|
Avasculous posted:And where the gently caress are the rebels getting Steam Tanks and Demigryphs? This is downright silly.
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
It shouldn't surprise you that rebels are doing well against the empire
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 19:20
|
|
|
It's especially dumb when you don't have access to those units. Rebels should really only have access to units a tier lower than the owner of the province or at the very least be limited to using the same poo poo you have. Being able to farm high level artillery through rebels is absurd.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 19:40
|
|
|
Avasculous posted:Is it just me, or is lategame Empire mind-numbingly tedious? Curious what the justification for confederation penalties are, other than "confederation would be too viable without making everyone hate you". I have the Norscan nerf mod installed and I haven't even seen them yet at turn ~40.  It really is the best.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 19:41
|
|
|
Because there has to be some consequence to the player potentially increasing their territory by like 50%. It mimics the discord any takeover has and feels right. Once again, consider your actions before you make them, the game shouldn't be without consequences. Ive never seen rebels spawn with steam tanks, that's surprising. But I don't have much problems with public order. Empire (all factions besides chaos really) should prioritize order, then security (meaning all potentially vulnerable towns have l2 gates/walls) then growth. This is different than other TW games because of the value of walls in settlements. Open field battles with your garrison defending are almost always disastrous while wall defences can handle 2x-3x odds. Only large stacks should be a genuine threat to you with walls and they will often buy you enough time to respond. I have to wonder if you guys are building multiple recruitment centers? You shouldn't have more than 2, maybe 3 by end-game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 20:18
|
|
|
Avasculous posted:Is it just me, or is lategame Empire mind-numbingly tedious? I'm slogging through the Dwarf endgame on VH right now, which requires me to basically murder or subjugate every other dwarf faction because the grand alliance of shorties fell apart 5 turns after Chaos died even with me desperately throwing money at dudes I've been allied with the entire game up to this point. I understand the point of the endgame is supposed to be maximum back-stabbity, but it would probably be better if same-race factions got a lesser version of the diplomatic penalty so you didn't have to go suddenly Hitler every time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 20:20
|
|
|
Aurubin posted:I meant intentionally, and not with artillery. Skaven have a rule where they can shoot through their weakest units as if they weren't there. I know they do. And you can do it with dwarfs now. Put a row of thunderers behind a row of warriors and when the warriors get attacked, order your thunderers to fire at the attacker. They will, and they'll hit a lot more warriors than enemies, but they will still fire.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 20:37
|
|
|
I don't really understand why public order is such a problem for you guys. All the factors are almost 100% predictable, and you will usually build up a buffer of public order so it takes oddles of time before you need to act, and you can always do tax exemptions/move armies or agents around to deal with the issue. In terms of the confederation penalty, just don't confederate if any of your provinces is below -60 public order, or if you have a same-race faction at 50 or less relationship that you don't wanna fight.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 20:38
|
|
|
Fangz posted:I don't really understand why public order is such a problem for you guys. All the factors are almost 100% predictable, and you will usually build up a buffer of public order so it takes oddles of time before you need to act, and you can always do tax exemptions/move armies or agents around to deal with the issue. In terms of the confederation penalty, just don't confederate if any of your provinces is below -60 public order, or if you have a same-race faction at 50 or less relationship that you don't wanna fight. There is a massive difficulty penalty to public order on higher difficulties. On top of that, it seems like every lord will eventually get Harsh (-1 global public order) on top of that, it's very easy where you can't go public order neutral until 2 public order buildings are done or one public order building with no tax. Then if you can't complete a province to use the +4 public order order, that's even worse.This puts you in an uncomfortable position where you need a big army to maintain order. If the chaos invasion happens or if some rear end in a top hat on the border declares war, guess what, your armies have to move and your provinces are at -8 or -10 very quickly. This happened in my recent Empire game where my armies were too busy to go stomp the greenskins so I never got ghal maraz and a lot of new provinces could not get public order stabilized.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 21:01
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:There is a massive difficulty penalty to public order on higher difficulties. On top of that, it seems like every lord will eventually get Harsh (-1 global public order) on top of that, it's very easy where you can't go public order neutral until 2 public order buildings are done or one public order building with no tax. Then if you can't complete a province to use the +4 public order order, that's even worse.This puts you in an uncomfortable position where you need a big army to maintain order. If the chaos invasion happens or if some rear end in a top hat on the border declares war, guess what, your armies have to move and your provinces are at -8 or -10 very quickly. If you haven't secured a province you haven't declared war on enough people 
