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Is this the thread where I can espouse my anti-Israel opinions? PS: when I type anti-Israel into my phone the first suggestion is anti-Semitic. Of course. Edit: fixed spelling Twerkteam Pizza fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 16:32
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Israel, not Isreal, even though Israel is real.
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Jul 1, 2016 16:48
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Cat Mattress posted:Israel, not Isreal, even though Israel is real. Okay fixed. Now how many people in this thread give a poo poo about those hurt in the modern day apartheid?
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Jul 1, 2016 16:55
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:Okay fixed. The vast majority.
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Jul 1, 2016 18:38
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Main Paineframe posted:The politicians at Hallel Yaffa Ariel's funeral are being so transparent and insincere that even the Times of Israel is calling them out on it. I don't know if you know this, but using a funeral as a stage for incensed political rhetoric is not entirely without precedent here. Unseemly perhaps, but I would assume you then feel the same way about the funeral of Palestinian 'martyrs' used as platforms for incitement. quote:Once again, a Jewish corpse becomes a political prop for the ambitions of settlers and thieves. What an odd phrasing. On the subject of "settlers and thieves", the girl who was surprised with a knife in this incident lived in a West Bank settlement. Would it have been any different if this murder had happened in Israel proper? Is there more of a moral rationale than if this had happened in Tel Aviv?
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Jul 1, 2016 18:43
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The Insect Court posted:I don't know if you know this, but using a funeral as a stage for incensed political rhetoric is not entirely without precedent here. Unseemly perhaps, but I would assume you then feel the same way about the funeral of Palestinian 'martyrs' used as platforms for incitement. I do. quote:What an odd phrasing. Murder is murder, Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, one does not justify the other if that is what you seem to be struggling with. Murdering children is never justified and should be dealt with in accordance to the moral standards of a modern society in the 21st century, apprehend the felon and bring him to trial, using a military force to collectively punish entire cities for the actions of individuals has nothing to do with law enforcement of justice, you are promoting the rationale of colonialism. Crimes done in the context of a foreign military invasion are still crimes, the foreign military invasion does not become justified by the occurrence of those crimes. As MK Zoabi put it "the Israeli's right to feel safe does not trump the Palestinian's right to live free".
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Jul 1, 2016 18:52
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The Insect Court posted:I don't know if you know this, but using a funeral as a stage for incensed political rhetoric is not entirely without precedent here. Unseemly perhaps, but I would assume you then feel the same way about the funeral of Palestinian 'martyrs' used as platforms for incitement. Palestine has a right to resistance. Israel does not have a right to ethnically cleanse or annex another country as some of those at this funeral were calling for. quote:On the subject of "settlers and thieves", the girl who was surprised with a knife in this incident lived in a West Bank settlement. Would it have been any different if this murder had happened in Israel proper? Is there more of a moral rationale than if this had happened in Tel Aviv? No. As mentioned Palestinians have a right to resistance which allows them try and regain their freedom through force of arms. The deciding factor as to the legality/morality of this attack is not which side of the border it occurred on but whether a legitimate military target has been chosen. Under IML Palestinians can target soldiers (or other legitimate targets, which includes some stuff you wouldn't think like tv stations) in Israel or Palestine and can target civilians in neither.
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Jul 1, 2016 18:58
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team overhead smash posted:Palestine has a right to resistance. Israel does not have a right to ethnically cleanse or annex another country as some of those at this funeral were calling for. Killing kids isn't valid resistance; the girl didn't have any choice in where she lived or who her parents were.
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Jul 1, 2016 19:10
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Nobody here is actually calling it resistance?
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Jul 1, 2016 19:15
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fool_of_sound posted:Killing kids isn't valid resistance; the girl didn't have any choice in where she lived or who her parents were. Did you read the very next paragraph I wrote?
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Jul 1, 2016 19:19
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fool_of_sound posted:Killing kids isn't valid resistance; the girl didn't have any choice in where she lived or who her parents were. You might wanna reread their post, specifically what TIC is talking about in the part of the post TOS is responding to, and the second half where they say "Palestinians... can target civilians in neither [Israel or Palestine]". E: Beaten
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Jul 1, 2016 19:20
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team overhead smash posted:Did you read the very next paragraph I wrote? Sorry, it wasn't super clear until I reread what you meant.
