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Though in those cases it's usually cheaper to just use nukes. Which is what led to the "scavenger knight" sphere-wide technological collapse in the first place.
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Jul 1, 2016 22:36
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1B)No Take from them everything, give them nothing. Not even the satisfaction of a good fight.
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Jul 1, 2016 22:44
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True, but nukes can be defended against to an extent by patrolling all systems within a 30 light year bubble to prevent the nuke from ever getting in system. You can drop a telefrag from across the galaxy by Amaris's own admission. It's a billion dollar golden bullet. Not for everyday use but just by existing gives you power.
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Jul 1, 2016 22:44
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But you have to be really careful with it's use since once people figure out what it actually is, you're just as vulnerable as everyone else to it by the nature of what makes it awesome. Also while telefragging itself has no technical range limits, to paraphrase one of my favorite mass effect 2 side conversations: 'when you fire this you are ruining someones day, sometime, somewhere, so you better make sure you hit what you're aiming at!' It's likely that the only reason they were able to get good vectors on the McKenna was due to the spy satellites keeping tabs on it. Which would mean similar data coverage for other targets which would mean that the methods for getting that data would fall under the nuke protection range, and if you're spending so much time/material/money on just getting data to shoot them with a weapon they can't block, why not just hit them with the nukes and save the headache? Edit: Especially since most of the targets Amaris would want to hit (aside from the clans) would be under Comstar HPG coverage and they would probably get really suspicious if following a call containing a lot of data on spatial vectors, something imploded impossibly. Or following some non-Comstar HPG traffic the same thing happened. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 23:27
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It really feels like the NRWR has been doing all the jumpdrive research that Interconnectedness Unlimited supposedly did in the main universe. They purportedly had a super-jump drive that they built and tested on a jumpship called the Lucretia, which they ultimately ended up micro-jumping into a star to keep from being captured by the WoB. Supposedly it was also responsible for a disaster at the New Syrtis shipyards, where someone breached security so they fired up the jumpdrive while in the shipyard  Really, the whole story of IU reeks of government front or something else crazy like that. Mysterious company shows up seemingly overnight, has sufficient resources to buy out massive companies, does advanced research while owning lots of fast food places? Olothreutes fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 23:29
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DatonKallandor posted:The last thing you want to do is fight second line clanners - they've got by far the better mechs, as was in evidence in the last mission. First Grade omni-crap is what you want as your opponent. Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Front Line Clanners, while certainly more skilled, tend to be hampered a bit by the fact that Omnimechs are often rigged out to do everything at once, since each Clanner is essentially fighting his own personal war of honor. Second line troops on the other hand mix being very skilled with also being /much/ hungier for victory, their Battlemechs tend to be very focused in their given role, and they are far more likely to bend or break Clan rules of engagement if they think no one is looking (or cares). And Solamna troops? Don't even go near those fuckers, because they take the desperation that Second Line troops have and mix it with suicidal fearlessness and a desire for one last moment of glory. They /will/ jump into a wood chipper with an honest to god smile in their face if it means dragging you in with them. I mean, just look at what the Solamna forces in the last battle did. A bunch of squishy infantry pulled an end run on you and blockaded the exit with their fleshy bodies, and that single act would have caused the entire scenario to come crashing down on everyone's heads if the PCs hadn't treated a bunch of washed out soldiers with the deadly seriousness they actually deserved. Rorahusky fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 23:31
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So borrowing an amateur technobabbler hat for the moment - it seems to me that Amaris's KF-attack trick is not exactly a classic telefragging; if simply putting Jumpship A into Warship B was that fatal someone would have discovered it by accident around a normal jump point location centuries ago and nobody would be nearly as mystified and shocked. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that there's a whole lot of extra kick added from being willing to send your KF drive into some place where physics is already making the drive go ka-boom in the split-second before it's co-locating with your target. Which is scarier - ten thousand tons of mostly inert metal materializing in close contact with your hull, or one thousand tons of metal materializing in close contact with your hull, and accelerated by jump failure into moving in every direction at once at a few hundred kilometers per second? (Which suggests, in passing, that a jump-capable drone might have a 'sweet spot' that limits its utility against ground-level targets. Aim it too deep into a gravity well and you end up with, not 10% of your original mass moving scarily fast, but just 0.01% of your mass moving somewhat scarily faster. The kind of thing that unless you're crazy precise with your targeting, just ends up inside the target planet's mantle and contributes to some geological instability over the next decade or so. Oops.)
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Jul 1, 2016 23:47
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Vote: 1B, Why bother playing the Clanners' dumb honor bullshit game? Especially considering that the Clanners that show up for a duel after what happened in orbit will be looking for any way possible to break their own rules to gently caress up the Demon Hawks beyond repair.
