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Tarezax posted:So what would be the proper terminology Typical migration and population shifts over decades.
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Jul 3, 2016 19:58
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It's both white flight and gentrification, at least in the areas with minority middle classes
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Jul 3, 2016 19:59
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icantfindaname posted:It's both white flight and gentrification, at least in the areas with minority middle classes Also declining rates of whites isn't white flight if the white people are dying off and not making as new white people.
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Jul 3, 2016 20:03
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Trabisnikof posted:Also declining rates of whites isn't white flight if the white people are dying off and not making as new white people. White genocide then?
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Jul 3, 2016 20:27
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Family Values posted:Gilroy is 58% Latino, so if whites are moving there to have a whites only enclave they must not've looked around or even read the wikipedia article first. Gilroy is weirdly segregated though. It's pretty white the farther west you go. Anything on the east side of Monterey hwy is not only Latino, but majority Spanish speaking. My son was one of just a handful Of white kids at his school on the east side. I showed up for parent teacher night and I heard a girl say to her mom "look mom, there's the English boy."
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Jul 3, 2016 20:40
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silence_kit posted:You aren't understanding that your situation has very little to do with white flight as most people describe it. How do most people describe it? Here's how wikipedia and webster's dictionary define "white flight": wikipedia posted:White flight is a term that originated in the United States, starting in the mid-20th century, and applied to the large-scale migration of people of various European ancestries from racially mixed urban regions to more racially homogeneous suburban or exurban regions. the dictionary posted:the departure of whites from places (as urban neighborhoods or schools) increasingly or predominantly populated by minorities silence_kit posted:A huge reason why white flight was so bad in places like Gary, Indiana and East St. Louis, Illinois wasn't just that the white people were being racist and left town--it was that they took all of the businesses and industries with them and left minorities to rot. Fremont is like the total opposite of those places. The fact that some cities faced worse consequences from white flight doesn't mean that white flight was exclusive to them. The reason Fremont and most parts of the bay area didn't see the same economic consequences of white flight and deindustrialization as Gary or East St. Louis, is because the Bay Area has a highly diverse economy and is a highly desirable place, and that attracted a ton of people (mostly immigrants) at the same time that tons of whites were leaving. There's a massive tourism industry, financial industry, tech industry, a bunch of highly rated universities, etc in addition to the typical blue collar industrial jobs (which are now in large part a shell of their 1940 self). And there were also cultural movements that attracted people from around the world, like the summer of love/hippie poo poo. Though there are some suburbs like say, Richmond, or neighborhoods like the Bayview/Hunters Point in SF, or west Oakland that did end up in a similar position as a city like Gary, in regards to severely-negative consequences derived from white flight, deindustrialization (whether it's white-flight connected or not) and institutional racism. Look at SF for example. It's very prosperous, yet it would be dumb to say that white flight never occurred in SF. In 1940 it was 95% white, and it's now 42% white. The years after world war II saw increasing deindustrialization in the city, which obviously was a contributing factor to the decreasing white population, as was the allure of the suburban life. Yet 1940 is also the year that SF saw the beginning of a boom in its black population (initially to work in the navy shipyards and port) that didn't stop until 1970, as well as a boom in the asian and latino populations that have never stopped (and now SF's population is at its highest ever)...and the majority of those people didn't move to SF because it was seen as having no opportunities. More like the opposite; it's always been a prosperous city. But white flight definitely did happen too. And as another poster mentioned, it is true that a lot of the migration of whites out of cities was due to economic reasons (such as post war deindustrialization), or the new american dream of living in the suburbs instead of the city, but of course racism played a big part too, including in Fremont and literally everywhere else in the Bay Area. There used to be a large KKK presence in the east bay, San Leandro was a "sundown town", chinese people in SF would be in danger of getting beaten if they left chinatown (even as late as the 1970s), latinos and black people were rejected when trying to rent or buy in white neighborhoods (or if they did manage to buy, they were greeted by a mob of rock-throwing white residents, and had people shoot at their house, as was the case at least once in SF), which caused them to get concentrated in a few (formerly white) areas. And in the case of black residents especially, their neighborhoods were heavily neglected for decades by the mostly white government, resulting in some of the most crime-ridden big-city neighborhoods in America, Some of the public housing in SF (mostly populated by black people, as it was one of the only places they could live in SF due to racism, and nowadays mostly because of massive gentrification elsewhere in the city) was so neglected for 70 years straight, that a decade ago they were rated as among the most dilapidated and dangerous projects in the entire nation, by the US dept of Housing and Urban development. poo poo, the first public housing development to ever be foreclosed upon by the feds due to dangerous living conditions was in SF (the geneva towers, which were overrun with drug dealers, and had management that was pocketing all of the money meant for security and maintenance). Rah! fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jul 3, 2016 |
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Jul 3, 2016 21:16
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icantfindaname posted:Gentrification This is what I would go with. If blue collar whites were being replaced by hipsters no one would imagine anything else; but because in this case instead of hipsters it's asian techies it *must* be racism!