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Jul 1, 2016 19:29
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The Insect Court posted:I don't know if you know this, but using a funeral as a stage for incensed political rhetoric is not entirely without precedent here. Unseemly perhaps, but I would assume you then feel the same way about the funeral of Palestinian 'martyrs' used as platforms for incitement. The "settlers and thieves" I'm referring to are the ones using her death as a platform to call for stealing more land and building more houses. You should ask them which child murders do and don't qualify as an justification for illegal construction.
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Jul 1, 2016 20:19
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Hey just a quick personal anecdote about this. I was at work, the occupation/israel was brought up in a conversation and i had a woman explain to me how a 9 year-old somehow got through the separation gate into a settlement, and killed hallel yaffa ariel. Then somehow the orlando shooting becomes the focus and she starts explaining to me how radical islam is to blame for that and how him being conflicted with his sexuality totally wasn't a factor. Just a general idea of the kind of poo poo for brains types who tend to stick their necks out regarding israel around where I live.
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Jul 1, 2016 23:09
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Ultramega posted:Then somehow the orlando shooting becomes the focus and she starts explaining to me how radical islam is to blame for that and how him being conflicted with his sexuality totally wasn't a factor. Admittedly not the thread for it, but as far as I've seen the probes into the "He was actually gay/conflicted sexuality" stuff kept turning up as actual misinformation from idiots. I mean I mighta missed something more recent, but the first good few all turned out to be bullshit and I've since kind of stopped looking that way. Not to say that ladies stupid implication is right though obviously.
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Jul 1, 2016 23:27
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Yardbomb posted:Admittedly not the thread for it, but as far as I've seen the probes into the "He was actually gay/conflicted sexuality" stuff kept turning up as actual misinformation from idiots. I mean I mighta missed something more recent, but the first good few all turned out to be bullshit and I've since kind of stopped looking that way. Not to say that ladies stupid implication is right though obviously. Source? I've only heard things reinforcing that idea.
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Jul 1, 2016 23:54
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Nevvy Z posted:Source? I've only heard things reinforcing that idea. I just remember a few people coming forward like real quick afterwards, then suddenly being nowhere when people started asking for more about it. Like I said though I haven't actually looked at the whole deal again recently, so I'm probably out of the loop on something.
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Jul 2, 2016 03:04
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Main Paineframe posted:The politicians at Hallel Yaffa Ariel's funeral are being so transparent and insincere that even the Times of Israel is calling them out on it. Once again, a Jewish corpse becomes a political prop for the ambitions of settlers and thieves. TOI is a centrist newspaper that lets anyone post blogs.
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Jul 2, 2016 03:15
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Nevvy Z posted:Source? I've only heard things reinforcing that idea.
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Jul 2, 2016 03:19
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yeah its still hearsay but also in the mainstream press https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/06/24/univision-exclusive-on-omar-mateens-secret-gay-life-comes-under-fire/
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Jul 2, 2016 03:26
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This probably isn't the best thread for an in-depth discussion of the motives of the Orlando shooter.
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Jul 2, 2016 03:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:This probably isn't the best thread for an in-depth discussion of the motives of the Orlando shooter.
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Jul 2, 2016 04:58
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I gotta rant a bit on another thing I just found out about my beloved country. Living here as a mostly privileged Ashkenazi Jew, I have this impulse to try and find the good things about Israel. "Hey, at least we have X! Or Y! There's still hope for this country!" Then again and again I find the actual truth of the matter. In this case it's about Women's rights, namely the right to abortion. For a long time I thought that abortion was easily accessible to women here, especially compared to the US. But while technically it's not hard to find a doctor that can perform abortions, a woman who decides to have one has to go to a committee and tell them why she wants to have it, and they decide if she'll be allowed to have it done. Except that since 1979 a woman can't receive permission for socio-economic reasons (ie can't afford to take care of a(nother) baby right now). For a time women would use the claim that the unwanted pregnancy would harm them mentally, which was technically a legitimate reason, but at around 1993 Haredi parties got the department of health to tighten the requirements so women had to show evidence that there'll be harm as a result of the pregnancy. As such, women are actually forced by these circumstances to lie to the committee and claim that the baby is the result of an extra-marital affair, which is still considered a legitimate reason to have an abortion. Sorry if this isn't the right place for this, I haven't seen a women's rights thread and hey, it is about Israel...
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Jul 2, 2016 14:16
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Friendly Factory fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2016 16:24
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This is probably the best thread to ask this in. What are the best sources and works to read about the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and it's fallout? Someone recommended to me "Murder in the name of god" by Michael Karpin and Ina Freidman but I was wondering if there's any companion pieces I should also be looking at.