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Jul 1, 2016 23:54
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Amaris jumped into the McKenna's drive core. Technobabble on KF fields is such that a drive anywhere close to an active KF field not its own is many degrees of completely hosed. You can't even haul around significantly sized parts of another drive without poo poo going nuts. The bullet doesn't have to go boom because it makes the target do so just by existing. Also remember that even a Warship's compact drive is close to half the vessel's mass and takes up space all over the ship. It goes and everything else goes.
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Jul 2, 2016 00:01
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Bacon In A Wok posted:So borrowing an amateur technobabbler hat for the moment - it seems to me that Amaris's KF-attack trick is not exactly a classic telefragging; if simply putting Jumpship A into Warship B was that fatal someone would have discovered it by accident around a normal jump point location centuries ago and nobody would be nearly as mystified and shocked. Space is very, very, very, very, very, very, very big (even just the space around Jump Points), and ships are very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very small in comparison. There also isn't that much space traffic in the BattleTech universe relative to the number of populated systems. Also, you don't need any extra kick to make interpenetration a 100% guaranteed kill. Suddenly having twice as much matter in the literal exact same space is going to cause all sorts of nasty, nasty things to happen.
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Jul 2, 2016 00:06
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Bacon In A Wok posted:So borrowing an amateur technobabbler hat for the moment - it seems to me that Amaris's KF-attack trick is not exactly a classic telefragging; if simply putting Jumpship A into Warship B was that fatal someone would have discovered it by accident around a normal jump point location centuries ago and nobody would be nearly as mystified and shocked. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that there's a whole lot of extra kick added from being willing to send your KF drive into some place where physics is already making the drive go ka-boom in the split-second before it's co-locating with your target. Which is scarier - ten thousand tons of mostly inert metal materializing in close contact with your hull, or one thousand tons of metal materializing in close contact with your hull, and accelerated by jump failure into moving in every direction at once at a few hundred kilometers per second? The damage was likely caused by the spontaneous fusion of a bunch of matter suddenly occupying very close space, either by jumping in or by distorting local gravity.
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Jul 2, 2016 00:06
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It's not that sort of teleporter though, is it? They're not putting this ship over there, they're putting the-lump-of-space-this-ship-is-in over there. Proper fuckery to the local fabric of spacetime, twisting poo poo through dimensions it doesn't normally exist in so they can make here appear over there. A significant fraction of that warship just went twisting wrongward into a pseudo-space and the drive-weapon that emerged from the jaunt was unhappy to find its destination less than smooth, transited in a decidedly non-euclidean manner and promptly exploded like a good-un.
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Jul 2, 2016 00:15
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Zurai posted:Space is very, very, very, very, very, very, very big (even just the space around Jump Points), and ships are very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very small in comparison. There also isn't that much space traffic in the BattleTech universe relative to the number of populated systems. This is key to remember. The degree of precision required to 'hit' the target of a stationary or predictably-moving warship is insane versus even normal jump calculations. Amaris likely had to have this plotted out weeks in advance and just hope for a ship to commit to the proper course to have a chance at it. Plus there's plenty of inaccuracy with misjumps, shifts in the gravity well and all kinds of other technobabble fuckery. There's also no evidence that this can ACTUALLY be repeated - it would be a very Amaris-like gambit to show it off to the Hawks, tell them it's his ultimate weapon and then let intel take it's course to spread. It could have easily been a wild gambit and a lucky shot. It would be very much in the NRWR's favor to intimidate not just the Clans but the rest of the IS into thinking there's a Warship-vaporizing weapon around. Tempest_56 fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 00:32
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Also he spent a year planning the campaign to bring the enemy warship exactly to that position at that time in a system he had meticulously mapped beforehand. This is a trick that only works with a lot of preparation.
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Jul 2, 2016 01:35
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DatonKallandor posted:Also he spent a year planning the campaign to bring the enemy warship exactly to that position at that time in a system he had meticulously mapped beforehand. This is a trick that only works with a lot of preparation. And it only works so long as the enemy doesn't know about it.
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Jul 2, 2016 01:38
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Seeing as how we are working directly for Amaris' father we should shift tactics and start weaponizing dad jokes against the clans. Let's start by issuing a fake trial for possession of all of CSR's updog.
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Jul 2, 2016 04:02
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DatonKallandor posted:Also he spent a year planning the campaign to bring the enemy warship exactly to that position at that time in a system he had meticulously mapped beforehand. This is a trick that only works with a lot of preparation. And I think a conveniently placed pirate jump point is required?
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Jul 2, 2016 04:18
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vorebane posted:And I think a conveniently placed pirate jump point is required? You only need jump points if you want to get back. They're just used to minimize damage to the drive.
