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computer parts posted:Most modern European nations only really date from the 1870s. Like "shared cultural heritage" or not, at the very least Italy and Germany as we know them didn't really exist until after the American Civil War. I guess you were under the impression I suggested that the government of Alfred the Great lives on in the Westminster system? My entire point was exactly the opposite of that though - in contrast to the US.
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Jul 3, 2016 16:34
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Kilroy posted:That doesn't really contradict anything I said. Yeah, the French tend to think de Gaulle was a good President, but they don't deify him like the Americans deify George Washington - and Joan of Arc is a literal saint, but her political views had and have gently caress all to do with the workings of the Fifth Republic. It actually does, since people didn't actually deify Washington (or if they did, they sure as gently caress didn't deify Adams/Jefferson/et all) in 1816. Come back 50 years from now, and you'll probably hear Spanish conservatives saying how Juan Carlos was a great man and his only flaw was bowing to those environmentalist liberals.
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Jul 3, 2016 16:46
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computer parts posted:It actually does, since people didn't actually deify Washington (or if they did, they sure as gently caress didn't deify Adams/Jefferson/et all) in 1816. Like, I'm not suggesting that Americans have some sort of mutant gene that makes them more susceptible to this poo poo. It isn't some law of physics that Americans have to lionize the founders of their government and give their legal and philosophical opinions such a great deal of weight when figuring out what to do in this, TYOOL 2016. They just happen to be more susceptible to it now, and that is because the people they deify literally wrote the loving law in the first place, as opposed to most "heroes" anywhere else, who generally did not occupy the highest positions of power in their current government, when they were alive, nor personally wrote the founding legal document. But I tell you what I will post again in this thread in July 2066 (I'm pretty sure it'll still be active) and we can confirm that things have, in fact, changed in the fifty years between this discussion and then.
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Jul 3, 2016 16:55
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Kilroy posted:It's not fifty years from now, though. We're comparing Americans now with other nations and societies, now. Yes, and my point is that European nations are not old enough to get the same relations to their founder that Americans have now. Most of them are young enough that the founders are either still living or only one generation removed. The primary exception being the UK, whose system of government was established a fairly long time ago. But even then they prove my point, since they venerate the gently caress out of the Queen.
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Jul 3, 2016 16:56
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Jurgan posted:At what point did people on this board start using "autistic" as a go-to insult, and how much longer until they stop? Right around the time people learn the difference between its and it's. So, never.
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Jul 3, 2016 16:56
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computer parts posted:Yes, and my point is that European nations are not old enough to get the same relations to their founder that Americans have now. Most of them are young enough that the founders are either still living or only one generation removed. Well in England's defense the queen seems to be pretty alright. She's also been there for a long drat time. While everything else has been changing she's still there like a rock of stability you can anchor things to.
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Jul 3, 2016 17:09
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Kilroy posted:But I tell you what I will post again in this thread in July 2066 (I'm pretty sure it'll still be active) and we can confirm that things have, in fact, changed in the fifty years between this discussion and then. Shows what you know; when Trump gets elected, he'll outlaw the internet for making it too easy for people to slander his hands.
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Jul 3, 2016 17:18
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Keeshhound posted:Shows what you know; when Trump gets elected, he'll outlaw the internet for making it too easy for people to slander his hands. It's ironic since he can't even hit Ctrl+Alt+Delete without the assistance of a third hand.
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Jul 3, 2016 17:27
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I listened to that Stuart Varney clip. He just reads like the type of guy that would have been tarred and feather during the American Revolution or sent to the Guillotine during the French revolution. It's on that level of sheer contempt for the lower and middle class. It's not even coming from a naive "bootstraps" narrative that many conservatives and libertarians truly believe in. Many of those I've met aren't doing it out of malice, but rather out of being naive. Varney? Dude's doing out of pure spite and hatred. how has there NOT been a major political change in this country at this point? Seriously?