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Jul 2, 2016 16:39
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 In the Israeli "meet the press" the Minister of Interior Security Gilad Ardan said: Facebook actively sabotages the police's efforts to apprehend terrorists, the the blood of the slain is upon Mark Zuckerberg's hands, beseeches citizens to MUTINY AGAINST FACEBOOK Like, where do they even find these people? Would be pretty awesome of Zuckerberg shuts facebook Israel down until ardan issues an apology. What a complete dunce.
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Jul 2, 2016 17:38
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I gotta rant a bit on another thing I just found out about my beloved country. Everything bad in terms of social domestic policy in Israel can be traced back to the Haredim.
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Jul 2, 2016 17:58
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She needs to put the triple parentheses around her twitter handle to show that she's down with the zionist conspiracy and all that stupid bullshit. Please don't do that if you have a twitter account. Not even in solidarity. It just looks goofy.
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Jul 2, 2016 17:58
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Murder is murder, Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, one does not justify the other if that is what you seem to be struggling with. Murdering children is never justified and should be dealt with in accordance to the moral standards of a modern society in the 21st century, apprehend the felon and bring him to trial, using a military force to collectively punish entire cities for the actions of individuals has nothing to do with law enforcement of justice, you are promoting the rationale of colonialism. team overhead smash posted:No. As mentioned Palestinians have a right to resistance which allows them try and regain their freedom through force of arms. The deciding factor as to the legality/morality of this attack is not which side of the border it occurred on but whether a legitimate military target has been chosen. Under IML Palestinians can target soldiers (or other legitimate targets, which includes some stuff you wouldn't think like tv stations) in Israel or Palestine and can target civilians in neither.
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Jul 2, 2016 19:38
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Dead Reckoning posted:You can't really cut the individual killing away from context though. Hallel Yaffa Ariel wasn't killed over some personal quarrel or in a robbery gone wrong. She was killed by a Palestinian as part of an ongoing series of attacks by Palestinians with the objective of killing Israeli civilians in the context of... whatever you choose to characterize decades of Israeli/Palestinian violence as. It's not comparable to an ordinary criminal homicide, and goes beyond a basic law enforcement matter. And israeli violence against palestinians is equally horrible, no?
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Jul 2, 2016 21:19
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Israeli violence against Palestinians, on the other hand, is fundamentally moral because the Israeli are successfully stealing more and more land.
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Jul 2, 2016 21:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
It's the natural result of blaming the last year or so of terrorism on social media, and using that as an excuse to call for the deletion of pro-Palestinian posts and pages and groups. When Facebook and the rest refuse or ignore those demands, it's cast as them backing terrorists and being biased against Israel.
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Jul 2, 2016 22:40
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Ultramega posted:And israeli violence against palestinians is equally horrible, no? I'll never understand the blatant double standard of people who constantly condemn Palestinian violence while completely ignoring, if not justifying, Israeli violence. Like I mentioned in a past post, I think part of it is the perception that violence committed by a military is somehow "cleaner" and less immoral than violence committed by individuals. (The other part of it is racism.)
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Jul 3, 2016 00:28
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Ytlaya posted:Like I mentioned in a past post, I think part of it is the perception that violence committed by a military is somehow "cleaner" and less immoral than violence committed by individuals.
