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1B No We've had our rousing successes, now it's time to play it conservative.
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Jul 1, 2016 14:39
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DatonKallandor posted:I'm not sure why people are so obsessed with getting Clan Tech or Clan Tech Specs. The IS is fast catching up, and unlike Clan Tech there actually exist factories in the IS to produce that poo poo. Plus the NRWR is ahead of the clans in many areas and equal in most others. Having a jumpship telefrag has less to do with a lack of manpower and more to do with relatively inexpensively eliminating a battleship. Building and training warships to fight toe to toe would be far more expensive. It's the same reason that real world navies have anti ship missiles instead of relying on cannon duels.
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Jul 1, 2016 14:42
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Endomorphic posted:Also, what do we thing are the odds for 1C - Demon Hawks say no to Amaris, who says "cool, here's your next job, on some random backwater, oh maybe you should expect at most one well equipped star, but that's probably all" which turns out to be a Khan who thinks they're in a challenge because Amaris actually said yes to the Clans? If the NRWR saw any advantage to their #1 hire dueling the Clans, including potential prizes, Amaris could just tell them to accept the challenge and the Crescent Hawks would do it because that is their job. If you want a duel, you should keep beating them in the field until the clans are really flipping their poo poo. If they are eager for a fight now, think about how they'd be frothing after the Crescent Hawks have chewed through a galaxy worth of mechs? The best prize being suggested is a dropship, but I kind of think that is a little premature and that a Clan model would be a white elephant. Servicio en Espanol fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 15:00
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evilmiera posted:As noted before: that rep is not hurt if there is no one left alive to update people on that rep. A mostly Liao time-honored tradition is to stiff mercs on their pay either this way or by citing some secret clause you did not fulfill they snuck into your contract ( or just lie about your performance, leaving you with the word of a large state versus a mangy merc company) Yes, but trading those mercs an Atlas III isn't generally part of that plan. The NRWR demonstrably has a pilot shortage, and there's no evidence of a matching shortage of wealth or resources. I think it much more likely that they'll keep the best merca on retainer and send them back to the Inner Sphere as agents. And it's much more likely they'd pay their mercs to accept specific contracts and then backstab their employers than they'd refuse to pay. 1B, No. If Amaris, who knows as much or more about Clan culture than the Demon Hawk leadership, can't see an obvious way to troll by accepting, then there isn't one. And trying to game the system is pretty much ceding the field: the one area where the Clans can consistently outperform is in gaming their own bidding/contest system. You neither troll nor win wars by fighting where the enemy wants you to fight. Metagaming-wise, PTN will give us another awesome scenario regardless of the choice.
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Jul 1, 2016 15:19
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1B, no - but don't make it a hard refusal, just a "nope, not at this time" so as to dangle the possibility in front of the clans. I'm sure Amaris could use that, he's devious.
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Jul 1, 2016 16:31
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We're defending right? We pick methods and locations right, per clan custom? Then it's a speed chess battle, decided on the virtual chessboard and not the field. And we cheat by using a NRWR computer versus the clan khan. 1a Yes 2f whole clan at once
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Jul 1, 2016 16:47
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So. Will the clans bid among themselves or will they fight among themselves? Can we get them to spend time trial of refusing eachother constantly instead of actually fighting? What will hurt the clans the most? What will make them waste the most time bidding and squabbling? It should be challenging the smallest unit. Have everyone and their If every clanner feels hes really the best and only held back by lessers. Every clanner will want to bid. (we're getting the ghost bear trinary if we do this) Probably going to vote trinary though.
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Jul 1, 2016 16:58
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On the note of kf drives and explosions, what would happen if they tried to jump into a planet core, or just the surface of a planet?