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Jul 3, 2016 17:57
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Josef bugman posted:Could you elaborate? Or do you have a link to somewhere to read more about how the Armenian Genocide allowed for modern turkey? I'd be interested in hearing about it! I don't have particular book recommendations or anything, but I would look at the Turkish War of Independence and Turkish nationalist ideology to learn more. The Turkish historiography generally portrays the war as the Turkish nation heroically defeating the evil invaders of Britain, France and Russia and their treacherous Greek and Armenian fifth columnists within. Territorially speaking Turkey would have been 1/3 or so smaller under the Treaty of Sevres to the benefit of Greek and Armenian states. The Turkish national identity which is then constructed by the Republican government after the war is more or less designed in explicit contrast to the former Christian minorities, with a long-term effort to instill a 'mercantile spirit' in the Turkish population and to get rid of and seize/nationalize the property the Greeks and Armenians who remained in Istanbul, which was mostly unaffected by the genocides, and who still played an outsized role as the mercantile bourgeoisie of the empire and then republic. The result of this is that a huge chunk of the wealth behind the Turkish economy is descended from that stolen from the Greek, Armenian, (and also Jewish) middle classes during and after the war. The old Turkish presidential mansion is literally the estate of a wealthy Armenian businessman, for example https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87ankaya_Mansion quote:The land upon which the Çankaya Mansion now stands was a vineyard that belonged to Ohannes Kasabian, an Armenian jeweller and merchant.[5][6] The vineyard and house were confiscated by the Bulgurluzâde family after the Kasabian family fled Ankara to escape the Armenian Genocide and settled in the relative safety of Constantinople.[5] When Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who would later become the first president of the Republic of Turkey, saw the building in 1921, he took a strong liking to the property and bought it from Bulgurluzâde Tevfik Efendi for 4,500 Turkish lira.[6][7][8] icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jul 3, 2016 |
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Jul 3, 2016 18:14
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FuzzySkinner posted:how has there NOT been a major political change in this country at this point? Seriously? Temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Enough people believe that they'll be rich executives one day if they work hard enough that they're rabidly opposed to taxes so they don't have to pay them when they get there. That and just good old fashioned FYGM. Enough people are still doing OK that they aren't interested in any change. It also doesn't help that the strongest voting bloc in america by percentage of the demographic that shows up is old white people that hate change. A lot of it is cultural too; America as a sociery has a raging bones for the myth of the rugged individual who built this company from the ground up with his bare hands. Ignoring that that is, you know, a myth. Nobody does anything totally alone.
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Jul 3, 2016 19:31
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ToxicSlurpee posted:A lot of it is cultural too; America as a sociery has a raging bones for the myth of the rugged individual who built this company from the ground up with his bare hands. Ignoring that that is, you know, a myth. Nobody does anything totally alone. 
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Jul 3, 2016 19:42
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Enough people believe that they'll be rich executives one day if they work hard enough that they're rabidly opposed to taxes so they don't have to pay them when they get there. That and just good old fashioned FYGM. Enough people are still doing OK that they aren't interested in any change. It also doesn't help that the strongest voting bloc in america by percentage of the demographic that shows up is old white people that hate change. It's just frustrating to me that these assholes get away with this poo poo. I think the most angry I've ever got was when Neil Cavuto was indirectly blaming unemployment of millennials on the poo poo job parents were doing. I'm just stunned that someone like my father, who I really admire and respect just sat there soaking in this garbage. Like how does one sit down and nod in agreement with these poo poo arguments? "Oh no! It's not OUR fault that our policies led to a decrease in opportunities for millions of americans, an increased disparity in wealth between classes, and such. NO, IT'S YOUR FAULT! YOU DIDN'T TEACH YOUR CHILDREN TO WORK HARD ENOUGH!" National Review showed their true colors when Trump got the nomination and actually started to blame the problems of the rust belt on the people inhabiting those places themselves. I just wonder if at some point there will be a significant group of people to tell these people to gently caress off.
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Jul 3, 2016 19:55
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FuzzySkinner posted:I just wonder if at some point there will be a significant group of people to tell these people to gently caress off. There will be, especially in places like the rust belt. The old white people that hate change and anybody darker than they are are dying off. Meanwhile their children and especially grandchildren are finding a system that is stacked against them something fierce. Before too long whites won't be a majority anymore. Aside from that white youth is becoming more liberal anyway. Politically this is the last chance of the hard right to seize power and they know it. If they can weasel in enough dirty tricks they can enslave the rest of us. However despite the propaganda the young are seeing how badly they're getting dicked over, especially on student debt. It's getting worse and I imagine the young are going to flock to whoever promises them debt relief and jobs, which won't be the GOP.