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 21:08
|
|
|
Ammanas posted:If you haven't secured a province you haven't declared war on enough people Joint wars happen and trade partners are often worth more than completed province.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 21:11
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:Joint wars happen and trade partners are often worth more than completed province. Nope declare war asap the blood god demands blood not treaties
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
Unless the treaties are written in blood on the skin of your enemies. Thats ok
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:There is a massive difficulty penalty to public order on higher difficulties. On top of that, it seems like every lord will eventually get Harsh (-1 global public order) on top of that, it's very easy where you can't go public order neutral until 2 public order buildings are done or one public order building with no tax. Then if you can't complete a province to use the +4 public order order, that's even worse.This puts you in an uncomfortable position where you need a big army to maintain order. If the chaos invasion happens or if some rear end in a top hat on the border declares war, guess what, your armies have to move and your provinces are at -8 or -10 very quickly. If you have an army sitting in a province keeping public order for anything other than a very temporary stopover, you have truly hosed up strategically. An army is costing you upkeep of at least 2000 per turn. That's more than the cost of one tap room per turn. Build that drat tap room and get your army to do something useful that will pay for it. (Say, sending them to stomp greenskins to get you that ghal maraz...) If you're out of slots, trash that economic building if you have to. It's unlikely to be making you the 2000/turn that is paying upkeep on that army you have sitting useless. And before you say but but difficulty penalties, not really. The difference between normal and very hard is -4 public order. That's a single tap room per province. You shouldn't ever get into the position where some strategic change can lead to an unplanned-for rebellion. EDIT: I don't know why people are getting all those Harsh traits for lords. Checked through my roster on my lategame Empire campaign and literally none of my lords have it. Fangz fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jul 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 21:52
|
|
|
Fangz posted:If you have an army sitting in a province keeping public order for anything other than a very temporary stopover, you have truly hosed up strategically. An army is costing you upkeep of at least 2000 per turn. That's more than the cost of one tap room per turn. Build that drat tap room and get your army to do something useful that will pay for it. (Say, sending them to stomp greenskins to get you that ghal maraz...) If you're out of slots, trash that economic building if you have to. It's unlikely to be making you the 2000/turn that is paying upkeep on that army you have sitting useless. Yeah the only time a stack should be camping a province is to reinforce itself post battle or be a vanguard on a vulnerable front. Build a general with public order bonuses and a few spearmen if you need pacification for a bit. Otherwise buildings + edicts.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 21:59
|
|
|
Fangz posted:
I think executing captives does this.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:04
|
|
|
Executing captives gives you a chance (and it's high, about 20%) to get Unjust, which is -1 global public order, and Untrustworthy, which is -5% income in local province (eventually evolves into Dishonest and then Deceiver, -10% and -15% respectively).
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:09
|
|
|
What the gently caress else are you supposed to do with your captives? I mean, releasing a bunch of orcs, undead or chaos warrior just seems like a bad idea.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:16
|
|
|
Ammanas posted:Yeah the only time a stack should be camping a province is to reinforce itself post battle or be a vanguard on a vulnerable front. Build a general with public order bonuses and a few spearmen if you need pacification for a bit. Otherwise buildings + edicts. I've had success with a stack full of public order zombies for VCs just because they take a while for corruption to spin up and it's better than an actually good army spending time stationary.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:20
|
|
|
Sjonnar posted:Executing captives gives you a chance (and it's high, about 20%) to get Unjust, which is -1 global public order, and Untrustworthy, which is -5% income in local province (eventually evolves into Dishonest and then Deceiver, -10% and -15% respectively). E: Oh, you were talking about traits not rep. Nope, mannfred von carstein is still gandhi as far as his subjects are concerned over a hundred turns in. About forty battles or so and always murdering or dominating captives.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:21
|
|
|
There any good agent mods for the latest patch, or did the patch do enough to fix agents swarming over your lands and spamming actions against you?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:26
|
|
|