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Jul 1, 2016 16:58
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DatonKallandor posted:I'm not sure why people are so obsessed with getting Clan Tech or Clan Tech Specs. The IS is fast catching up, and unlike Clan Tech there actually exist factories in the IS to produce that poo poo. Plus the NRWR is ahead of the clans in many areas and equal in most others. I do not think they are catching up, at least not as fast as they were in the original timeline, but I may be wrong. However, at this point clan tech is still super expensive and if utilized in a smart way very effective. Since it is doubtful Amaris will just let them walk off with his best tech, no matter how much he likes them, the Hawks getting a hold of a bunch of Clan tech on top of their sizeable payment means their unit either becomes extremely competitive ( until their shiny new tech breaks and they have trouble finding technicians to repair it) or they get a hold of a nestegg to sell if things go sour for them after this. Edit: crap, doublepost
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Jul 1, 2016 17:06
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evilmiera posted:On the note of kf drives and explosions, what would happen if they tried to jump into a planet core, or just the surface of a planet? Respectively, the planet would continue along completely unbothered by a few hundred thousand tons of twisted metal and ceramic alloys being added to its aggregate mass, or, on the surface, you'd get a pretty impressive implosion shockwave as the jumpship tears itself into pieces mid-jump and likely scoops out a 300-metre wide chunk of landscape around its hull. KF drive fields are relatively small; most of them expand only far enough to carry along the docked dropships after all.
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Jul 1, 2016 17:24
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Voting 1B No
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Jul 1, 2016 17:26
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evilmiera posted:I do not think they are catching up, at least not as fast as they were in the original timeline, but I may be wrong. However, at this point clan tech is still super expensive and if utilized in a smart way very effective. Since it is doubtful Amaris will just let them walk off with his best tech, no matter how much he likes them, the Hawks getting a hold of a bunch of Clan tech on top of their sizeable payment means their unit either becomes extremely competitive ( until their shiny new tech breaks and they have trouble finding technicians to repair it) or they get a hold of a nestegg to sell if things go sour for them after this. The current state of affairs is that the NRWR has better armor than the clans, but is still behind in a couple weapon techs, while being at parity with most. (The Dragoon II in the last mission had clan-spec weapons aside from it's Republic PPC). The Clans still have several unique weapons though, between (improved) Heavy lasers, Hyper-Assault Gauss rifles, and (improved) ATMs. Eagerly awaiting the situation where PTN finally brings out the uber bullshit society iATMs and improved Heavy Lasers 
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Jul 1, 2016 17:37
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Wouldn't be surprised of the Capellans are the ones pulling those out, what with having Society running around with infinite funds and complete freedom.
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Jul 1, 2016 17:47
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If we do duel, are we defending? Can we recreate the battle of Wolcott and make a giant trap out of it?
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Jul 1, 2016 17:55
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evilmiera posted:I do not think they are catching up, at least not as fast as they were in the original timeline, but I may be wrong. However, at this point clan tech is still super expensive and if utilized in a smart way very effective. Since it is doubtful Amaris will just let them walk off with his best tech, no matter how much he likes them, the Hawks getting a hold of a bunch of Clan tech on top of their sizeable payment means their unit either becomes extremely competitive ( until their shiny new tech breaks and they have trouble finding technicians to repair it) or they get a hold of a nestegg to sell if things go sour for them after this. If Amaris isn't going to let them walk away with NRWR tech, why would he let them walk away with Clan tech? He could stop them either way, but there's no reason for him to. Like I said, he didn't care when we took the Copperhead salvage even though we have no salvage rights. He's been nothing but a gracious host so far. If Amaris goes to backstab us, expect it to be on the field either if A) everything goes to poo poo and he needs us to hold the line against stupid odds, or B) there's an extremely important objective he thinks we can complete behind enemy lines and just lies to us about having a way out after the mission completes. He's not just going to deny us our rides when the contract ends if the war is won. It would be stupid. He's got the best R&D teams in the Sphere (possible exception of the Society in Liao space), a bunch of new tech to study, and a built up economy he can retool to produce it. It works in his favor for him to continue to look magnanimous when he sends happy mercs back to the Sphere of how Amaris beat the asses of THREE Clans and gave the mercs new toys out of generosity when they left. It makes him appear super benevolent and competent to the rest of the Sphere. You can't buy PR like that. What's denying them their mechs on the way out the door get him? Like 15 battle worn mechs and a horrible reputation. Whoopee.