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Jul 3, 2016 01:11
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Dead Reckoning posted:You can't really cut the individual killing away from context though. Hallel Yaffa Ariel wasn't killed over some personal quarrel or in a robbery gone wrong. She was killed by a Palestinian as part of an ongoing series of attacks by Palestinians with the objective of killing Israeli civilians in the context of... whatever you choose to characterize decades of Israeli/Palestinian violence as. It's not comparable to an ordinary criminal homicide, and goes beyond a basic law enforcement matter. Adding the context is exactly what they were doing though. it isn't merely Israel/Palestinian violence. There is mutual violence between Israelis and Palestinians. A spate of stabbings of Israelis by Palestinians here, a dozen Palestinian civilians blown up by Israeli bombs there. However to treat it as just that does a disservice to the lopsided nature of the conflict, even beyond the asymmetric nature of the conflict. The driving force in the conflict is the continual war crimes committed against the entire populace of the OPT. I'm being literal there. I don't mean simply mean the regular war crimes that are omitted against some, like the killings of innocents civilians of the people used as human shields. I'm not talking about the continual war crimes that are committed against a fraction of the populace like imprisonment without trial or torture. It's the fact that the entire population of the OPT is under an illegal occupation which does not hold to the Geneva Convention or other relevant standards of IML and is oppressing and impoverishing them constantly in a host of ways. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "goes beyond a basic law enforcement matter" because if you mean what they should do on an individual basis to acts of violence like this, Israel already acts beyond what is militarily enforceable too (See for instance imprisonment without trial, torture, collective punishment, etc) and that is very much part of the problem as well as being inherently immoral so I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting. If you mean as a large-scale solution to the overall problem of conflict, well that's ending the occupation which serves as the underlying basis of the violence and that means dealing with the points emanresu tnuocca raised. Although you complain about context, it seems to be you who isn't taking into account he context of the killings. quote:Given that you've previously argued that military actions need to be considered in light of larger jus ad bellum issues, the Palestinian "right to resistance" should be limited by the LOAC considerations applied to other actors. It is generally considered immoral to take military action which has no reasonable chance of achieving its objectives, or to prolong a conflict after all possibility of achieving military objectives has been lost, because even if jus in bello principles are strictly followed, it results in unnecessary deaths on both sides. Palestinian violence against Israelis is fundamentally immoral on this basis; it causes death and suffering, but has no chance of accomplishing any legitimate military objective. I agree with the principles, but those principles don't apply to the Palestinians. In these situations the idea behind the military force isn't to defeat Israel in battle and dictate terms to them because that is clearly unfeasible. Rather it is to put pressure on Israel to agree to a political accord. This is the time tested behaviour of resistance organisations to military forces they can't hope to openly defeat like the Nationalists in Ireland or the ANC in South Africa. This is somewhat muddled because the stated goals of some militants and militant groups is clearly unfeasible - for instance Hamas's charter talking about taking back over the land of Israel - but they don't represent all Palestinian militants and even then if they were acting within the confines of IML then it would still work towards that feasible and moral goal regardless of the goal of each individual. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jul 3, 2016 |
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Jul 3, 2016 01:20
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Dead Reckoning posted:The idea that violence committed by organized, identified, accountable agents of the state is better than violence committed by random private individuals is hardly strange nor novel. Like, there's a reason no one bats an eye if the sheriff's deputies take someone to jail on a theft charge, but for some reason you'll get in trouble if you, Jim, and Bob decide to chain a guy up in Bob's basement for stealing from you. Please clarify your position regarding israeli violence directed at palestinians. I'm leaning toward the "you don't give a gently caress beyond paying lip service to sounding even-handed" but I don't want to speak for someone else.
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Jul 3, 2016 01:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:The idea that violence committed by organized, identified, accountable agents of the state is better than violence committed by random private individuals is hardly strange nor novel. Like, there's a reason no one bats an eye if the sheriff's deputies take someone to jail on a theft charge, but for some reason you'll get in trouble if you, Jim, and Bob decide to chain a guy up in Bob's basement for stealing from you. You're talking about accountable, morally justified states, not ethnic supremacist, colonial apartheid states
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Jul 3, 2016 01:45
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Dead Reckoning posted:The idea that violence committed by organized, identified, accountable agents of the state is better than violence committed by random private individuals is hardly strange nor novel. Like, there's a reason no one bats an eye if the sheriff's deputies take someone to jail on a theft charge, but for some reason you'll get in trouble if you, Jim, and Bob decide to chain a guy up in Bob's basement for stealing from you. lol if you think israel and its army is accountable for its actions
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Jul 3, 2016 01:55
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Jul 3, 2016 04:33
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Ytlaya posted:I'll never understand the blatant double standard of people who constantly condemn Palestinian violence while completely ignoring, if not justifying, Israeli violence. Like I mentioned in a past post, I think part of it is the perception that violence committed by a military is somehow "cleaner" and less immoral than violence committed by individuals. You're completely ignoring intentionality. It's fine to say that dead kids are dead kids whatever the reason, but that's not what you're saying, you're refusing to argue and smearing anyone who disagrees with you. There's a metric fuckton of racism and violence on the Palestinian side, and it can't be handwaved away by Saeb Erekat style arguments that occupation gives them a free pass to commit any horrible crime under the sun. icantfindaname posted:You're talking about accountable, morally justified states, not ethnic supremacist, colonial apartheid states It's quite clear that Palestinian violence is driven by ethnic supremacism.
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Jul 3, 2016 05:19
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