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Jul 2, 2016 04:20
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1B) No - We've got plenty of honor, thanks. As much as I'd like to challenge the Clans for a Union-C Dropship or a bunch of Mechs, we are Mercs. A good fight for a mercenary company is one where you get paid to win a battle as far in your favor as possible. Clanners, on the other hand, train for these sorts of honor duels - there's no need to fight them on their terms. Ardlen fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 04:51
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Comedy option: Accept their challenge... IN KITCHEN STADIUM.
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Jul 2, 2016 04:53
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1B NO in case my vote got missed before, with a preference for maximum trollery in how that's delivered.
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Jul 2, 2016 04:54
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1B - NO. All the reasons have been said already.
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Jul 2, 2016 06:58
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Wait. All these stations. Military and civilian. Stationary or at least in a stable geosynchronous orbit. Every one of them is a valid KF target. Isn't Sol defended by a lot of stations and warships?
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Jul 2, 2016 10:00
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Affi posted:Wait. Sol ain't defended by poo poo. Officially, anyway. Military space stations are lostech.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:02
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DatonKallandor posted:I'm not sure why people are so obsessed with getting Clan Tech or Clan Tech Specs. The IS is fast catching up, and unlike Clan Tech there actually exist factories in the IS to produce that poo poo. Plus the NRWR is ahead of the clans in many areas and equal in most others. This isn't quite true. Star League designs are decent for what they're intended to do, which is 'be deployed en masse at very long range in very large fleets with supporting escorts and other elements.' Thing is, most people don't really have the supporting elements to do that doctrine anymore and all the 'new' ships are designed better for what warships are generally used for post-2750, which is 'clown on dropships and jumpships.' Basically, yes, SL ships have relatively thin armor compared to 'modern' warships-but it's enough to deter ground fire and take a few salvos from enemy ships, and they tend to be ridiculously gunned because they waste zero tonnage on fire control (due to all-capital weapons loadouts). If you run PD-heavy fighters and dropships, which you should, you can basically take away the risk of being hit by nuclear weapons by the combination of ECM bubble and PD support, and then the enemy has the choice of either engaging the escorts, which means the warships will laser you to death, or engaging the warships, which are very hard targets and will be lasering you to death while you're at it-and the escorts will be joining in on the fun too. The main problem with the SL era-warship designs was that they were designed before any design rules were actually created, which means that they, generally to a fault, can be optimized pretty heavily by some relatively minor changes. If you strip some of their cargo space, you can generally make them much more survivable (because armor on Warships weighs way too little).
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Jul 2, 2016 10:12
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Personally I just love the way Amaris deployed a super-secret supership superweapon supercarrier (the Enterprise-IIs)...and then it didn't matter because he had another one up his sleeve. Is NRWR military procurement like 1945 Germany but with less terror and more giggling? "It's a gun that shoots antimatter pigeons..." "SHIP IT" Another question about the jump torpedo concept is are they actually torpedoes? Did Amaris fling an old jumpship at the McKenna or does he actually have a production line somewhere that can build relatively cheap one-burst KF drives? That will substantially alter the cost/effectiveness of the weapon.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:44
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Loxbourne posted:Personally I just love the way Amaris deployed a super-secret supership superweapon supercarrier (the Enterprise-IIs)...and then it didn't matter because he had another one up his sleeve. Is NRWR military procurement like 1945 Germany but with less terror and more giggling? "It's a gun that shoots antimatter pigeons..." "SHIP IT" The carriers matter because they're going to take out the White Cloud, probably the Spur, and also as many transport jumpships as they can find. Popping the McKenna made that possible, since the Third can't last long against a McKenna going ham on it and their whole strategy depends on the Third taking hits. I wonder where the SaKhan of the Snow Ravens is. I guess that's KaKhan, now.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:57
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Wonder if the KaKhan is still alive on the prow. 
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Jul 2, 2016 11:14
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So, how big a fusion bomb do you need to do serious damage to a terrestrial planet? Target should be a lot easier to hit, even if you aim for the upper crust. Sneak a jumpship to Strana Mechty, input coordinates, leave by escape pod and have someone else pick you up... or sacrifice yourself. And one jumpship's worth of atoms fusing as close to the planetary surface as possible.
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Jul 2, 2016 11:23
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Issue is if the Ghost bears have the Lev 2 early, nothing amaris has deployed would survive one of those going ham on him. He'd need to telefrag it and well CGB is notably smarter than your average clanner (or bear).
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Jul 2, 2016 13:20
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RA Rx posted:So, how big a fusion bomb do you need to do serious damage to a terrestrial planet? Target should be a lot easier to hit, even if you aim for the upper crust. Absolutely absurd, and far beyond what this universe is capable of. That McKenna clocks in at 1.9 million tons - even if all that mass was bomb-mass we'd still only be looking at around 9 million megatons of explosive force. That's several orders of magnitude less than what you'd need to damage a planet. It'd utterly gently caress the human-built structures in the blast radius and probably cause an unimaginable ecological disaster, but damaging an actual planet is really, really difficult.