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Jul 1, 2016 18:10
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Amaris already gave Duncan a Mech filled to the brim with cutting edge tech - he's well past the point of trying to keep it hidden. The PR aspect is part of why I think the Demon Hawks could get a lot out of challenging the clans for allied prisoners. Amaris + the rest of the forces on the planet would look at that very favorably (and encourage them in the future to bail the Hawks out in an emergency) and any fellow mercs saved would spread great word of mouth about the unit. Not to mention that if you negotiate a drop ship out of Amaris the final product is likely to be something actually good and new instead of a half-assed clan refit of a centuries old ship.
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Jul 1, 2016 18:18
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That's very nice and also insulting to the Clans: "We're going to fight against one of your trinariers (Mechs). We don't want your stuff or genetics. We want our people back!"
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Jul 1, 2016 18:25
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Voting 1B No. Let's keep at destroying the clanners in every fight by cheating, focusing fire, engaging them piecemeal and otherwise bending the odds in our favour. Let's not give the clanners a chance at anything resembling a fair fight. As for the Copperhead and salvage. Remember that we have no salvage rights because there's no time to go around salvaging, so they're booby trapping stuff instead. If you can walk it off the field, chances are the NRWR will let you keep it.
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Jul 1, 2016 18:42
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Remmon posted:Voting 1B No. There's no salvage rights because our contract specifically said we don't get salvage rights. It's why we get such good bounty on kills instead. We had no true right to that salvage, they were being nice to us. It may not be a huge deal, but it's still something on the side of "the NRWR aren't completely petty asshats looking to gently caress us over on loot".
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Jul 1, 2016 18:58
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Wouldn't the clans consider some of the things posters are asking for (Ie, an entire dropship or larger spacecraft, or Clantech memory core) at considerably higher worth than three stars of battlemechs, thereby putting our brave mercs at an equally considerable disadvantage?
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Jul 1, 2016 18:58
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Picard Day posted:Not to mention that if you negotiate a drop ship out of Amaris the final product is likely to be something actually good and new instead of a half-assed clan refit of a centuries old ship. The clan dropships, Union-C and Overlord-C, are both total rebuilds and are worlds better than the IS counterparts. They started as refits, but eventually the clans just gave up because they were replacing everything anyway so why not build them from scratch. Notably they carry more mechs, have better armor and weapons, and the most staggering difference is how much cargo they can carry. An IS overlord can carry 36 mechs and 132 tons of cargo. The clan overlord-C can carry 45 mechs and 1,181 tons of cargo (stats per MekHQ). The IS one does carry some aerospace fighters, that might be the difference, but even 600 tons of aerospace fighter doesn't cover the difference in cargo tonnage and it's moot since the Demon Hawks don't have any aerospace assets. The union-c is similarly nuts compared to the IS version, more mechs, more cargo, better arms/armor. Teledahn posted:Wouldn't the clans consider some of the things posters are asking for (Ie, an entire dropship or larger spacecraft, or Clantech memory core) at considerably higher worth than three stars of battlemechs, thereby putting our brave mercs at an equally considerable disadvantage? Probably not? I don't think the clans are going to compare cbill values to see what they should be allowed to bring. A union-c can carry a trinary, so clearly it's something that unit probably has access to and therefore can provide if they lose. I still don't think taking the challenge is a good idea, but asking for a dropship from 2A probably isn't out of the realm of possibility. Also dropships are insanely expensive, the cheapest way I could find to move 15 mechs (actually 16, but whatever) was ~280 million cbills. There's no way that they'd be able to afford that even if this contract continues to go this well. Actually getting one of those, presumably with a crew that they don't need to pay because they are Olothreutes fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 19:29
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Olothreutes posted:The clan dropships, Union-C and Overlord-C, are both total rebuilds and are worlds better than the IS counterparts. They started as refits, but eventually the clans just gave up because they were replacing everything anyway so why not build them from scratch. Notably they carry more mechs, have better armor and weapons, and the most staggering difference is how much cargo they can carry. An IS overlord can carry 36 mechs and 132 tons of cargo. The clan overlord-C can carry 45 mechs and 1,181 tons of cargo (stats per MekHQ). The IS one does carry some aerospace fighters, that might be the difference, but even 600 tons of aerospace fighter doesn't cover the difference in cargo tonnage and it's moot since the Demon Hawks don't have any aerospace assets. The union-c is similarly nuts compared to the IS version, more mechs, more cargo, better arms/armor. If your spaceship sprocket breaks you'll have to pay astronomical Clan salvage prices for a replacement, though, assuming that there is even salvaged clan dropship parts on cBay. They'd be better off trading a clan dropship for one or two IS models, and damned if I know how that'd work, space craigslist?