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Jul 3, 2016 20:25
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icantfindaname posted:I don't have particular book recommendations or anything, but I would look at the Turkish War of Independence and Turkish nationalist ideology to learn more. The Turkish historiography generally portrays the war as the Turkish nation heroically defeating the evil invaders of Britain, France and Russia and their treacherous Greek and Armenian fifth columnists within. Territorially speaking Turkey would have been 1/3 or so smaller under the Treaty of Sevres to the benefit of Greek and Armenian states. The Turkish national identity which is then constructed by the Republican government after the war is more or less designed in explicit contrast to the former Christian minorities, with a long-term effort to instill a 'mercantile spirit' in the Turkish population and to get rid of and seize/nationalize the property the Greeks and Armenians who remained in Istanbul, which was mostly unaffected by the genocides, and who still played an outsized role as the mercantile bourgeoisie of the empire and then republic. The result of this is that a huge chunk of the wealth behind the Turkish economy is descended from that stolen from the Greek, Armenian, (and also Jewish) middle classes during and after the war. The old Turkish presidential mansion is literally the estate of a wealthy Armenian businessman, for example Oh, I think I know how this works. Let me guess: "Why are you blaming me for the genocide? I wasn't even alive when it happened and neither were you! Seems to me like you're the racist one for always bringing up the past. Me, I judge people by their character, not their ethnicity.  "
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Jul 3, 2016 20:39
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Abraham Lincoln was born in a log cabin he built with his own hands.
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Jul 3, 2016 20:41
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Jurgan posted:Oh, I think I know how this works. Let me guess: "Why are you blaming me for the genocide? I wasn't even alive when it happened and neither were you! Seems to me like you're the racist one for always bringing up the past. Me, I judge people by their character, not their ethnicity. The Turkish government line is actually much worse than that, it's basically that the Armenians were traitors and deserved what they got. They spend tens of millions of dollars a year on PR campaigns to promote that view You do see that opinion on reddit fairly often though when the topic comes up in the news
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Jul 3, 2016 20:47
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ToxicSlurpee posted:There will be, especially in places like the rust belt. The old white people that hate change and anybody darker than they are are dying off. Meanwhile their children and especially grandchildren are finding a system that is stacked against them something fierce. Before too long whites won't be a majority anymore. Aside from that white youth is becoming more liberal anyway. They are also seeing that despite their best efforts, Obama has seen a decent reputation and people are starting to see where the blame really lies in all the failures in accomplishing thing actually lies. Which is why they are so desperate to find something, anything to put a stop to this and keep their chokehold on the nation's politics by any means necessary. Even if it means embracing actual Nazis and an orange conman.
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Jul 3, 2016 22:26
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ToxicSlurpee posted:There will be, especially in places like the rust belt. The old white people that hate change and anybody darker than they are are dying off. Meanwhile their children and especially grandchildren are finding a system that is stacked against them something fierce. Before too long whites won't be a majority anymore. Aside from that white youth is becoming more liberal anyway. I wouldn't say it's the last chance because they already have burgeoning base in the alt-right only they don't try the Atwater dog whistle strategy. They've very up front with their racism and biases and as long as disaffected white people and token minorities flock to their banner it will remain as a significant part of the hard right ethos.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:01
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The republicans probably have one more realistic shot at the presidency in 2020 before being relegated to a state level party without realignment
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Jul 3, 2016 23:22
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A lot of the so-called "alt-right" people actually seem to be young dudes whose brains have been scrambled by too much Internet, but on the other hand I don't think there are enough of them to be much of a voting bloc.