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Jul 3, 2016 22:03
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why do some of you white posters ignore when i bring up how there are neighborhoods in fremont where blue collar whites got replaced not by asian techies, but by working class latinos and asians instead
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Jul 3, 2016 22:14
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Because blue collar whites aren't moving into the state and class matters more than race in this instance? Like what is the correct proportion of whites in your opinion? Does Cupertino have the right white:asian ratio at 30:60? Sunnvale at 34:40? Santa Clara is 36:37. San Jose is 42:32. Which of these cities is the most racist in your opinion? All of them?
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Jul 3, 2016 22:29
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Family Values posted:This is what I would go with. If blue collar whites were being replaced by hipsters no one would imagine anything else; but because in this case instead of hipsters it's asian techies it *must* be racism! I didn't realize poor hispanics were "asian techies". You've got some weird definitions of words.
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Jul 3, 2016 22:33
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Family Values posted:Because blue collar whites aren't moving into the state and class matters more than race in this instance? Like what is the correct proportion of whites in your opinion? Does Cupertino have the right white:asian ratio at 30:60? Sunnvale at 34:40? Santa Clara is 36:37. San Jose is 42:32. Which of these cities is the most racist in your opinion? All of them? "no war but class war" shrieks the man who is only disadvantaged by class
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Jul 3, 2016 22:35
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Anyone want to actually post in-flow out-flow trends by race/income in Fremont or are we just going to anecdote and race/class-bait each other to death?
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Jul 3, 2016 22:45
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:why do some of you white posters ignore when i bring up how there are neighborhoods in fremont where blue collar whites got replaced not by asian techies, but by working class latinos and asians instead So what should 'blue collar whites' have done?
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Jul 3, 2016 22:47
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Sir Unimaginative posted:So what should 'blue collar whites' have done? Not turned tail and fled to another town the second someone non-white moved in down the block.
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Jul 3, 2016 22:51
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Sir Unimaginative posted:So what should 'blue collar whites' have done? I'm sure some of them had legitimate reasons for leaving. I'm also sure that some left on a "coloreds moving in makes me nervous" basis.
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Jul 3, 2016 22:52
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Small Frozen Thing posted:I'm sure some of them had legitimate reasons for leaving. I'm also sure that some left on a "coloreds moving in makes me nervous" basis. yeah this i mean, there are scenarios where a blue collar white person got priced out by an asian techie, but  at extrapolating that to all the white people who left fremont over the past quarter century (and as i noted, many left for places like pleasanton or san ramon, which historically have been whiter and have more expensive housing stock than fremont does)
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Jul 3, 2016 22:55
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Trabisnikof posted:Anyone want to actually post in-flow out-flow trends by race/income in Fremont or are we just going to anecdote and race/class-bait each other to death? I don't see data that narrow, but this report has data for the county and Bay Area: http://reports.abag.ca.gov/sotr/2015/section3-changing-population.php 
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Jul 3, 2016 22:55
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Small Frozen Thing posted:I'm sure some of them had legitimate reasons for leaving. I'm also sure that some left on a "coloreds moving in makes me nervous" basis. Okay, how do you convince white racists to stay in their homes? Can you reason with them, or do you have to somehow make them stay? Is it possible to be white in America without being racist? Can you train a racist to keep their racism in check, make them prosocial (or at least not antisocial) somehow? Is this even a worthwhile endeavor? dont be mean to me fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jul 3, 2016 |
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Jul 3, 2016 23:13
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I'm really enjoying watching people with terrible opinions continue to threadshit in defense of white power. Those greedy working class Latinos keep gentrifying the neighborhood, displacing all those poor blue collar whites.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:34