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Jul 1, 2016 20:26
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Tentatively voting for 1B: Amaris > Clan Bushido. "Tentatively" because as sensible it is to go for the C-bills than for fleeting and arbitrary "honor", showing them that we don't care about their batchall may cause them to pull out all their stops and invite the other Clans to jump in, as the Snow Ravens aren't the only ones invading. I suppose it may be a nice way to meet Alek in person, though.  I'd support Psion's suggestion to imply dangling the possibility that they will accept the batchall once the Clans have been proven "worthy". This kind of hinges on the Demon Hawks roflstomping the next few scenarios, though, to lend credence to the claim. We got lucky twice but I don't know if third, fourth, or fifth time's the charm.
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Jul 1, 2016 20:28
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If everything is so expensive, do the military budgets of the great houses run into the trillions or something?
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Jul 1, 2016 20:29
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Unrelated to the vote itself, do you guys think Bethany and Noretti, being our two pet Clanners, end up bidding against each other in background stuff off the battlefield? Cooking breakfast? I bid away the use of the griddle! Also, only two eggs! Space Poker with the crew? One of them plays with one of their cards showing to increase the difficulty. Etc. I'm genuinely curious if they realize how much that system is actually a game once they've had to intermingle with IS warriors.
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Jul 1, 2016 20:33
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So, how much did Amaris pony up for the mission's default danget pay and the extra six turns? Also, if we sign up for another few years and agree to train some of his mechwarriors, I'm pretty sure Amaris will hand over a dropship. Anyway, I'm going to go against my instinct and vote Accept, for a dropship and its full complement of clan mechs, but only if Amaris will provide another guaranteed dropship for the chaos it will cause, as well as emergency cheating if necessary. Also, the enemy may bid no more than a trinary of the same tonnage, and against second-line Clanners, based on their intelligence being higher, as someone suggested also, throw in Ath, Haze, Mae and the two pilots crippled by Revenants. Don't know why we want him so bad when he is the picture of clan thought, he probably won't change for us, but he is popular. He'd probably be useful and happy training Republic mech jockeys in live fire exercises till he dies. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 20:43
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The thing about the bidding is that there will be fierce competition between the Clans to be the ones to fight the mercs. That's why 'a clan, whichever one of you is tough enough' still results in a not impossible fight because of the inevitable bidding war to be the ones to take down those insolent mercs.
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Jul 1, 2016 20:46
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The last thing we need is more Clanner pilots to deprogram.
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Jul 1, 2016 20:46
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PoptartsNinja posted:Why worry about what might have been? Magnificent. Punishment for greed in the face of unrealistic odds (thereby making the success of the players feel hard won and fully rewarded), but softened by also being a potential hook for future use. You are a Good DM. Nullkigan fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 20:49
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RA Rx posted:So, how much did Amaris pony up for the mission's default danget pay and the extra six turns? The last thing you want to do is fight second line clanners - they've got by far the better mechs, as was in evidence in the last mission. First Grade omni-crap is what you want as your opponent.