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Jul 4, 2016 00:05
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tacodaemon posted:A lot of the so-called "alt-right" people actually seem to be young dudes whose brains have been scrambled by too much Internet, but on the other hand I don't think there are enough of them to be much of a voting bloc. There are times when I find myself wondering if I would have wound up similarly if not for the total chunderfuck of Iraq War II: The Legend of Saddam's
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Jul 4, 2016 00:18
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Dr Christmas posted:I'm trying to think of something equivalent to the way American conservatives get mad about people pointing out the flaws of Columbus or the founding fathers. Are there British people who get mad about people talking about Henry VIII's wives? One of the two most likely people to succeed Cameron as PM thinks british history education should teach students that the empire was good and cool so yeah
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Jul 4, 2016 00:46
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Good Citizen posted:The republicans probably have one more realistic shot at the presidency in 2020 before being relegated to a state level party without realignment Good call. The best thing the Republicans could've done for their party's future was to somehow give Cruz the nomination, knowing this would cede this election to Hillary Clinton. Then after the Canadian Cuban loses in November, the moderates would have the perfect opportunity to ditch the Tea Party and the religious whackos once and for all. "We tried it your way, and you drove the party too far to the right. We've alienated and demonized too many groups, like women, Hispanics, gays, blacks, and Muslims. The only groups we can count on were the evangelicals and angry white men, which marginalized the party." Then they'd have 4 years to pick up the pieces and return to being the party of low taxes, limited government, and fiscal conservatism. If they're smart they'll stop using wedge issues like gay marriage and drop the homophobic rhetoric, too.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:16
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Geostomp posted:They are also seeing that despite their best efforts, Obama has seen a decent reputation and people are starting to see where the blame really lies in all the failures in accomplishing thing actually lies. Which is why they are so desperate to find something, anything to put a stop to this and keep their chokehold on the nation's politics by any means necessary. Even if it means embracing actual Nazis and an orange conman. Are you sure about that? I'm not seeing any significant evidence that people are waking up to "where the blame really lies." I see slow forward progress, with the regressive right shrinking very slowly, but also becoming more compact, more angry, and louder. What do you consider to be examples of people starting to change their perception of who bears responsibility for various societal ills? Watching the right be forced to put their eggs in the Trump basket has been one of my favorite things during this election cycle. The slavering, racist, xenophobic base the Republican party has been cultivating for the past several decades is clamoring for Trump, but I've noticed a distinct and amusing reluctance on the part of the establishment Republicans. I am constantly hearing "endorsements" that are really just, "Well, it's him or Hillary." Six months ago, I was skeptical when I heard people talking about how the establishment Republicans have lost control of their party. Now, I think it's true. The Republican base has slipped the surly bonds of reality to kiss the face of Donald loving Trump. It's hilarious to watch. The best part is watching the extremist conservative shitlord mouthpieces turn on their masters. The Republicans put literal crazy people in charge of their messaging, and now the crazy people have gone rogue. The mouthpieces are spending nearly as much time attacking the Republican leaders for not being true conservatives as they are spending making GBS threads on HIllary. If they don't pull off some kind of miracle in November, I think they are going to spend years recovering from this election. Edit: King Possum III posted:If they're smart they'll stop using wedge issues like gay marriage and drop the homophobic rhetoric, too. I'm not sure they can. Maybe I'm just letting my constant exposure to right-wing talk radio color my perception, but I think they've allowed their voters to go so far into extremist territory that trying to back off, now, would have a real chance of instigating a schism that would result in an actual third party. Centripetal Horse fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 01:17
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King Possum III posted:Good call. The thing is, the party released a report after the 2012 election that recommended doing exactly that, and the establishment either weren't able to push it through, or were still too enthralled by the easy support they got by encouraging shitheads. They've known what the solution to their electability problems was for at least four years and they still couldn't turn it around.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:23
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Yeah, there will be no easy transition for the Republican Party, that is crystal clear.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:27
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ToxicSlurpee posted:There will be, especially in places like the rust belt. The old white people that hate change and anybody darker than they are are dying off. Meanwhile their children and especially grandchildren are finding a system that is stacked against them something fierce. Before too long whites won't be a majority anymore. Aside from that white youth is becoming more liberal anyway. I've met some god honest trump supporters who are supporting him because they're beyond pissed at money in politics, the recent trade deals and other things of that note. (yes, not all of them come from the "gently caress Mexicans" perspective) 'I'm just angry. I can't believe that these companies get away with this crap. These should be jobs for  in "I think the true conservatives are going to no longer be a thing in the near future. I think we'll see racism and nationalism continue to be a thing (sadly), but it won't be combined with some idiotic ayn rand biblethumper masterbatory fantasy like we'v seen since Barry Goldwater.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:28