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Trabisnikof posted:Anyone want to actually post in-flow out-flow trends by race/income in Fremont or are we just going to anecdote and race/class-bait each other to death? http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/cities/Fremont.htm Census data from 1960 to 2010. Afaik nothing tracks movement per se but definitely trivalley area (Lafayette, walnut creek, Danville, Pleasanton, Livermore, Dublin) was predominately "white flight" (irrespective for reasons tho prolly lot of cheap housing with "low crime"/"better schools" was a big factor you'll have heard) in the late 70s to early 90s as they left Oakland and such for cheaper homes and poo poo like that. You can see their population exploding in the 80s to 90s Fremont doesn't seem to be a real case for it other than just less white population growth than others, at least not until 200s and that's probably just changing demographics as a trend. Oakland was definitely a big example as about 100k whites left each decade between 60s->70s->80s. Tho that's been reversing a bit and they lost almost 50k of their African American population between 2000 and 2010. 2020 census will be VERY interesting to see. Xaris fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jul 3, 2016 |
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Jul 3, 2016 23:37
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Shbobdb posted:I'm really enjoying watching people with terrible opinions continue to threadshit in defense of white power. I like how we keep hearing 'but what about the latinos!' when this started out as a discussion about asian/white relations.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:47
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Family Values posted:I like how we keep hearing 'but what about the latinos!' when this started out as a discussion about asian/white relations. Well, if we can extrapolate from you, they're doing pretty poorly.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:51
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Family Values posted:I like how we keep hearing 'but what about the latinos!' when this started out as a discussion about asian/white relations. Asians are taking the jobs and housing of honest white people. White pride worldwide. Yeah, it started out as people blaming techie Asians. When it was pointed out that the "techie asians" were a mix of working class Latinos and Asians, you doubles down on your white persecution complex.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:51
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Shbobdb posted:Yeah, it started out as people blaming techie Asians. When it was pointed out that the "techie asians" were a mix of working class Latinos and Asians, you doubles down on your white persecution complex. I for one haven't assigned any blame. All I've done is link to census data and express the opinion that Fremont is a poo poo example of 'white flight'.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:57
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Family Values posted:I for one haven't assigned any blame. All I've done is link to census data and express the opinion that Fremont is a poo poo example of 'white flight'. Fremont white population, 1960: 98.3% Fremont white population, 2010: 32.8% Nope, no white flight there! 
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Jul 4, 2016 00:15
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Rah! posted:Fremont white population, 1960: 98.3% To be fair you have to look at the total number of people. You're comparing a population of 40k to 214k and it's true that by 2010, there was a decrease in total, it's also common in all cities as olds die. Fremont retained about the same white population until the end of 2000 and it was mostly other segments grew much faster. Sure it's an example but a very minor tangential example and isn't really a great example compared to Oakland. Also lol at Walnut Creek http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/cities/WalnutCreek.htm
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Jul 4, 2016 00:22
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Rah! posted:Fremont white population, 1960: 98.3% Looks to me like the white population has grown by 28% in that period if the population numbers are correct.
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Jul 4, 2016 00:32
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It's true that the white population of Fremont grew in raw numbers up until 1990 (though it dropped as a percentage), as the city grew massively. But after 1990? 1990: white: 122,608 - 70.7% 2000: white: 96,968 - 47.7% non-hispanic white: 84,149 - 41.4% 2010: white: 70,320 - 32.8% non-hispanic white: 56,766 - 26.5% (non-hispanic white was not a category in the 1990 census)
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Jul 4, 2016 00:45
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I'm gonna magically not get priced the gently caress out of the bay area because it would be the anti-racist thing to do.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:26
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White flight is always discussed in the context of the negative impacts of racist behavior. What were/are the actual negative impacts of a decline in white people in Fremont, CA since 1990? If there were no significant negative impacts, then who loving cares? If a bunch of racist white people left for whatever reason, and yet the region prospered, then hey maybe let's focus on the places where the behavior of racist white people is actually causing harm, and then we can wring our hands uselessly in this thread at an actual problem? Do we really think it'd be an important thing to try to attract white people to move to Fremont? How or why would that help anyone? Gentrification for example is a very serious problem in the Bay Area. It is still the case that people of color, especially black and hispanic, on average earn a lot less; and people earning less are being forced out of the Bay Area in droves. Personally I think we need to build a shitload more housing, and we need to do it by densification rather than sprawl. Racist white people block densification because it'll change the character of their precious neighborhoods and maybe that will lower their property values and make them live near apartments where you know, the poors live. (poors = minorities, who as we all know are dangerous and make the schools worse with their bad grades, etc.)