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Jul 2, 2016 13:24
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AtomikKrab posted:Issue is if the Ghost bears have the Lev 2 early, nothing amaris has deployed would survive one of those going ham on him. He'd need to telefrag it and well CGB is notably smarter than your average clanner (or bear). The Ghost Bears have a single trinary in the Inner Sphere and their reason for making the Lev 2 is out of the picture with them getting beaten in the pre-invasion trials. I'm not even sure that trinary is supposed to be here in the first place. We might end up with a Goliath Scorpion Dominion but there's no way in hell the Ghost Bears are building a giant space ark to haul rear end to their nonexistent Inner Sphere holdings. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 13:32
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Tempest_56 posted:Absolutely absurd, and far beyond what this universe is capable of. That McKenna clocks in at 1.9 million tons - even if all that mass was bomb-mass we'd still only be looking at around 9 million megatons of explosive force. That's several orders of magnitude less than what you'd need to damage a planet. I was running some calculations on that impact calculator thats around and yeah its pretty hard to break a planet, however I found that if we Slammed the Mckenna into a planet at full speed everything within 300 miles is gone, either the thermal wave burns it or the air pressure wave destroys it. It would leave a crater abot 33 miles wide too.
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Jul 2, 2016 15:31
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Crustal disruption is hard, ecosphere collapse is a lot easier.
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Jul 2, 2016 15:33
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Brilliant update. Still love Amaris (or the Amarises?) As for the vote: 1 B) No. Don't play the clans' games.
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Jul 2, 2016 16:23
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Telsa Cola posted:I was running some calculations on that impact calculator thats around and yeah its pretty hard to break a planet, however I found that if we Slammed the Mckenna into a planet at full speed everything within 300 miles is gone, either the thermal wave burns it or the air pressure wave destroys it. It would leave a crater abot 33 miles wide too. Are you assuming total conversion of the mckenna's mass to energy, or something? From the description, the weapon seems to be more like a warp bubble that makes most of the target just go away... shoved off into the Warp or whatever. There's been no indication of atomic fission or fusion or whatever, much less matter-antimatter interaction. Well, other than neutrino flux, but that happens before the jump ship arrives, so I think we're to assume they're not being generated by fusion in the normal way.
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Jul 2, 2016 16:40
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Leperflesh posted:Are you assuming total conversion of the mckenna's mass to energy, or something? From the description, the weapon seems to be more like a warp bubble that makes most of the target just go away... shoved off into the Warp or whatever. There's been no indication of atomic fission or fusion or whatever, much less matter-antimatter interaction. Its purely based of kinetic energy based off the measurements of the class provided by Sarna, I did however have to plug in the length of the ship as the diameter since I had no information on that so that probably effects it somewhat. I also assumed the Burn Speed provided was in Km/s and that its density would be a little higher then iron though in hindsight Im not quite sure I would think that. To clarify this is what would happen if we flew it into a planet, sideways. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 16:59
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Sel Nar posted:Respectively, the planet would continue along completely unbothered by a few hundred thousand tons of twisted metal and ceramic alloys being added to its aggregate mass, or, on the surface, you'd get a pretty impressive implosion shockwave as the jumpship tears itself into pieces mid-jump and likely scoops out a 300-metre wide chunk of landscape around its hull. KF drive fields are relatively small; most of them expand only far enough to carry along the docked dropships after all. So approximately the damage needed to take out, say, a throne wing of a state palace?
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Jul 2, 2016 17:13
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evilmiera posted:So approximately the damage needed to take out, say, a throne wing of a state palace? Now you're thinking with portals.
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Jul 2, 2016 17:49
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| # ? May 27, 2024 12:18 |
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Leperflesh posted:Are you assuming total conversion of the mckenna's mass to energy, or something? From the description, the weapon seems to be more like a warp bubble that makes most of the target just go away... shoved off into the Warp or whatever. There's been no indication of atomic fission or fusion or whatever, much less matter-antimatter interaction. There is a technical discussion of damage from interposing jump-capable objects on page 130-131 of the Tech Manual, if you're interested in the actual details of spaceships wrecking each other. They specifically discuss the example of two ships materializing on top of one another during the jump into Terra at the end of the Star League Civil War. One,Richardson, was destroyed due to interposition of her magazines and reactor with the nose of the second, Mississippi Queen. Queen survived with the loss of her forward compartments, but was unable to jump again due to core damage from closely-associated active jump fields. The event is surprisingly low-energy. (It's also an IR flux, as neutrino sensors are specifically not a thing in BattleTech, but that's a sufficiently minor detail that it doesn't really affect anything.)
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Jul 2, 2016 21:02
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