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I'm sure they'll be super lovely at Newton "NAFTA is the way forward, I love NAFTA" Gingrich being the VP pick then #EconomicAnxiety
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Jul 4, 2016 01:34
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Epic High Five posted:I'm sure they'll be super lovely at Newton "NAFTA is the way forward, I love NAFTA" Gingrich being the VP pick then http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/newt-gingrich-trump-trade-vice-president-225035 quote:I basically agree with Trump’s speech on trade.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:36
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Aliquid posted:http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/newt-gingrich-trump-trade-vice-president-225035 Yeah, and to his credit he saw this curveball coming. The question is, will he be enveloped by the sphere of nothing matter that protects Trump from collapse, if not from unending criticism
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Jul 4, 2016 01:52
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Aliquid posted:http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/newt-gingrich-trump-trade-vice-president-225035 Newt, like Christie, Huckabee and most of the others high profile trumpists need trump as a way back into power. Most of them are either ex-somethings or Soon to be Ex-somethings. they view trump as their last big shot at power.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:06
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keeshhound posted:
I think homophobia will be around at some level for a long time to come. But unless they're in the company of like-minded friends, these bigots will mostly keep their views to themselves. The social consequences are increasingly high, and not tolerated the way it used to be. But they'll continue to be very brave online.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:19
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King Possum III posted:Good call.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:29
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Jurgan posted:Abraham Lincoln was born in a log cabin he built with his own hands. Its construction was immaculate. ... ... ... 
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Jul 4, 2016 03:39
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I'm watching "COPS" for the first time since I've really become more of a liberal socially. Holy hell...The War on Drugs is a loving disaster. I saw people arrested for possession and it's just bizarrely stunning. Like wouldn't rehabilitation be more effective than the cops slamming them on the ground and violating their civil liberties? What in the gently caress is wrong with this country.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:47
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FuzzySkinner posted:I'm watching "COPS" for the first time since I've really become more of a liberal socially. The War on Drugs serves the one-two punch purpose of removing "undesirables" from society and stripping their right to vote, and giving the United States a convenient way to send a bunch of money to right-wing puppet regimes in South and Central America who will look the other way when American companies abuse their peoples. The whole "America supports legalizing weed" thing is if anything a huge victory for the neoliberals who implemented the War on Drugs, since they can allow weed to be legitimized and still gently caress over their chosen targets by keeping things like cocaine illegal. Edit: That said, I too recently had the "privilege" of watching COPS, with my conservative grandparents (and liberal girlfriend), also for the first time since I became politically aware, and my takeaway from the show, more than anything, was to become deeply paranoid over my girlfriend or I getting pulled over and having the cops be unnecessarily aggressive towards us. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 04:00
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Lightning Knight posted:The whole "America supports legalizing weed" thing is if anything a huge victory for the neoliberals who implemented the War on Drugs, since they can allow weed to be legitimized and still gently caress over their chosen targets by keeping things like cocaine illegal. Is your stance on drug de-prohibition "all at once or never"?
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Jul 4, 2016 04:06
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Kilroy posted:As opposed to what - keeping it illegal? More people use weed than cocaine - legalizing weed means less people to gently caress over and less people to target for selective enforcement of the law. It is a good thing. No, I support legalizing it and I don't think we need to do everything at once, though I wouldn't be opposed to that. I suppose I should rephrase and say, it's a victory for them because they know what once weed is legal and legitimized like tobacco or alcohol, selling the public on making something like cocaine or meth legal (or at least decriminalized and shifted towards medical rehabilitation, no jail time) twenty or thirty years from now is going to be an incredibly uphill battle. I should say that I don't actually support people using cocaine, but I don't think that using cocaine (assuming you don't proceed to try and operate a vehicle) should be a crime. At worst it should result in a trip to the rehab clinic. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 04:08
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Kilroy posted:As opposed to what - keeping it illegal? More people use weed than cocaine - legalizing weed means less people to gently caress over and less people to target for selective enforcement of the law. It is a good thing. weed is already de facto legal for white people so long as you try to be subtle about it
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Jul 4, 2016 04:12
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