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Jul 1, 2016 20:52
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Well, we don't really need bondsmen. But if we ask for a dropship from Amaris as the price for accepting, we can: 1) Gain 1 Dropship 2) Amaris VI prepares a cheat if we lose. 3) If we win we get a Second Dropship, and mechs and bondsmen we can trade (ask for technicians and/or scientists if we don't want jockeys) 4) If we lose, presumably Amaris honors his words and is smarter than any Clanners countermeasures, and the Demon Hawks are still up 1 Dropship, sans the gained reputation with the clans and to some extent in the inner sphere... still a good from a mercenary perspective. It's assuming everything goes well if things go wrong, but so far the NRWR has a perfect record of running rings around the clans and honoring their deals with mercs. DatonKallandor posted:The last thing you want to do is fight second line clanners - they've got by far the better mechs, as was in evidence in the last mission. First Grade omni-crap is what you want as your opponent. Ah, I see. --- Another option is to simply sell our reputation to Amaris. Allowing him to play mindgames with the Clans, using the company's reputation as he makes doppelganger companies. Probably worth a dropship to him. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 20:53
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RA Rx posted:Well, we don't really need bondsmen. Why would he be giving us stuff for something the NRWR doesn't want us to do???
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Jul 1, 2016 20:58
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Zaodai posted:I'm genuinely curious if they realize how much that system is actually a game once they've had to intermingle with IS warriors. This has the potential to be a really impressive piece of writing if PTN wanted to take up his pen. It'd essentially be a form of careful PTSD therapy by game playing; a Clanner realising they can do all that Clan stuff in a safe environment for tiny stakes. I wonder if Clanners are prone to be compulsive gamblers?
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Jul 1, 2016 21:01
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Probably. ^I reread. You're basically right. Central did want to decline outright. Amaris VI didn't state his personal opinion though, perhaps he could be convinced, he does seem to like the Demon Hawks... but probably not. Worth trying to get paid twice if Yes wins though.
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Jul 1, 2016 21:04
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Loxbourne posted:This has the potential to be a really impressive piece of writing if PTN wanted to take up his pen. It'd essentially be a form of careful PTSD therapy by game playing; a Clanner realising they can do all that Clan stuff in a safe environment for tiny stakes. Yeah, that was basically what brought on my thought. You can't really quit the self-limiting mindset, as it'd be like a form of OCD. But you could scale it back so it's something you do for fun, when you're off duty. Regarding the gambling, I think they would be gamblers, but really lovely ones. They'd be full on agro-donks if it were poker. 5-7 off suit? poo poo yeah, unsuited 1 gap connector. ALL IN BABY. Think of the glory!. *loses two weeks pay*
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Jul 1, 2016 21:06
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1) Accept the Clan challenge for an honor duel? 1A) Yes 2) If yes, what size force will the Demon Hawks agree to engage? 2A) A trinary, no more 3) What should the Demon Hawks ask for if they win? A dropship enigma74 fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 22:11
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Nullkigan posted:Magnificent. Punishment for greed in the face of unrealistic odds (thereby making the success of the players feel hard won and fully rewarded), but softened by also being a potential hook for future use. You are a Good DM. Yes you definitely are.
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Jul 1, 2016 22:18
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enigma74 posted:1) Accept the Clan challenge for an honor duel? PTN did mention that the release captive option to bargain for isn't very useful, because we haven't let the clans TAKE anyone captive from the Demon Hawks. (And I assume they just would refuse to give us other unit's people).
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Jul 1, 2016 22:23
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Also if the RWL wins (looking likely) then all prisoners get rescued anyway. The Clans aren't getting them off-world.
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Jul 1, 2016 22:32
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So telefragging works on predictable vectors. You know what else moves on predictable vectors? Capitol cities and production facilities. The ability to put a kilometer wide hole in anything, anywhere is terrifying even if you can only afford to do it a few times. No wonder Amaris is so free with the mechs. They're suits of full plate and he's making cruise missiles.
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