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Jul 4, 2016 01:44
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White Flight is good IMO if it doesn't absolutely destroy the neighborhood.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:45
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White people dont always block densification They'll sometimes allow for luxury condominiums and shopping centers
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Jul 4, 2016 01:46
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Bip Roberts posted:White Flight is good IMO if it doesn't absolutely destroy the neighborhood. I mean, Fremont isn't just "not destroyed" dude. Let's not pretend I'm drawing some kind of racist line where as long as the abandoned neighborhoods aren't literally war zones, it's OK. Fremont is an affluent upscale city in one of the most affluent and prosperous regions in the richest country on earth.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:53
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Gentrification is not a problem. Housing prices being high is a problem. Gentrification is merely an excuse people use to shift blame off of those who prevent more housing from being built.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:57
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Bip Roberts posted:I'm gonna magically not get priced the gently caress out of the bay area because it would be the anti-racist thing to do. No one is saying that white people getting priced out means those white people are racist. But some people were pretending that no white people ever left Fremont for racist reasons, which is goofy as gently caress.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:11
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Rah! posted:No one is saying that white people getting priced out means those white people are racist. But some people were pretending that no white people ever left Fremont for racist reasons, which is goofy as gently caress. This. This was the entire origin of the conversation, and why we were ragging on Family Values, because he was claiming this.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:22
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Spazzle posted:Gentrification is not a problem. Housing prices being high is a problem. Gentrification is merely an excuse people use to shift blame off of those who prevent more housing from being built. So according to you only poor people are against building more housing? Some of the most rabid NIMBYs are rich as gently caress, and like development to stay strangled so that their land values stay as high as possible, and so their parking stays as painless as possible, and so they can keep their views, and private tennis clubs, and keep the dirty poors away and what not. Or because of some weird misguided sense of what a city is "supposed" to be (which in SF's case, is apparently a quaint european fishing village). And yeah, gentrification is a problem, that breaks up communities and pushes poor/middle class people to fringe suburbs. It even makes some people homeless...and it would be solved in large part by building enough housing so that a bunch of rich people have more options for housing than moving into the same housing units where a bunch of poorer people already live.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:25
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Small Frozen Thing posted:This. This was the entire origin of the conversation, and why we were ragging on Family Values, because he was claiming this. But that's a good thing and now they're doing meth and loving their cousins in Tracy where they belong.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:55
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Rah! posted:So according to you only poor people are against building more housing? Some of the most rabid NIMBYs are rich as gently caress, and like development to stay strangled so that their land values stay as high as possible, and so their parking stays as painless as possible, and so they can keep their views, and private tennis clubs, and keep the dirty poors away and what not. Or because of some weird misguided sense of what a city is "supposed" to be (which in SF's case, is apparently a quaint european fishing village). Rah, your head is so far up your rear end that you spent 2 paragraphs ranting, then proposing literally the same solution I did. Besides providing more housing, what other way would you use to prevent people from being allowed to move into places they want to be in? Should landlords only be allowed to to rent to people of specific racial and economic groups? Should home owners only be allowed to sell to a preapproved audience? What specific measures besides building more housing (something I explicitly agree with) should be taken.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:14
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Is there any way to see past demographics at schools or anything for Fremont? I grew up in an area there that is now 90+% Asian, and I am just kind of curious what the demographics were for that specific area rather than the entire city when I was there. I would guess something like 65% white, 13% Hispanic, 20% Asian (though more representation from "poorer" Asian counties like the Philippines compared to now), and maybe 2% black. I am probably way off though. I would also be curious to compare the rate of white people leaving Fremont to a city that has stayed fairly white like Danville, to see if the change in demographic is more due to white people leaving, or just due to Asian people moving in. I kind of feel it is the latter. I always envisioned white flight in the racist sense as a loss of population, where the white people just get up and move once they feel the neighborhood is not white enough. Purely anecdotal, but it feels like a lot of the white population in Fremont were boomers who bought houses there in the 70's and 80's for 65k, then retired and sold them for 1m and moved somewhere cheap, more of a trickle of white people leaving as they retire or whatever, and then getting replaced by a trickle of Asian people with money as houses become available rather than an abrupt minorities in -> whites out type of white flight. It seems like there is essentially a 33% Asian premium on the house price there, where Asians will pay the 33% mark-up to be in an Asian community with good schools, but other demographics won't, so the demographic shift just gets more extreme over time. At least the middle of the peninsula can use its reasonable commute time to SF or silicon valley to justify its extreme prices, Fremont is terrible to get to SF and not really any faster to SV, but the price is comparable. Plus it is a really bland, even by suburb standards. Also, visiting my wife's family on the east coast, and one of her friends was engaged to a Chinese citizen. We were talking, she just knew we were from CA but not where, and she mentioned they were thinking of moving to Fremont. I went to college in CA, and even my roommates from Southern CA had never heard of Fremont, but some random Chinese person who has never even been to CA had apparently heard of it. She was saying Realtors go give presentations in China about places to invest in, and apparently Fremont is well known. I did laugh about the Fremont guys in big black trucks. In the 90's my friends and I always called those Fremont Cowboys. They had never done any sort of farm work or manual labor, but would have a giant truck, cowboy hat, and boots while pretending to be from the country. Pain of Mind fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 03:26
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You are receiving this broadcast as a dream...We are transmitting from the year one nine... nine nine ...You are receiving this broadcast in order t