Finally finished a campaign properly (VH/H), abandoned all my others once I defeated chaos. Was playing as chaos this time and decided to go all the way, I agree it's ridiculous how tiny the campaign win screen is considering it felt pretty epic actually finishing one. I subjugated Varg and Skaeling ~ turn 50, they were still my vassals around turn 160 when i finished. They didn't achieve a whole lot, but did constantly attack Nordland/Kislev for the entire game which kept them busy. Kislev did amazing well considering I rampaged through and razed Praag and Kislev early on my way to the empire. They rebuilt and were still alive when I finished the campaign (though I did send a stack to raze Kislev again on principal). I think my biggest issue with the campaign at the moment is the ai's inability to form max tier armies. I took my time working on the empire which left the dwarfs and Brettonia alone for a good 110+ turns. Dwarfs got pretty beat up by the Greenskins but Brettonia had the entire southern area as well as Marienburg. I left them for last and expected quite a challenge. I know they aren't finished, but I at least expected a bunch of grail knights and pegasus knights or something. Instead you have men at arms, a bunch of heroes and maybe a few high tier units sprinkled in. This is against level 30 Kholek with 2 giants, 3 shaggoths, exalted hero, sorcerer, 3 hell cannons and the rest chosen. I don't expect them to be able to beat that but I didn't even get 1 good battle. Taking altdorf was basically the only good late game battle I got since it comes with siege tanks and demis. Can't wait for some more content in this game, think I'm at like 100 hours already. Would happily pay out the nose for some good new stuff at this point, the games great. Oh and one question, Mannfred kept asking me to dissolve my vassalship with Skaeling (he was number 1 or 2 power, the other being myself but he loved me for destroying all his enemies). Would this be because he wants to war them but not me? Thought it was kinda cool to see some diplomacy rather than him just declaring war on both of us which would have ended poorly for him. jpparker55 fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jul 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:26
|
|
|
Looking at the files, the way traits work is that Unjust/Harsh results from slaughter/take on captives (i.e. to replenish) following battles. Actions give 10% chance of gaining a point in each trait, and you get the trait after 2 points. So, um yeah, release captives if you can. Especially since releasing can give you positive traits like Kind and Honest. (+1 public order in all provinces!!!!)
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:52
|
|
|
I almost never release captives because it gives a diplomatic penalty with everyone who is at war with the faction you've defeated. The last thing I want is for all of my allies to start hating me. It's pretty great against rebels though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 22:56
|
|
|
Avasculous posted:It feels like Confederation is supposed to make this smoother, but between the huge relations hit and empire-wide public order drain, I'm wondering if it would have been more efficient to just murder everyone. Try building up one of the other empire factions by supporting their wars, then once you get the late-game diplo buff confederate them to acquire a huge chunk of territory all at once.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:00
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Looking at the files, the way traits work is that Unjust/Harsh results from slaughter/take on captives (i.e. to replenish) following battles. Actions give 10% chance of gaining a point in each trait, and you get the trait after 2 points. So, um yeah, release captives if you can. Especially since releasing can give you positive traits like Kind and Honest. (+1 public order in all provinces!!!!) is there a chart or guide to these somewhere?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:06
|
|
|
The complaint wasn't that rebels spawn with steam tanks and it's hard, it's that they regularly spawn with poo poo the player doesn't have access to and it's dumb. On my last vhard Empire run I was deliberately letting reikland rebel so I could capture great cannons and whatnot without having to tech up to them. Rebels in general are a positive thing because you can use them as punching bags for xp/loot.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:11
|
|
|
TheChad posted:The complaint wasn't that rebels spawn with steam tanks and it's hard, it's that they regularly spawn with poo poo the player doesn't have access to and it's dumb. On my last vhard Empire run I was deliberately letting reikland rebel so I could capture great cannons and whatnot without having to tech up to them. Why should rebels only spawn with stuff you have? It's not like they are recruiting out of your barracks. Hieronymous Alloy posted:is there a chart or guide to these somewhere? Nah, but I dumped the relevant script file here: http://pastebin.com/xhcbRQwQ There's probably events and stuff that can also add traits. Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jul 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:18
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Why should rebels only spawn with stuff you have? It's not like they are recruiting out of your barracks. They are local rebels and how do they get their hands on this stuff otherwise?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:23
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Why should rebels only spawn with stuff you have? It's not like they are recruiting out of your barracks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:23
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:They are local rebels and how do they get their hands on this stuff otherwise? Cheap (if shoddy) Kislev-produced steam tanks are all over the black market
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
TheChad posted:The complaint wasn't that rebels spawn with steam tanks and it's hard, it's that they regularly spawn with poo poo the player doesn't have access to and it's dumb. On my last vhard Empire run I was deliberately letting reikland rebel so I could capture great cannons and whatnot without having to tech up to them. To avoid people feeling like they have to demolish every unit recruitment structure in cities that are about to revolt.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
