but unreadable.

How about you go easy on the back seat moderation, hmm?

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:55

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

I still want to know what forums poster Pissflaps opinion on the Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn is. I don't think he made his views quite clear. At least I would like to hear why he thinks Corbyn should be replaced.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:55

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Ewan posted:

Yes, it actually is.

Frankly while I don't have a problem with him stepping down, I'd rather his faction take full control of the NEC and thus return candidate selection to the party itself before he walks. Currently he's being a bit of a hate-sponge while the party left start taking control of the internal democratic institutions. I'd say his intention of hanging on for the time being is to keep that train going more smoothly.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:55

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

Renaissance Robot posted:

What kind of behaviour do you suppose would earn the respect of a bunch of power hungry neo-liberal suits? Do you imagine such behaviour could ever also earn the respect of a genuinely left wing base?

Why did I bother seriously responding.

To expand - it is a negative against him, but I am not saying it is solely his fault. The PLP shares a large chunk of the blame too.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:56

Miruvor: Jan 19, 2007; Pillbug

Leadership takes conviction, and vision, in equal measures..

Pretty much any politician I can think of would have resigned in Corbyn's position, rather than be the victim of this smear campaign. Seeing him actually refuse to back down to the kind of poo poo thrown at him is one of the biggest acts of political courage I've seen in a long time.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:56

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 18:25

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Pissflaps posted:

So you think we should have MPs who can't vote how they want to vote and are compelled to fulfil cabinet posts they are allocated?

Yeah? It's called party discipline, and seeing as you're unfamiliar with it I suddenly understand why your parliament looks like it's full of monkeys hooting and throwing poo poo at each other. You people need to learn some loving manners I tell you.

# ? Jun 30, 2016 21:57

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