Eh, I wasn't bitching that Public Order is unmanageable, I was bitching that managing it (along with Skaelings, Savage Orcs, and erstwhile allies in 3 directions) in 20+ territories makes the endgame feel way longer and more tedious than I think it should. E.g. confederating ostensibly saves you the trouble of smashing every last 2-territory faction, but you need so much downtime to stabilize provinces (newly-conquered, corruption, raided, events) if you don't want to get punched in the dick by rebels and turncoat allies that it feels moot. I'm close to ending the game, but I feel like all of the real threats were eliminated 50+ turns ago and I've spent the remaining time dealing with not-so-fun speedbumps that the game throws at you to 'prevent' 4x snowballing. It would be nice if either: -Confederation penalty scaled to the relative sizes of territory. I.e. annexing someone 1/10th your size doesn't torch your diplomatic relations and throw your realm into turmoil for 10 (?) turns, but doubling your size does. -Rebels were not consistently capable of crushing upgraded defenses/garrisons with a few turns of encamped recruiting and/or Norsca didn't roll around with multiple full stacks of upgraded late-game units to 'raid'. Ammanas posted:Yeah the only time a stack should be camping a province is to reinforce itself post battle or be a vanguard on a vulnerable front. Build a general with public order bonuses and a few spearmen if you need pacification for a bit. Otherwise buildings + edicts. As Empire, do you not just have vulnerable fronts in 5 different places? Off the top of my head, I have: -A half-stack in Marienland (?) to defend against the full stack+ of Skaelings that drop in almost every turn. -A half-stack in the Brettonian vassal territories to deal with respawning Savage Orcs and rebellions because the Marienland stack can't leave for 5 minutes without the place burning the gently caress down. -A stack in Ostland/Middenland to deal with Varg and Skaeling raiders. -2 stacks in the East that were conquering Sylvania and are now defending it from the Dwarves who turned on me. Sjonnar posted:Executing captives gives you a chance (and it's high, about 20%) to get Unjust, which is -1 global public order, and Untrustworthy, which is -5% income in local province (eventually evolves into Dishonest and then Deceiver, -10% and -15% respectively). Wait, what? Global? I execute almost everyone unless replenish forces is available, because I was turned off to freeing by a big diplomatic hit in an early game. I don't think this is a problem because I haven't noticed this in the PO breakdowns, but what does everyone else do with prisoners?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
my dad posted:To avoid people feeling like they have to demolish every unit recruitment structure in cities that are about to revolt. I'm talking empire wide, not just the province. It's not game-breaking for me or anything, I just find it silly that the rebels in my empire have access to better tech than I do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:33
|
|
|
My Dwarf campaign got pretty boring. Chaos was wiped out before I was able to bring my armies north. The game makes them look like some insanely threatening faction that will kill everyone, but they just kind of died out trying to siege provincial capitals. Starting a second game as Empire, hopefully it will be more exciting since it's closer to all the action.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:33
|
|
|
TheChad posted:I'm talking empire wide, not just the province. Just goes to show the superiority of the private sector.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:46
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Just goes to show the superiority of the private sector. Just let me capture steam tanks in addition to artillery please.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:53
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:Where are they getting their troops if it's not my troops deserting? Are your troops disappearing? No. I assume the in-universe explanation is (a) privately owned estates and stuff that aren't normally released to you as faction leader or (b) smuggled in stuff from over the border. Note that for example you can train things like Vargheists in a single turn, despite in-lore the process taking literally hundreds of years. Or that you can build a menagerie and pop out all the demigriffs you want. Or that high tier garrisons give you units like steam tanks, reiksguard and mortars despite you not having those buildings. Or that things like Chaos rebellions are things that can happen, despite you never having a chaos recruitment building, and your entire faction are dwarves or orcs. This stuff exists in the province already, it's just not state owned and not released to your command. (FWIW, I've never seen rebels with steam tanks, so I'm not sure what it's based on) Or maybe it's just a game...... Anyway. Looking in the traits trigger file is actually quite interesting. There's actually a number of positive traits triggerable by garrisoning towns with high public order (>40). Conversely, levelling up in a province that has low public order has a chance of giving you nasty global public order debuffs. This might give some pause to guys farming rebels for exp... though it's pretty unlikely at present. Fangz fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jul 4, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:54
|
|
|
I am the god drat emperor and i want my god drat steam tanks but these god drat rebels keep stealing them!
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2016 23:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
my dad posted:To avoid people feeling like they have to demolish every unit recruitment structure in cities that are about to revolt. That'd be an interesting choice actually and would provide an expensive safety valve.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2016 00:13
|
|